The 5th Seal : Global martyrdom of Christians and destruction of Christianity

[R. Hartono]

40 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Still traveling down that wrong path rabbit hole I see. No Seals have been opened, the Seals DO NOTHING anyway, they are only to give us an IMAGERY of Jesus opening up the Scrolls that hold the Wrath, with each Seal that (WOW) have the Scrolls still SEALED, Jesus prophesies what will soon come when the 7th Seal is finally opened up, hence it is over in Rev. 8. The church in general is so confused, no wonder we have no unity, no power.

 

1.) The Church will not be on earth, anyone who can't see tat I trust nothing they say about Eschatology in general. If you can't get the very simple things right why would I listen about the more complex issues?

2.) Those John saw in Rev. 7 came out of the Church Age which was great tribulation, just not the greatest ever.

3.) Those the A.C. kill are born again  after the Pre Trib Rapture, and he only rules of the E.U. and the Mediterranean Sea Region.

Meaning no ne can be Raptured during the 70th week and Rev. 20:4 agrees with this.

The Anti-Christ will wipe out Islam and ALL False Religion, and Martyr all who refuse to accept the Mark of the Beast, but he only rules in the E.U. and the Mediterranean Sea Region he conquers.

Come on brother, reread this stuff and pray for guidance. 

Thank you. 

I Will not debate whos correct

Eschatology does not save Christians.

Only if we remain humble and love others as much as we love our belly, and feed other belly in need.

Edited May 1, 2023 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

23 hours ago, Selah7 said:

There’s no pretrib rapture going to happen.  Don’t be deceived.

 

Thank you Selah for your opinion.

Who are the great multitude of Revelation 7 then ?

[R. Hartono]

On 4/30/2023 at 10:04 PM, DeighAnn said:

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Doesn't say EVERYONE but those who SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE.  

What do you see as taking place SPIRITUALLY, as it is a spiritual war, rather than this CARNAL side put forth, as far as death is concerned? 

Thanks for your opinion DeighAnn.

Isnt that Radicalism that grows into terrorism that cause martyrdom of the 5th seal.

What is seen as taking place spiritually ? Isnt that the Falling Away.

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thank you. 

I Will not debate whos correct

Eschatology does not save Christians.

Only if we remain humble and love others as much as we love our belly, and feed other belly in need.

If I believed that to be true I would just ignore most wrong posts and never push back in general on these things.

BUT............It will cost many people to go to hell. 

Anyone who misses the Pre Trib Rapture has to adapt real quick, its die or renounce Jesus (to NEW CONVERTS) all alone and many New Converts will no doubt be pressured by an Evil never before seen. The Anti-Christ and his ilk will bring a Girlfriend, Wife, Kid or Parent out and threaten to kill them also unless you renounce and accept the Beast. So, many who miss the Rapture will not have enough UMPPPP to make it to heaven, they will give in via threats.

NOW..........young people being told they will go through the 70th week troubles no matter what they do may say, well, since I have top go through these troubles anyway, I might as well wait, and make that firm decision at that time. Whereas IF.......they were told the cold hard facts, Jesus is not going to allow his bride to go through the Tribulation which INCULDES His Wrath where 1/3 of the whole world burns up (DO YOU GET THAT? 1/3 burns up) and billions of people die, BUT........If you do not accept Jesus now, you will not be at the Marriage Supper in Heaven for those 7 years, you will indeed go through this 70th week tribulation which is NOW UPON US !! Then show them how its here and if those same people would get saved (the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom) they will gain heaven if preached the truth, if they are fed a wrong assumption, it will indeed cost many, many lives my friend.

God Bless

Edited May 1, 2023 by Revelation Man

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Still traveling down that wrong path rabbit hole I see. No Seals have been opened, the Seals DO NOTHING anyway, they are only to give us an IMAGERY of Jesus opening up the Scrolls that hold the Wrath, with each Seal that (WOW) have the Scrolls still SEALED, Jesus prophesies what will soon come when the 7th Seal is finally opened up, hence it is over in Rev. 8. The church in general is so confused, no wonder we have no unity, no power.

YOU SAY "No seals have been opened" 

yet it is written THE LAMB OPENED THEM, do you think the book was RESEALED to be unsealed later? 

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

NO WONDER the CHURCHES of today can't bring in new people. 

IF WHAT IS WRITTEN ISN'T GODS TRUTH, then what is the point?  

Maybe you should try to go with something MORE LIKE


"you don't believe THE HORSES HAVE BEEN RELEASED yet" OR something like that.   AT LEAST so there are no stumbling blocks LIKE THIS to deal with that way.  BUT YOUR approach just hurts EVERY Christian, IMHO



If the seals are the wrath of God

THEN WHAT 'LITTLE' SEASON ARE THESE GUYS WAITING FOR THAT COMES AFTER THE WRATH OF GOD in which their fellowservants are being KILLED LIKE THEY WERE? 

Wouldn't it just be easier to have the 6th seal BE THAT 'LITTLE SEASON' you know, with the sun putting on sackcloth (just like the two witnesses God sends) and the moon turning to blood....

 

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I am not asking you a question; 

I am asking you to ask yourself a question, that's all.  

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thank you Selah for your opinion.

Who are the great multitude of Revelation 7 then ?

Those who Jesus said He would set free IN THAT DAY.  

All those in the graves that GOD gave Him

Those He led when He ascended on high

And all Christians

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

WHEN WOULD THOSE THINGS TAKE PLACE?

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Lk 4


NOT AT SOME LATER DATE or else He would not have had to close the book.  DO THE WORDS OF GOD GIVE US PROOF THAT WOULD BE DONE?

 

Matt
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

Ephesians 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


why is there NO PTR?

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by DeighAnn
to add 'all Christians'

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone who misses the Pre Trib Rapture has to adapt real quick, its die or renounce Jesus (to NEW CONVERTS) all alone or to New Converts who will be pressured by an Evil never before seen. The Anti-Christ and his ilk will bring a Girlfriend, Wife, Kid or Parent out and threaten to kill them also unless you renounce and accept the Beast. So, many who kiss the Rapture will not have enough UMPPPP to make it to heaven, they will give in via threats.

How is ANY OF THAT deception?  THE ANTI CHRIST isn't the opposite of CHRIST, as in making people 'renounce' Christ and BEING EVIL and killing them when they won't worship him

it is the IMPOSTER of Christ, the INSTEAD OF

yet he will sure SEEM to be the savior of the world.  BUT 'don't be deceived by any man'....666 the number of a man...JUST LIKE CHRIST is the SON OF MAN....

500. antichristos ►
Strong's Concordance
antichristos: antichrist, (one who opposes Christ)
Original Word: ἀντίχριστος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: antichristos
Phonetic Spelling: (an-tee'-khris-tos)
Definition: antichrist, (one who opposes Christ)
Usage: antichrist, either one who puts himself in the place of, or the enemy (opponent) of the Messiah.
HELPS Word-studies
500 antíxristos (from 473 /antí, "opposite to, in place of" and 5547 /Xristós, "Christ") – properly, opposite to Christ; someone acting in place of (against) Christ; "Antichrist."




THAT IS THE DECEPTION.  He performs SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HE IS SO GOOD AT PRETENDING TO BE CHRIST THAT MOST OF THE WORLD

willingly WORSHIPS THE IMAGE.  He will be SOO GOOD that even GODS ELECT, if the time wasn't shortened would be DECEIVED.  


It DOESN'T MAKE any sense FOR Satan to be making Chrisitans DENOUNCE CHRIST,

HOW IS THAT FOOLING ANYONE?  

2 CORINTHIANS 11

12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" Mark 13:14 KJV


"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV


Why do you think there is a FALLING AWAY instead of a MASS SLAUGHTER?  Because they ARE DECEIVED into believing the MESSIAH has returned....


"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18 KJV


YOU KNOW WHO ELSE 'IS SEEN TO ARRIVE LIKE THAT' but after the workings of Satan?    


26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Just to put forth another way, THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN to be, not assumed to be

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thanks for your opinion DeighAnn.

Isnt that Radicalism that grows into terrorism that cause martyrdom of the 5th seal.

What is seen as taking place spiritually ? Isnt that the Falling Away.

THAT is what would have to TAKES PLACE in the 'little season', if that were truth. 



they are ALREADY THERE....BEFORE the little season.  They have been being KILLED like sheep led to the slaughter for a couple thousand years.  They are those who IN WANTING A BETTER RESURRECTION would allow themselves to be tortured EVEN MORE, rather than the MERCY OF BEING KILLED.  

The church has NO CLUE that DEATH comes IN TRIBULATION that isn't even NAMED GREAT TRIBULATION. 

Tribulation comes in TORTURES that end in death THAT AREN'T even called GREAT tribulation.  

I just thought of something. 

THE CHURCH can't be PRE TRIB raptured AT ALL, because trib is promised to all, 


SO

the CLOSEST IT COULD GET to WOULD BE PRE GREAT TRIB RAPTURED.   And during REGULAR tribulation men are tortured and killed

SO NO NEED FOR A RAPTURE AT ALL......

 

[Selah7]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thank you Selah for your opinion.

Who are the great multitude of Revelation 7 then ?

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

- Revelation 7:9-14 (KJV)

Here’s my understanding (Lord help me).

This multitude of people have all been saved and come from all nations and languages.  This is not a  pretrib rapture, as many believe.  It is all the Christian people who have ever lived and have passed on.  This is the multitude that John sees standing before the Lord in their white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, and their sins made white as snow.

 

[WilliamL]

  

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Who are the great multitude of Revelation 7 then ?

The raptured saints, who will ascend just after the physical cataclysms of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29. So they will include the 5th Seal martyrs.

On 4/30/2023 at 3:59 AM, R. Hartono said:

However, the global martyrdom of Christians will happen only in the 7 years (a little season) of Great Tribulation.

The Trib. will be a whole lot shorter than that:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1179-forty-days/

See also:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

-- from which the following:

Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12

And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.