The God Who Is versus the God most believe in

[Michael37]

On 5/20/2023 at 3:26 PM, LiveWire said:

Nowhere in Scripture does it come right out say God is a Person, or Person's.

Not hard to find evidence:

Gen 1:26-27  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  (27)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 

[JohnD]

From Quora Digest:

Does the man Jesus of the Oneness Pentecostalism & the Jesus-Only live with the Holy Spirit, equal to the Father (John 5:26), but Jesus of Trinitarians lives lowly with either unholy or less holy spirit, so the Son is "less holier" than the Father?

 

The Bible describes Jesus as one who preexisted his incarnation (his humanity):

John 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And that the Word was not only with God, the Word was God which is confirmed in:

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Same time frame (the beginning), the Word which John 1:1 declared is God and is with God (here referred to as the Word of life echoing John 1:4 “in him was life…” ). And calling him (the Word) “that ETERNAL LIFE which was with the Father.

Eternal God (the Word) WITH Eternal God (the Father) with no indication whatsoever of inferiority or superiority between the two. The lack of an article in the Greek in John 1:1 actually indicates that God the Word is the same in nature as God the Father whom he was with.

This so-called “missing” article is called noun kai noun in Greek grammar (article + noun + and noun = two of the same kind of something). Distinction, yet the same in kind / nature.

“The Babe was with the New York Yankees (noun and (kai) New York Yankees (noun) was the Babe.”

The Babe btw was George Herman Babe Ruth…

The Word was with (the) God and God was the Word is how the phrase in John 1:1 appears in Greek. The Christadelphians (who came up with the ruse) and the Jehovah’s Witnesses who bought into the lie that this missing article in Greek makes the Word a lesser god) is a lie from the pit of hell. A lie that in John 20:17 (in the same Greek noun kai noun) would make the Father a lessor god who is referred to with noun kai noun twice in the verse.

Jesus said in the original Greek: “I go to the Father of me (noun) and (kai) Father yours (noun) to the God of me (noun) and (kai) God yours (noun)…

Though he is the same Father / same God, there is the distinction between his being God and Father to the man Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 2:5) and his being God and Father to us. Namely that the Father is the Creator of his humanity (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5)... and the preincarnate Jesus (who is God the Word) is the LONE Creator of everything and everyone else that was created (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24) ← which indicates he did so alone by himself.

Those who attempt to undeify Jesus (specifically God the Word) love to cite passages like John 20:17 to mislead people from the truth, “How can God have a God?” When clearly the Bible teaches that Jesus is both God and man, and that in his humanity he has a Creator (the Father). God the Word did not create the body / humanity of Jesus. God the Father did not create anything other than the body / humanity of Jesus:

John 1:14 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In his Spirit Jesus is equal to God:

Philippians 2:6 (KJV)

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Being in the form of God in the Greek morphe theos huparchon is best understood as never ceasing to be God. This eternal God is clearly declared to be equal with God.

With the fuller understanding of God and which individual in the Godhead is which, we know that:

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God the Word created the heaven and the earth.

And:

Luke 3:38

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God the Word.

The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit were always present together from eternity past (John 1:1–2, 1 John 1:1–2, Genesis 1:1–2). But God the Word acted alone by himself in creating all things created in the beginning.

Which leads me to the final point: the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit.

While it is true the Spirit of God can come upon someone in power and inspiration and encouragement… this does not de-personify him as some force or thing like team spirit or being psyched… the Spirit of God is God:

Acts 5:3–4 (KJV)

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

He has been sent into the world as the divine magistrate of King Jesus in his absence (Hebrews 8:1–5 / John 14:26 / John 15:26) ← Jesus said “if I do not leave, the Spirit of God would not come (John 16:7)

The Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost / Comforter / Spirit of Truth is a person with thoughts and feelings (you can grieve the Holy Spirit see Ephesians 4:30) and is as much God as the Father or the Word.

[LiveWire]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Not hard to find evidence:

Gen 1:26-27  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  (27)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 

And when they point blank asked Jesus who/what is God, Jesus said, 24 God is Spirit, so, we are indeed made in His Image.   He's Spirit, we are physical, but we are also, spirit.

 

And if you toss Jesus was flesh, what was He as the WORD, before, He became flesh?

God is SPIRIT!

[JohnD]

Someone asked about the passage:

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And what were our thoughts about Yahweh repenting (changing his mind / regretting):

This text is one of several I believe teaches that the preincarnate Jesus (who is Yahweh) took a lesser omniscient position in order to deal with temporal beings like humans. Philippians 2 mentions he “emptied” himself while never ceasing to be God and equal with God to become the Savior.

And the Holy Spirit, for that matter, in 1 Corinthians 2:10 must “search the mind of God…” indicating he also must have limited his capacity to know all things (which is apparently reserved only for the Father see Acts 1:7).

That these distinct offices of the mission of God (i.e. the salvation of the lost) were not the eternal state of the individuals in the Godhead (because it says Jesus “emptied” himself… not that he was always in that emptier state). And of the three, only the Holy Spirit and Jesus have dealt directly with humanity. The Father (once we learn that Yahweh is actually Jesus†) is omnipresent / omnipotent throughout eternity but hardly interactive with creation except as overall, ultimate, absolute authority.

† compare John 1:3 with Colossians 1:16, and Isaiah 44:24 Jesus is the Lone Creator of all things created in the beginning. The Father and Holy Spirit were present (1 John 1:1–2 / Genesis 1:1–2) but it was the preincarnate Jesus who did all the creating (John 1:1–3 / Isaiah 44:24).

The eternal state of all-knowingness must therefore hinder or severely restrict interaction with temporal beings (human beings). The three individuals who are the one God (before the emptying) would know one another’s thoughts as if they were their own. There would be no need for communication. And there would be the expectation that all three knows what the other knows, thinks, feels…

This would be completely alien to human beings that though we advance through time and eternity with an ever present ( “now” ) awareness, we have no concept of eternal all-knowingness nor could we interact directly with it.

In this emptied state, Yahweh changed his mind on occasion (he wanted to wipe out the entire Hebrew race and start over again with Moses until Moses convinced him not to). He regretted making human beings (which is the point the OP made in this thread).

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

And when they point blank asked Jesus who/what is God, Jesus said, {John 4:} 24 God is Spirit, so, we are indeed made in His Image.   He's Spirit, we are physical, but we are also, spirit.

 

And if you toss Jesus was flesh, what was He as the WORD, before, He became flesh?

God is SPIRIT!

This is also why references to God AND the LORD Jesus appear in scripture  for Jesus has the additional human nature the Father and the Spirit do not have. He is God... incarnate.

[BibleWords]

16 hours ago, JohnD said:

You are imposing your belief on the text.

What it actually says is:

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

And from John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 we learn that this divine individual was none other than the preincarnate Jesus.

 

This helps us to understand how Jesus is the only Son of the Father. The only thing the Father created is the body of the Son (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

 

All three individuals of the Godhead were present at the time of creation (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) but the preincarnate Jesus acted alone by himself in creating all things created in the beginning.

 

“I”, “alone”, “by myself” do not imply that the person designated is Jesus alone.

1 Cor. 8:6–“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.”

This verse declares that we have ALL THINGS from the Father and through Jesus Christ.  Both are equally involved in creation as is the Holy Spirit.

I am not imposing any beliefs on Scripture.  This is exactly what it says, word for word.

All three members of the Trinity are equally involved in creation.

 

[Jaydub]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:02 AM, JohnD said:

Footnote: YHVH (Yahweh) often translated "the LORD" is defined as that which is eternal, existing with no beginning or end because they exists with no beginning or end. But this same eternality applied to all three who are the one God. So Yahweh (the LORD) is a name / description that applies to each. Think of it like a surname. And the way you determine which individual in the Godhead the name Yahweh applies to in a given text is by the context of that text

I was ready to have a slight disagreement with you until I came to this foot note. I am in agreement with you. I thought at first you were saying Jesus is Yahweh without the Father being Yahweh or the Holy Spirit.

You said, Yahweh the LORD is a name/description that applies to each.

I have said similar, Yahweh the Father, Yahweh the Son, Yahweh the Holy Spirit, but even that I don't think is correct. I believe its more like, well, like your hand. Raise your right arm and wiggle your fingers and say what is this? Your hand....thats right, you don't say its your thumb and pointer and ring finger, middle finger and pinky, you say  its your hand.

I believe when you see the name Yahweh in the old testament you are looking at the Father the Son and th  Holy spirit. Even in the new testament Jesus said, I can do nothing on my own, it is the Father working in me.

Philip said to Jesus show us the Father. Jesus said Philip don't you know me, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Even in the new testament when we look at Jesus we see the trinity at work or  YHWH at work because Jesus does nothing without the Father

YHWH = trinity= Father YHWH, The Son YHWH, The Holy Spirit YHWH

[JohnD]

Yahweh, as I believe I mentioned before in this thread, is defined in Exodus 3:14-15 to mean the Eternal ( I exist because  I exist) which applies to all three.

Yahweh the Father Yahweh the Son Yahweh the Holy Spirit is correct. Think of it like a surname.

Yahweh the Father

Isaiah 53:10 (LEB)
10 Yet Yahweh was pleased to crush him; he made him sick. If he places his life a guilt offering, he will see offspring. He will prolong days, and the will of Yahweh will succeed in his hand.

1. The Father is the one to whom the sin debt was paid (the pleasure would be best understood as the debt was satisfied)

2. The Son is the one who is being crushed (paying the sin debt of humanity)

Yahweh the Son (the Word)

Isaiah 44:24 (LEB)
24 Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, and he who formed you in the womb: “I am Yahweh, who made everything, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth—who was with me?—

1. The Son is the Redeemer. The Father is the one to whom the redemption price is paid.

2. This lone Creator of all things created in the beginning we learn was the preincarnate Jesus (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2)

Yahweh the Holy Spirit

Judges 6:34 (LEB)
34 So the Spirit of Yahweh took possession of Gideon, and he blew on the trumpet, and the Abiezrites were called to follow him.

 

 

[tatwo]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:21 AM, Michael37 said:

Gen 1:26-27  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  (27)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The man in the image and likeness of God is "Christ...Head (Yahshua) & Body (members)" who is now emerging..."He"...is the "Son of God." The "Spirit" in "Christ...the Son of God" is eternal God the Father Himself.

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Eph 4:5-6)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isa 9:6)

"And my Father himself, who gave me this mission, has also testified that I am his Son. But you have never heard his voice nor seen his face, nor does his Word truly live inside of you, for you refuse to believe in me or to embrace me as God’s messenger. “You are busy analyzing the Scriptures, frantically poring over them in hopes of gaining eternal life. Everything you read points to me, yet you still refuse to come to me so I can give you the life you’re looking for—eternal life!" (Joh 5:37-40)

The study or analysis and subsequent acquired knowledge from the bible does not equate to an accurate understanding of who God is. That is exactly what the Lord Yahshua Christ told the murderous Jews that were in His hearing in John 5.

The only way to actually know who God is...is...via a direct revelation from the Holy Spirit of God Himself...that revelation is to our spirit. That's why even when Yahshua was physically standing in their midst...talking to them...He told them "You have never heard His voice, seen His face, and His word is not in you...yet you refuse to come to me" They did not see Him as He is.

They...the Jews in John 5 and those today who "choose only" to know the Lord via  study alone...cannot know Him as He is...He requires faith in His very Spirit whom those who are "born again" have within.

Tatwo...:)

[JohnD]

On 5/21/2023 at 3:32 PM, BibleWords said:

“I”, “alone”, “by myself” do not imply that the person designated is Jesus alone.

1 Cor. 8:6–“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.”

This verse declares that we have ALL THINGS from the Father and through Jesus Christ.  Both are equally involved in creation as is the Holy Spirit.

I am not imposing any beliefs on Scripture.  This is exactly what it says, word for word.

All three members of the Trinity are equally involved in creation.

 

"from" (Strong's # 1537) the Father

"through" (Strong's # 1223) Jesus Christ

This is one of the verses where one must be particularly certain about the meaning of the original language (that our English translation alone may not distinguish the meanings). Cross referenced with Isaiah 44:24 (which stipulates that the specific acts of creation were carried out by an individual alone by himself) and cross referenced with John 1:14 (which declares the flesh that the Word became was the only creation of the Father) ← confirmed by Hebrews 10:5 and Hebrews 1:5... we have to dig into the meanings of "from" (epsilon xi) and "through" (delta iota).

epsilon xi

1537 ἐκ, ἐκπερισσῶς, ἐκφωνέω [ek, ex /ek/] prep. A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause;

1223 διά [dia /dee·ah/] prep. A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; TDNT 2:65; TDNTA 149; GK 1328; 647 occurrences; AV translates as “by” 241 times, “through” 88 times, “with” 16 times, “for” 58 times, “for … sake” 47 times, “therefore + 5124” 44 times, “for this cause + 5124” 14 times, “because” 53 times, and translated miscellaneously 86 times. 1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.
 

Cross referenced with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24 would have to mean that the one in the Godhead who acted in creating all things (God the Word John 1:1-3 / the Son of God Colossians 1:13 / 16) acting on the authority of the Father which Hebrews 1:2 defines. 

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The preincarnate Jesus is the one in the Godhead who created all things created in the beginning. And later the Father created the body / humanity of the Son (his only actual creation). Clearly Jesus stated in several places that he acts only under the authority of the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6 by itself could be interpreted to mean what @BibleWords indicated if it were not for the distinction in the Greek text of of and through... and of Isaiah 44:24 being so specific about not only the individual Creator but John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:13-16 indicating that individual was the preincarnate Jesus only. 

So with the cross references and Greek distinctions we understand the texts to mean:

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom {who acted] also he {by his authority} made the worlds;

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom {by whose authority} are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are {who actually created} all things, and we by him.

Not that @BibleWords was attempting to isolate 1 Corinthians 8:6... I simply point out that when we amalgamate the texts of scripture in the overall context of scripture (under the tutelage / guidance of the Holy Spirit of course) we arrive at divine intent: what God means and what is actually true. Others have isolated this same 1 Corinthians 8:6 text to attempt to disprove the Trinity (or couple it with John 17:3) stating in either text there is one God the Father... you the only true God... 

The same could be said about Isaiah 43:10-11 Isaiah 44:8...

Isaiah 43:10–11 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 44:8 (KJV)
...ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

From the amalgamation of scripture texts we realize the texts contain the corporate "me" and "I." That any one of the three indicated by the amalgamation of scripture who are the one God can speak for the one God as if that one God was an individual.

I am reminded of what Supreme Chancellor Palpatine said while being arrested by the Jedi (Windu) who said the Senate would decide his fate... "I AM the SENATE!"

1 Corinthians 8:6 and Hebrews 1:2 taken into consideration, Isaiah 44:24 does appear to be another of these corporate "me" statements... until you factor in John 1:14 and other passages specifying that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God the Father.

John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That if (and I only say if for the sake of argument) the preincarnate Jesus acted alone by himself in the beginning creating all things created... and the Father's only creation is that of the body / humanity of Jesus... then it all adds up.

Adam (the son of God in Luke 3:38) is the son of God the Word. While Jesus is the Son of God the Father (John 1:14).