The Nation of Israel - Sign of the Fig Tree

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

I said that because its true.  There are no prophecies of the Church in the OT.  

To say "because it is truth" without posting what it is that makes you to believe that, and then put it on the table for discussion you are making it a personal matter...

(Like the  brother above who gave you a reference from scripture for discussion that he believes that it is about the church and you did what? There are no comments as to why this passage is not about the church from your part or anyone else who may share your belief in this matter..

To say because that is what I believe, or I do not believe that without the reasons is not enough to convince anyone that what you believe is without a margin of error. 

What you believe it is a secondary issue...what are the factual components that you have examined that led you to believe that it is the primary issues to be discussed. 

What are the ground components that led you to believe that? 

Unless you follow someone's else you are looking up to..

On the other hand is there any prophetic about the head of the church...about the Lord of the church...something about him and his where abouts... where the Shepherd is, there we should look for his sheep...no one can be an active Shepherd without the flock of his sheep...

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[JasperWalls11]

19 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

To say "because it is truth" without posting what it is that makes you to believe that, and then put it on the table for discussion you are making it a personal matter...

(Like the  brother above who gave you a reference from scripture for discussion that he believes that it is about the church and you did what? There are no comments as to why this passage is not about the church from your part or anyone else who may share your belief in this matter..

To say because that is what I believe, or I do not believe that without the reasons is not enough to convince anyone that what you believe is without a margin of error. 

What you believe it is a secondary issue...what are the factual components that you have examined that led you to believe that it is the primary issues to be discussed. 

What are the ground components that led you to believe that? 

Unless you follow someone's else you are looking up to..

On the other hand is there any prophetic about the head of the church...about the Lord of the church...something about him and his where abouts... where the Shepherd is, there we should look for his sheep...no one can be an active Shepherd without the flock of his sheep...

 

When I said that it is true, it wasn't about person feelings or points of view.  There are no prophecies in the OT about the Church.  The verse that was given was a prophecy about Israel's rebirth, not the Church.   It is objective true that there are no prophecies about the Church in the OT.  That is not my point of view.  That is an objective fact.  It's like asking me to defend why 2+2 equals 4.  It just does.  That is the same here.  I have asked for prophecies about the Church, and so far, none have been presented.  That's because they are not there.  If I am wrong, the ball is in your court.  Have at it.  It's an open and civil discussion. 

[Biblican]

9 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

Isaiah 66:8 is not a prophecy of the Church.  It is a prophecy of the rebirth of Israel.  The Church and Israel are two different things. The Bible never calls Israel the Church and never calls the Church Israel.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one, too. The context in which the verse in question, coupled with the previous chapters supports the verse as pertaining to Pentecost. Did you read the article I sent?  The previous verse to Isaiah 66:8 is about the Messiah. The big deal about bringing the Jews back to the land after the Babylonian captivity was that the Messiah would come when the temple was rebuilt which He did. Pentecost quickly followed Jesus' resurrection. Ezekiel 36 and 37 deal with the Messiah and the New Covenant being given at that time. The valley of dry bones is also about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit reviving Israel after David their prince, a similitude of Jesus comes.

The Gentiles have been grafted into the Hebrew olive tree and the early church saw themselves as Jews. They don't replace Israel, they are unified with her. As Jesus said there would be one fold and one shepherd. The Jews who say they are Jews and are not mentioned in Revelation are the unbelieving Jews who can be grafted in when they eventually come to faith in Messiah Jesus.

[Biblican]

9 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

LOL, The stuff about the Rothchilds goes back to the blood libels about the Jews controlling world governments, the banks, the media, and so forth is a lot nonsense.  Sorry, not buying it. I am going to say what I said before.   I don't see it the way you see it.  I believe that any discussion between us on this point would not be a useful, edifying or profitable use of my time and so I will just leave it here. You and I will never see eye-to-eye, and we will just have to agree to disagree on this matter. 

One of the Rothschilds said, "Control a nations money and I care not who writes the laws." I am an author, I do research. The banks control the money and they control the world, some of them happen to be Rothschilds. Because the Jews have misinterpreted many Old Testament scriptures many of them  believe that someday they will rule the world with their messiah and the Gentiles will be their servants. I have heard some say this myself. So they will be candidates for deception when the antichrist arrives and trades on their fantasy.

[JasperWalls11]

18 minutes ago, Biblican said:

One of the Rothschilds said, "Control a nations money and I care not who writes the laws." I am an author, I do research. The banks control the money and they control the world, some of them happen to be Rothschilds. Because the Jews have misinterpreted many Old Testament scriptures many of them  believe that someday they will rule the world with their messiah and the Gentiles will be their servants. I have heard some say this myself. So they will be candidates for deception when the antichrist arrives and trades on their fantasy.

There will be a day when the Messiah will rule the world from His Temple in Israel.  That is not the same as saying the Jews will one rule the world.  It is the Messiah, a Jew, who will rule the world, namely Jesus.   That is what we find both the Old and New Testaments.  The millennial or "Messianic" kingdom is written about more in the prophets than any other eschatological matter, by a mile.  The Lord gave many, many prophecies about the Kingdom.  Jesus had several parables that were parables about the Kingdom.  Ezekiel 40-48 is about the Messianic Temple that the Lord will rule from during the Millennium. 

[JasperWalls11]

36 minutes ago, Biblican said:

We will have to agree to disagree on that one, too. The context in which the verse in question, coupled with the previous chapters supports the verse as pertaining to Pentecost. Did you read the article I sent?  The previous verse to Isaiah 66:8 is about the Messiah. The big deal about bringing the Jews back to the land after the Babylonian captivity was that the Messiah would come when the temple was rebuilt which He did. Pentecost quickly followed Jesus' resurrection. Ezekiel 36 and 37 deal with the Messiah and the New Covenant being given at that time. The valley of dry bones is also about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit reviving Israel after David their prince, a similitude of Jesus comes.

The Gentiles have been grafted into the Hebrew olive tree and the early church saw themselves as Jews. They don't replace Israel, they are unified with her. As Jesus said there would be one fold and one shepherd. The Jews who say they are Jews and are not mentioned in Revelation are the unbelieving Jews who can be grafted in when they eventually come to faith in Messiah Jesus.

Yes, the previous verse is about the Messiah, but neither verse is about the Church. Even if the case could be made that it has nothing to do with the rebirth of Israel, the overall context is about the Messianic Kingdom, not the Church.  The Church age does not show up in the Old Testament.  Nothing about the Church is ever given by the OT prophets.  They were overwhelmingly prophesying about the Millennium.

Ezekiel 36 and 37 tell you who and what they are talking about and these prophecies indicate that they pertain to Israel.  

The Jews who say they are Jews but are not, only apply to the Jews in Smyrna, not all unbelieving Jews.  You appear to enjoy assigning values to various texts without regard for context. 

[Biblican]

8 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

There will be a day when the Messiah will rule the world from His Temple in Israel.  That is not the same as saying the Jews will one rule the world.  It is the Messiah, a Jew, who will rule the world, namely Jesus.   That is what we find both the Old and New Testaments.  The millennial or "Messianic" kingdom is written about more in the prophets than any other eschatological matter, by a mile.  The Lord gave many, many prophecies about the Kingdom.  Jesus had several parables that were parables about the Kingdom.  Ezekiel 40-48 is about the Messianic Temple that the Lord will rule from during the Millennium. 

I agree. But the many Jews believe that they will rule the world with their messiah and it is not Jesus.

[Biblican]

8 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

Yes, the previous verse is about the Messiah, but neither verse is about the Church. Even if the case could be made that it has nothing to do with the rebirth of Israel, the overall context is about the Messianic Kingdom, not the Church.  The Church age does not show up in the Old Testament.  Nothing about the Church is ever given by the OT prophets.  They were overwhelmingly prophesying about the Millennium.

Ezekiel 36 and 37 tell you who and what they are talking about and these prophecies indicate that they pertain to Israel.  

The Jews who say they are Jews but are not, only apply to the Jews in Smyrna, not all unbelieving Jews.  You appear to enjoy assigning values to various texts without regard for context. 

The context of the two chapters leading up to the nation in one day verse in Isaiah is about the Gentiles coming to Jesus and they receive a new name which most scholars see as 'Christians."  While the church is not addressed specifically in the Old Testament it is there symbolically in my opinion.

The two chapters in Ezekiel are about Israel, their return to the Holy land after the captivity, the messiah and Pentecost in Ezekiel 37, which is about the birth of the church. As I said, the church isn't mentioned specifically, but it's there symbolically.

According to the Apostle Paul, a Jew is not a Jew unless the are circumcised in heart through the Messiah.  That would be a Jew who says they are a Jew and are not. They are mentioned as the enemies of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two spiritual conditions that receive no correction from the Lord. Prophetically Smyrna and Philadelphia are not just literal churches but they represent all the believers through all the ages that have the same spirit of devotion to the Lord that gains Philadelphia protection from the "hour," the tribulation in the latter days.

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, Biblican said:

We will have to agree to disagree on that one, too. The context in which the verse in question, coupled with the previous chapters supports the verse as pertaining to Pentecost. Did you read the article I sent?  The previous verse to Isaiah 66:8 is about the Messiah. The big deal about bringing the Jews back to the land after the Babylonian captivity was that the Messiah would come when the temple was rebuilt which He did. Pentecost quickly followed Jesus' resurrection. Ezekiel 36 and 37 deal with the Messiah and the New Covenant being given at that time. The valley of dry bones is also about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit reviving Israel after David their prince, a similitude of Jesus comes.

 

9 hours ago, Biblican said:

The Gentiles have been grafted into the Hebrew olive tree and the early church saw themselves as Jews.

There is no clarity with the statement above. I strongly disagree and I can no voice my disagreement unless you can persuade me other wise by saying what you mean about the terms I have listed below and how you have come to accept them with scripture or not...

It is not only about the term "the Hebrew olive tree", (there is not such a thing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ)  and also about the term of Gentiles (as there is not shuch a thing " a Gentile" in the New World of the New Covenant) and also about the early church seeing them selves as Jews. 

And this one too...what does it have to do whether one or more than one believer show themselves as Jews...Definitely they were mistaken because that it is impossible...very much so..they can call them selves Jews but they cannot be call Jews by the real Jews of the Sinai Covenant...the definition counts...

Paul never said anything like that....and I say that because I know what Paul said about that.

9 hours ago, Biblican said:

They don't replace Israel, they are unified with her. As Jesus said there would be one fold and one shepherd. The Jews who say they are Jews and are not mentioned in Revelation are the unbelieving Jews who can be grafted in when they eventually come to faith in Messiah Jesus.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

52 minutes ago, Biblican said:

The context of the two chapters leading up to the nation in one day verse in Isaiah is about the Gentiles coming to Jesus and they receive a new name which most scholars see as 'Christians."  While the church is not addressed specifically in the Old Testament it is there symbolically in my opinion.

The two chapters in Ezekiel are about Israel, their return to the Holy land after the captivity, the messiah and Pentecost in Ezekiel 37, which is about the birth of the church. As I said, the church isn't mentioned specifically, but it's there symbolically.

According to the Apostle Paul, a Jew is not a Jew unless the are circumcised in heart through the Messiah.  That would be a Jew who says they are a Jew and are not. They are mentioned as the enemies of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two spiritual conditions that receive no correction from the Lord. Prophetically Smyrna and Philadelphia are not just literal churches but they represent all the believers through all the ages that have the same spirit of devotion to the Lord that gains Philadelphia protection from the "hour," the tribulation in the latter days.

The word "church" does not have to be found in the Old Testament but the people which are supposed to consist the New Nation of God are mentioned. 

It mentions that people from the Nation of Israel and the other Nations of the world are gathered together in worship of the Messiah in the New World established by the New Covenant. 

The Messiah has nothing to do with the Law in the Sinai Covenant. 

The Messiah will bring his own Law..introduce something totally New...nothing to do with the Sinai Covenant...

The Patriarch of the New Covenant will bring the Eternal Life in the whole world...something that was not available before...the forgiveness of sins in the head of the people of God...

In the Christ of God, which is Jesus Christ. 

Instead of Patriarch I should have said "the Patriarch who is an Adam and who is also their Lord and the Judge of his people. A Jehovah to all who are his without prejudice no matter where and from whom and when they were born because he will guide them himself..he will be alive to all of them who will received of his Life, the Life Eternal..

Nothing can separate them from him for all Eternity...

Not even death...the way was with Abraham and his chosen children..conditional but it was so till the Christ Jesus included them to himself.

Because they are heirs of his Heavenly Inheritance..

The church of Jesus must be from all the people of the world by the same way..faith in Jesus Christ. 

And this happened before Jesus Christ was raised from the dead...during those three days before his raising from the dead...

Jesus preached the Gospel to all the people who had dye before him and he found them in the Bossom of Abraham and the place of the dead of the rest of the world.

Everyone had the God given right to hear the Good News of Jesus Christ and have the forgiveness of their sins in his blood...that time Jesus had died...