Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

@Anne2 & @Your closest friendnt - good rundown on "the firstborn from the dead!"

The firstborn also carries significance in that the inheritance of all the father has goes to that one.  In this case it is Jesus - "that He might be the firstborn of many." (Rom 8:29)  Then in Hebrews 12:23, "to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect."

So I read that to mean that because we are in Christ, all that He has coming to Him is also ours.  This is backed up by such verses as 1 Corinthians 3;22, "all things are yours" and Romans 8:17, “Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."

Ok, I have thought about prayed as well(late into the night) the things said here. Which aspects I had never even considered before. Thank you. Just to make sure of two things.

I am understanding these things correctly, and to know if there is agreemnt on those things. For there is no private interpretation.

Am I to understand

1. All who died from the beginning could not leave death, or the place of death, until the resurrection? Therefore Christ is first (firstborn), in succession sense?

 2. do all agree with this?

I could be misunderstanding the first, so Iam asking. And being hesitant to delve further if no agreement.

Thank you

I must admit, I was awe struck by the first one though.....

 

 

[farouk]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@Anne2 & @Your closest friendnt - good rundown on "the firstborn from the dead!"

The firstborn also carries significance in that the inheritance of all the father has goes to that one.  In this case it is Jesus - "that He might be the firstborn of many." (Rom 8:29)  Then in Hebrews 12:23, "to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect."

So I read that to mean that because we are in Christ, all that He has coming to Him is also ours.  This is backed up by such verses as 1 Corinthians 3;22, "all things are yours" and Romans 8:17, “Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."

@Anne2 My mind went also to the Hebrews 12.23 reference, mentioned by @Vine Abider also, as regards 'firstborn'.

[Anne2]

2 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 My mind went also to the Hebrews 12.23 reference, mentioned by @Vine Abider also, as regards 'firstborn'.

Yes, but some other things has struck me concerning firstborn. Headship (family etc.), double portion. The complete aspect of the term, and use. Not just one. It might apply in it's fullness to certain scripture. Even Ephesians.

[Vine Abider]

7 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Am I to understand

1. All who died from the beginning could not leave death, or the place of death, until the resurrection? Therefore Christ is first (firstborn), in succession sense?

 2. do all agree with this?

I could be misunderstanding the first, so Iam asking. And being hesitant to delve further if no agreement.

Thank you

I must admit, I was awe struck by the first one though.....

 

 

Interesting since you put it that way . . . but with the title of "firstborn from the dead" it would certainly seem so!

[farouk]

1 minute ago, Anne2 said:

Yes, but some other things has struck me concerning firstborn. Headship (family etc.), double portion. The complete aspect of the term, and use. Not just one. It might apply in it's fullness to certain scripture. Even Ephesians.

@Anne2 Interesting comment there. Headship is seen in 1 Cor. 11 and Colossians 2.

[Anne2]

7 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Interesting since you put it that way . . . but with the title of "firstborn from the dead" it would certainly seem so!

What strikes me in this is two notions

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I always seen a connection to this with the 21/2 tribes receiving their inheritance on the other side of the Jordon. But could not rest and enjoy it until they had gone over the Jordon and fought with their brethren to secure theirs in rest as well. When that was done, they returned to their inheritance to enjoy it and rest in it. Also the rest spoken of in Hebrews, this was an illustrative context.

As well as double portion, The Son of man, Son of God. This perhaps as the firstborn over all creation. The son of God son of man was a repatitious phrase used.

Therefore Christ, being made head of all creation He enters first sso all can follow. But having headship over both Adam, as well as the fleshly seed of Abraam as well

Edited June 14, 2023 by Anne2

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

What strikes me in this is two notions

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I always seen a connection to this with the 21/2 tribes receiving their inheritance on the other side of the Jordon. But could not rest and enjoy it until they had gone over the Jordon and fought with their brethren to secure theirs in rest as well. When that was done, they returned to their inheritance to enjoy it and rest in it. Also the rest spoken of in Hebrews, this was an illustrative context.

As well as double portion, The Son of man, Son of God. This perhaps as the firstborn over all creation. The son of God son of man was a repatitious phrase used.

Therefore Christ, being made head of all creation He enters first sso all can follow. But having headship over both Adam, as well as the fleshly seed of Abraam as well

@Anne2 It's sometimes said that while the church is the bride of Christ, Israel is the wife of Jehovah. These terms illustrate the dispensational differences between the church and Israel in Scripture.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

 

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

Thinking of the above in the context of firstborn from the dead we cannot be moved from it without him leading us all....

The above includes Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob themselves. Paul continually bases his teaching to the Gentiles specific to our inclusion in the promise to Abraham to be made our father as well. 

But....we tend to base so much....as does Judaism, on what is promised Israel.

But there were two covenants made with Abraham. Which Judaism, as well as Christianity tend to focus on Israel, as if everything spoken to Abraham was spoken to Israel as if there were no difference. My point is Paul in speaking to Gentiles always goes to Abraham himself.

What does the first covenant say to Abraham himself?

Focus on what God promises and says strictly to Abraham, Paul does in the gospel to the Gentiles. why don't we?

Ge 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Abraham dies, no doubt about it. He will be dead when this promise comes to pass. Something to consider, who are these fathers of Abraham? Where they lie, he will lie.

Who, is this covenant speaks of?

This concerns the 4th generation of his seed

Ge 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
 

The first generation Isaac, also will be dead

Jacob will also be dead

And all the generation of the patriarchs will be dead.

Ex. 1:5  And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.
6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
As was already known and expected by Joseph

Ge 50:25  And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Is this first covenant that which they could not enter, with out us? they would be dead.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Anne2

[Your closest friendnt]

19 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 It's sometimes said that while the church is the bride of Christ, Israel is the wife of Jehovah. These terms illustrate the dispensational differences between the church and Israel in Scripture.

I am not sure what you are trying to say.

But Hebrews said that they also had to wait for the Christ of God who is Jesus.

So all of us are in the Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ..justified and sanctified in the blood of Jesus Christ..

From the scriptures we learn that they were the first ones Abraham and all the people who were with him who received the bread and the wine of Jesus Christ...brought to them from Jesus Christ who went to where they were imediatly after his death on the Cross...Abraham was the very first one as Jesus said: Abraham has seen that day and he rejoice...

The Hebrew's writer if he had seen that he should have said that we are made perfect together with them...because the Gospel was preached first in the place of the dead beginning with Jesus Christ...

As Jesus comission his disciples to preach the Gospel to the living and not to the dead knowing that they will not go there at all at the time of their death but that we go to him to where he is in Heaven...and the same for us who follow Jesus to where he is. 

[farouk]

15 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Thinking of the above in the context of firstborn from the dead we cannot be moved from it without him leading us all....

The above includes Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob themselves. Paul continually bases his teaching to the Gentiles specific to our inclusion in the promise to Abraham to be made our father as well. 

But....we tend to base so much....as does Judaism, on what is promised Israel.

But there were two covenants made with Abraham. Which Judaism, as well as Christianity tend to focus on Israel, as if everything spoken to Abraham was spoken to Israel as if there were no difference. My point is Paul in speaking to Gentiles always goes to Abraham himself.

What does the first covenant say to Abraham himself?

Focus on what God promises and says strictly to Abraham, Paul does in the gospel to the Gentiles. why don't we?

Ge 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Abraham dies, no doubt about it. He will be dead when this promise comes to pass. Something to consider, who are these fathers of Abraham? Where they lie, he will lie.

Who, is this covenant speaks of?

This concerns the 4th generation of his seed

Ge 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
 

The first generation Isaac, also will be dead

Jacob will also be dead

And all the generation of the patriarchs will be dead.

Ex. 1:5  And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.
6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
As was already known and expected by Joseph

Ge 50:25  And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Is this first covenant that which they could not enter, with out us? they would be dead.

@Anne2 It's interesting to see that believers now who are in the church are inheritors of promises in Christ because of faith, although this does not make them Israelites. I would see the church and Israel as distinct (1 Cor. 10.32).