When are both the living and the dead in Christ raised?

[Stewardofthemystery]

2 minutes ago, The Light said:

No, not at all. There were no reports of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob rising from the dead so I think we can conclude they were not among these.

Additionally, those elders in Revelation 4 have crowns. That means Jesus has returned and brought His reward.

I always get a good laugh at the Gentiles who like to fancy themselves as being the “firstfruits” of Israel.

Replacement theology is False doctrine.

[Montana Marv]

14 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

But we were talking about the “firstfruits” of Israel that are already redeemed, not the branches that were broken off.

So you are referring to O.T. Saints of Israel.  They all went to Paradise upon their deaths. Over how many generations are you referring to.

Or are you referring to the 144,000 first fruits, which are in the future.

Israel was pulled out of the tree because of unbelief.  Later to be re-grafted back into the tree at the 2nd Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

32 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I always get a good laugh at the Gentiles who like to fancy themselves as being the “firstfruits” of Israel.

Replacement theology is False doctrine.

Yeah, a good laugh. There's lots on this forum that think they have replaced Irael, but I'm certainly not one of them.

The Gentiles, ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD, will, however be the first harvest of the fig tree. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, the final week can begin. The final week is the time of Jacobs trouble. 

[Stewardofthemystery]

38 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

So you are referring to O.T. Saints of Israel.  They all went to Paradise upon their deaths. Over how many generations are you referring to.

Or are you referring to the 144,000 first fruits, which are in the future.

Israel was pulled out of the tree because of unbelief.  Later to be re-grafted back into the tree at the 2nd Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The OT saints were not physically resurrected until “after”Jesus was resurrected; Jesus is the “firstborn” from the dead.

Isaiah 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

These are those who rose right “after”Jesus was resurrected.

Matthew 27:52-53

King James Version

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves “after”his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Those “firstfruits” of Israel shown in the Revelation have already been redeemed from the earth, as is written.

Revelation 14:3-4

King James Version

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the “firstfruits”unto God and to the Lamb.”

Israel was not pulled out of the good Olive tree, they ARE the Olive Tree.  Some of the branches were removed, but not the whole tree. There has always been a remnant of Israel gathered over time according to election, as Paul said.

The Gentile branches are grafted into the good Olive tree of Israel, not the other way around.

Replacement theology is False doctrine.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

No, not at all. There were no reports of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob rising from the dead so I think we can conclude they were not among these.

Additionally, those elders in Revelation 4 have crowns. That means Jesus has returned and brought His reward.

"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." Mark 12:27 KJV


"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:32 KJV


SO, THEY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN DEAD, AS YOU HAVE THEM BEING.


"Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." 1 Corinthians 15:15 KJV


"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" Mark 12:26 KJV

"And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?" Luke 24:5 KJV


"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8 KJV

 

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

greek
Since for by a man [came] death, also by a man resurrection

of [the] dead   -     ADJECTIVE - GENITIVE MASCULINE PLURAL

3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse






FIRST FRUIT

Romans 8:23 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ πνεύματος
NAS: having the first fruits of the Spirit,
KJV: which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
INT: ourselves the first-fruit of the Spirit
 

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 11:16 N-NFS
GRK: δὲ ἡ ἀπαρχὴ ἁγία καὶ
NAS: If the first piece [of dough] is holy,
KJV: if the firstfruit [be] holy,
INT: moreover the first-fruit [be] holy also

Romans 16:5 N-NFS
GRK: ὅς ἐστιν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀσίας
NAS: who is the first convert to Christ
KJV: who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto
INT: who is a first-fruit of Achaia

1 Corinthians 15:20 N-NFS
GRK: ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων
NAS: from the dead, the first fruits of those
KJV: [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
INT: from among [the] dead first-fruit of those fallen asleep

1 Corinthians 15:23 N-NFS
GRK: ἰδίῳ τάγματι ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα
NAS: Christ the first fruits, after
KJV: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
INT: own order [the] first-fruit Christ then

1 Corinthians 16:15 N-NFS
GRK: ὅτι ἐστὶν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀχαίας
NAS: of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia,
KJV: it is the firstfruits of Achaia,
INT: that it is first-fruit of Achaia

James 1:18 N-AFS
GRK: εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἀπαρχήν τινα τῶν
NAS: that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
KJV: a kind of firstfruits of his
INT: to be us first-fruits a sort of

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

Revelation 14:4 N-NFS
GRK: τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ
NAS: men as first fruits to God
KJV: among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God
INT: the men [as] firstfruits to God

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


PEOPLE can TRY and make it HIM 'THE SINGLE FRUIT' risen

but that doesn't pass the DEEPER TEST, does it?  


Did Christ's body and blood bring in the NEW COVENANT and for 3 days did He PREACH AND TEACH the NEW COVENANT and were sins forgiven and souls WASHED CLEAN


and then LEFT IN HELL to pay the PENALTY that He had just paid,

or KEEP paying the penalty for sins WHICH had been forgiven, 

remain in bondage to SOMETHING HE had conquered and had said would be taken care of THAT DAY  (ISA scroll in temple where He read) 

and ROSE UP ALONE?  

Wasn't the WHOLE POINT OF GRACE so that those who ALL THEIR LIFE WERE FAITHFUL

could not be HELD in bondage to death FOR A SIN? 

 Isn't the GIFT OF SALVATION all about US never having to DIE and go to the place of the dead

but rather to keep living by FOLLOWING HIM to go to the place of the LIVING GOD to be where He is?  

How does someone who NEVER DIES end up being RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD, the grave, hell, the corrupt earth with all the just and unjust DEAD?  



AND THOSE ELDERS were SEEN in HEAVEN BEFORE CHRIST was SEEN IN HEAVEN aka BEFORE THERE WAS A CHURCH.  

[The Light]

55 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

AND THOSE ELDERS were SEEN in HEAVEN BEFORE CHRIST was SEEN IN HEAVEN aka BEFORE THERE WAS A CHURCH.  

And Christ tells the Churches they will be kept from the hour of temptation and He is coming soon aka How can He tell the Churches He is coming soon in Revelation 3 if there is no Church in Revelation 4?

Revelation 3

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Edited June 25, 2023 by The Light

[Stewardofthemystery]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

The Gentiles, ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD, will, however be the first harvest of the fig tree. 

That’s funny, I know the Word of God, and He never said that.

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, The Light said:

And Christ tells the Churches they will be kept from the hour of temptation and He is coming soon aka How can He tell the Churches He is coming soon in Revelation 3 if there is no Church in Revelation 4?

Revelation 3

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

When did 'keep from' take on the meaning of "completely removed from LIFE ON EARTH"?  

That is something that UNTIL YOU HEAR IT is something that doesn't even cross your mind.  

IF you had been learning GODS TRUTH "Precept on precept....." as those looking to find Gods rest do,

you would have READ way before REV...

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

 John 17:15 KJV

and the VERY THOUGHT of being 'raptured' PRE TRIB would NEVER HAVE ENTERED YOUR MIND.  That verse SPECIFICALLY tells us that to be KEPT FROM evil, doesn't have anything to do with being TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD.  

So what does 'kept from' REALLY MEAN? 

5083. téreó ►
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Nothing about that has to do with TRAVEL, change of body, change of life, removal from earth

OVER 70 times and never being removed from the world comes into play.  


In Rev 3 the 'churches' are being evaluated, and THAT DOESN'T GO VERY WELL by anyones standards. 

  Certainly the 'churches' are SPOTTED AND BLEMISHED....and 

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:27 KJV

So, THEY COULDN'T BE raptured RIGHT AFTER THAT...THEY FIRST NEEDED at the very least to be

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;

26That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

PROVING COULDN'T GO FROM EARTH TO HEAVEN at that time.  WHAT does tribulation DO FOR US?  THAT is what the church needs.  

And you know who is going to be without spot or blemish?   THOSE WHO OVERCOME and endure to the end.....


Let's just say that you were reading that in the year 220AD.  

Since WE KNOW He isn't RETURNING as Lord of Lords and King of Kings for MANY YEARS, the 'soon' MUST BE 'relevant' to HIS time and not ours...but

HOW do you suppose HE would be coming SOON to you?  Unless you believe the Bible was written for the FINAL GENERATION only, there would have to be a TRUTH in there for you, wouldn't it?  Now we know tribulation falls upon all, and the devil is roaming around.... 

BUT to those who have BEEN SAVED no matter when you lived CHRIST was coming to you quickly...

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hope that answers your question.  


One more thing, when Satan and the angels are cast to earth and the whole world is deceived, WHICH 'churches' would be praying to THE GOD IN HEAVEN anymore?  They THINK He is here on earth with them.  HENCE NO CHURCH.  

and also why the DAILY SACRIFICE and OBLATION (love and worship) is taken away from GOD  

It starts going to the IMAGE.  


 

 

 

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

The OT saints were not physically resurrected until “after”Jesus was resurrected; Jesus is the “firstborn” from the dead.

Isaiah 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

These are those who rose right “after”Jesus was resurrected.

Matthew 27:52-53

King James Version

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves “after”his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Those “firstfruits” of Israel shown in the Revelation have already been redeemed from the earth, as is written.

Revelation 14:3-4

King James Version

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the “firstfruits”unto God and to the Lamb.”

Israel was not pulled out of the good Olive tree, they ARE the Olive Tree.  Some of the branches were removed, but not the whole tree. There has always been a remnant of Israel gathered over time according to election, as Paul said.

The Gentile branches are grafted into the good Olive tree of Israel, not the other way around.

Replacement theology is False doctrine.

You don't see them in Rev chapters 4,5or6. So you are past midtrib for the 144,000. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

That’s funny, I know the Word of God, and He never said that.

I'm laughing also. I am wondering if you know the Word of God how you can't conclude  things.

I have posted multiple times Hosea 9 where the Word says that  the fathers of the Jews were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, but they went to Baalpeor and would therefore not be the first harvest. 

I have also posted multiple times that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see.

I have also posted that we have 144,000 first fruits that happens after the seals are opened.

CONCLUSION: You know the Word of God but don't seem to understand it.

Edited June 25, 2023 by The Light