Church bulletin

[Gerioke]

STOP IT!

PLEASE

I'm sorry. I just don't like having my character attacked by someone who has never met me.

I am done.

[Keith]

I didn't know this, that's why I was asking. I'm not really familiar with how credit/debit cards work (other than knowing how to spend them..heh). Anyway, what I was asking is this: so Visa/Mastercard gets a percentage of every transaction...so do you never use them at all? I'm just curious why someone would treat their everyday/personal finances different than their tithes/offerings. If you use it elsewhere, I'm wondering why there is inconsistency.

Hi Tess! I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to your post. I don't see the inconsistency. Sure, I have one credit card. If I use it, I pay it off at the end of every month. With each credit card purchase, Visa gets a small percentage of it. Being that that is a contract between the merchant and Visa, and the merchant is fine with it, I have no problems with it. It's business. Yes, all that I have belongs to the Lord. I do my best to spend wisely. Again, when I give my tithes/offerings, I'm not conducting a business transaction. The money I give is intended for the Lord's purpose. Worship is not a business and, in my opinion, makes giving with a credit card vulgar to me. Visa gets their money off the top. That's the first fruit. I give my tithes to God before I spend anything else. That's my first fruits. If I give it with a credit card, Visa skims a bit off the top and that becomes the first fruits. But that's even just a technicality to me because they shouldn't receive any of my tithes/offerings.

Well I wasn't trying to shock you, it was an honest question. I'm trying to understand why you are differentiating between the "business world" and what you must consider more "spiritual" (tithes/offerings)?

Because I see one as an act of worship and the other as a business transaction. In business, fine, it's expected. But not in worship.

Here's the way I'm looking at it (which may or may not be wrong) but I'm just sharing how I see it:

1. Everything I have belongs to God, including my money.

2. Everything I do should be for His glory, including everything I do with my money.

3. To me, bringing God glory with my finances would include:

A. Earning it in an honest way.

B. Using it to bless others

C. Sharing it with those who are struggling

D. Making wise/godly decisions about purchases

E. Paying anything I owe (bills, utilities, etc.) on time

F. Not getting into unnecessary debt

G. Paying tithes/offerings

I agree with everything you just said.

In my mind, everything on that list is considered "giving it to God".

OK, through this statement I completely understand where you're coming from and very much appreciate your mindset here. And I do agree with you. I guess the differentiating that I see between the two is like this... When I buy things with money, or give it away, or do anything else with it, I'm doing that unto the Lord. I'm trying to be a good steward of what He's blessed me with by sharing what I've been given and spending wisely. Sometimes, because of "business", it's going to involve credit cards and usury. But the tithes/offerings I give I'm giving to the Lord directly. This is part of my worship to Him, to glorify Him and thank Him for what I've been given. Visa does not play into that.

I don't understand why some are considering that what they do with their cash on Sunday morning is the only time they are honoring God with their finances.

As I explained above, that's not how I view money at all. You're right, it's not just a Sunday morning thing. It's because I want to honor God with my money that I wouldn't give my tithes/offering with a credit card. But as I said earlier, to each their own. The attitude and motive in which we give is much more important than how we give. Because using a credit card would be a stumbling block to me, I wouldn't use it.

We should honor Him everyday of the week, with every transaction we make. This is why I don't understand why a person would have no problem using Visa at the grocery story, but suddenly find it unspiritual to use it for tithes/offerings. I can understand the privacy issue, and wanting to give privately. Most of the times my family has given offerings we have done so anonymously. For instance, on more than one occassion I remember my brother writing checks to the church for at least $1,000 and designating it to a specific person that he wanted to receive it anonymously so they would never know where it came from. Or we've put cash in envelopes and designated them the same way. So I understand the desire to give "in secret" so as not to receive recognition for it.

I hope my explanation above clarifies my point of view on this, as your explanation helped me understand your thought process.

I think the important thing is just to do as the Holy Spirit is leading you to do. Sometimes it's not possible to give anonymously. I've mentioned this before, but my family keeps things like McDonald's gift certificates on hand so that when we see people begging or hungry we can offer them something that they can't squander. Obviously it's necessary to give them this face to face, but this is still done to God's glory even though it's not "secret". I don't say those things to brag, I'm just sharing some ways that we go about giving.

Secondly, you mention how it would bother you that they are "stealing from God" when they take a portion of your tithes/offerings. No one is stealing if we give it to them.

In my view, they are, because of the reasons that I stated above. Worship is not a business transaction. A merchant can contract with Visa to take a percentage because it's their merchandise they are bargaining with. A pastor should not contract with Visa for tithes and offerings because it's not his money he's bargaining with. It's God's. If Visa takes a percentage of all credit card transactions for tithes and offerings, that is only going to short the church money they need and could use for their purposes. Now that Visa takes money off the top, they church is going to be short by even more money and will plea with the congregation to give more. I don't view it as wise stewardship on the part of the pastor.

If I know the Lord has led me to give a $500 offering by phone (and I'm going to use my Visa) and I also know that Visa is going to take 1% of this transaction (I'm guessing the amount here) couldn't I just allot for the $.75 or so that it will be? But better yet (I'm going back to what I stated above about differentiating)..why is it deemed "wrong" for Visa to take a portion when I donate, but not wrong when they take a portion when I buy groceries or pay my electric bill? If everything I do with my money should be for His glory, I shouldn't treat what I do with it in "church" differently than what I do with it the rest of the week.

The last merchant I spoke to said it was 4 - 5%. Again, the only way I can explain it is how I did above.

(snip)

And neither am I condemning you for what you choose for your family. It just seems like some are saying "this is the way I do it" and then proceeding to explain how any other way is wrong. I respect personal convictions and can appreciate a person choosing to do something as the Holy Spirit has led them. I'm just curious about the mindset behind some of the things we often do.

That is sad, isn't it? I hope I clearly stated that what I said is MY belief, for ME. I would never condemn anyone for believing/behaving differently than I do.

For those who are condemning others, I would urge you to read Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Stern warning to those who are condemning others: It is not your/my place to condemn anyone! If God doesn't condemn anyone who is in Christ Jesus and who walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, then who are you or I to do so? Pride and arrogance! Remember what happens to those who wrongly judge others... you will be judged by those same standards. Will you be able to withstand your own judgment?

[Keith]

My point is...it is tacky and unreasonable to have that in the bulletin. Actualy, in all honesty, I think it is tacky to have in the church as well. People give on compulsion, especially after a manipulating sermon about tithe and offerings. If they happen to not have any cash on them, they will just whip out their visa/mc and give something, even if they aren't supposed to. The Lord will speak to about giving and where to give. It is easy to be carried away emotionally and give where the Lord has not told you to, and the church makes it easier because they "take" credit cards just like the stores.

I whole-heartedly agree!

In my opinion, if a person is using a credit card to give their tithes/offering then they are not putting much thought into the act of worship that it is. They are thinking about the convenience alone. We know when we are going to give so why can't we prepare our tithes and offerings before we arrive? Why go unprepared? Where is the thought? Where is the worship? It's not merely just giving money...

[Keith]

my opinion is that a credit card is not of your earnings. Something that is credited and paid later. Tithes is the first tenth of your earnings. So I will pay either with a check or with cash.

Excellent point!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Keith]

I must ask if it really matters. Are we so strict on giving that it HAS to be 10% and that it HAS to be taken off of the gross? Give me a break.

But this is not the intent of the thread. It's about giving with your credit card or not. And why condemn someone who believes in the 10%? If this is how someone believes it, then let them act upon it. If God wants differently, He will bring it up with that person. (And He won't do it with an attitude.)

[Keith]

How is it a false perception? Any excess spending of money is greedy and lack of self-control...whether done via credit cards or cash.

You people slay me. Do you own an old car? Do you have kids to feed? Do you pay 3000 dollars a year for oil heating.

I had no Idea that feeding my kids is an act of greed. I had no idea that keeping my house at 65 degrees in he winter was an act of greed. I had no idea that keeping my car on the road was an act of greed. you better take your high and mighty attitudes and exchange them for some good sense. You shouldn't be judgeing people until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

Don't even try with me. Trust me, some people on this board would dream to be in such a situation. Fact remains, I have not turned to credit cards to solve the problems.

How condescending! This sounds exactly like something a Pharisee would say! Believe what you want, discuss your different opinions... I will gladly listen and consider them. But do you really believe this attitude is acceptable to God? It's pride and arrogance.

[Gerioke]

I must ask if it really matters. Are we so strict on giving that it HAS to be 10% and that it HAS to be taken off of the gross? Give me a break.

But this is not the intent of the thread. It's about giving with your credit card or not. And why condemn someone who believes in the 10%? If this is how someone believes it, then let them act upon it. If God wants differently, He will bring it up with that person. (And He won't do it with an attitude.)

Wow! The voice of reason.

[Keith]

How is it a false perception? Any excess spending of money is greedy and lack of self-control...whether done via credit cards or cash.

You people slay me. Do you own an old car? Do you have kids to feed? Do you pay 3000 dollars a year for oil heating.

I had no Idea that feeding my kids is an act of greed. I had no idea that keeping my house at 65 degrees in he winter was an act of greed. I had no idea that keeping my car on the road was an act of greed. you better take your high and mighty attitudes and exchange them for some good sense. You shouldn't be judgeing people until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

Don't even try with me. Trust me, some people on this board would dream to be in such a situation. Fact remains, I have not turned to credit cards to solve the problems.

Lucky you.

But you're missing the point. Too often people turn to them as a quick fix...that is greed, impatience, and a spirit that doesn't want to rely on God. Doesn't make you a bad person, just makes you human that made a mistake. At the same time, it doesn't mean all credit cards are bad.

But the way you present your point doesn't exactly make people open to your point. If it comes across with attitude, who cares what your point is?

[Avodah]

I'm sorry. I just don't like having my character attacked by someone who has never met me.

I am done.

Thank you Gerioke. I do understand what you are saying about being attacked.

And thank you Keith, you are always a voice of reason and wisdom!

[apothanein kerdos]

It is not your/my place to condemn anyone! If God doesn't condemn anyone who is in Christ Jesus and who walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, then who are you or I to do so? Pride and arrogance! Remember what happens to those who wrongly judge others... you will be judged by those same standards. Will you be able to withstand your own judgment?

How am I condemning him when it was his own words? Gerioke did what he always does, he baited people into a fight then got offended.

But this is not the intent of the thread. It's about giving with your credit card or not.

Someone was saying that because our firstfruits (10%) belongs to the Lord we should not use credit cards. I asked why it matters.

And why condemn someone who believes in the 10%?

Quote me where I condemned them. Prove that I did.

How condescending! This sounds exactly like something a Pharisee would say! Believe what you want, discuss your different opinions... I will gladly listen and consider them. But do you really believe this attitude is acceptable to God? It's pride and arrogance.

What the crap? He made the argument that I could not possibly know what he has gone through. I pointed out that I did and that I have gone through a lot, yet have not turned to credit cards to save me. How is that wrong in any way? Shall I, next time, just go, "Okay, you're right, forget my personal expirience?"

If anything, the only thing you accomplish in posting this little tid bit is performing the very thing you accuse me of.

But the way you present your point doesn't exactly make people open to your point. If it comes across with attitude, who cares what your point is?

That is purely an American ideal that we "cannot offend people". Sorry, I will speak the truth and only the truth, if someone if offended by it, tough.

From Ger's own writings:

Credit cards intice you to live beyond your means.Before I had credit cards, I had no debt and was able to live within my budget. Now I have credit cards, 6000 dollars in debt, and am finding it hard to make ends meet.

My personal experience is that credit cards have great potential for evil. Credit card companies are in the business of money and mammon is the CEO

To which Tess responded with:

And for some people chocolate entices them to commit gluttony. For others, the internet entices them to look up pornography. This doesn't mean chocolate or the inernet are evil in and of themselves, it's how they are used which can lead to the problem. Just because credit cards are a temptation for you, does not mean they are a temptation to everyone else. Each person is responsible for their own choices. The problem lies with the individual, not with the object used to commit sin.

She later pointed out:

What do you consider to be a "tithe"? Do you consider yourself 'tithing' to the electric company when you pay them for a service? This scripture is talking about a heart issue, a heart that's divided. We become a slave/servant to whatever it is we are trying to please. If you are seeking God, serving Him and seeking to please Him you cannot equally be seeking to be materialistic and gain material things. If you racked up credit card debt with purchases you did not need, it was your heart that was serving two masters...and that other master was not "Mastercard", it was your greed and desire to please yourself rather than God.

Now...judging from what Gerioke said about purchasing things outside his means of control...how was Tess wrong in saying this?

The fact is Ger did what he does in every single thread, picked a fight and then got offended. How is what she, or I, said wrong? How was he condemned when he did it himself? How was he attacked when he did it himself? Gerioke is the only person in here that pointed to his own sin and condemned himself for it...Tess and I were merely saying that if you get into credit card debt by buying stuff that is outside of your means, it is greedy and a lack of self control. How is that wrong? How is it a condemnation? How is that an attack? Get off your high horse Keith and others, read the entire topic before shooting off your mouths.