If you are picked up as a wise virgin you will not be seated under the Altar

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning,

I have wondered about this, but it seems to be a specific form of execution comparable to John the Baptist. In this technological day and age, this form of execution is inefficient, gruesome, and brutal.

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If this were a generic form of capital punishment, words like killed or slew would be implied. The term "beheaded" is only used seven times in the Bible. Killed and associated words are listed over 200 times. This is a particular form of execution.

To my knowledge, the Greek word pelekízō (beheaded), is only used once in the Bible (Rev. 20:4) and is very specific.

πελεκίζω pf. pass. ptc. πεπελεκισμένος

          behead (with an ax) (πέλεκυς), normally an act of capital punishment (Polyb. 1, 7, 12; 11, 30, 2; Diod S 19, 101, 3; Strabo 16, 2, 18; Plut., Ant. 36, 4; Jos., Ant. 20, 117; loanw. in rabb.) Rv 20:4.^[1]

(117) Accordingly Cumanus, out of fear lest the multitude should go into a sedition, and by the advice of his friends also, took care that the soldier who had offered the affront to the laws should be beheaded; and thereby put a stop to the sedition which was ready to be kindled a second time. ^[2]

It is interesting to look at who practiced beheadings as capital punishment and when throughout history and today. The Inquisitions and Crusades' dark ages, in biblical times, present African tribes and Islamic practices against infidels and Christians.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (KJV) The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

I suspect literal beheadings will again become the prominent form of execution where the Antichrist has control.

 

---

^[1] Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000: 794. Print.

^[2] Josephus, Flavius, and William Whiston. The Works of Josephus: Complete and Unabridged. Peabody: Hendrickson, 1987. Print.

You provide a well-researched and thus compelling argument. My only objection is that the martyrs come from those three groups of men/women and they were killed in a variety of ways. Matthew 21 records their death as,

"34 ... he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another"

I fear that we'll never come to a consensus because "beheading" is not mentioned for the death of those who died for His Word. Yet they qualify for martyrdom. Conversely, compared to some of the deaths dreamt up by Nero, beheading is quick and clean.

Your thoughts are as valid as mine - maybe even more logical, but I had to think up a reason why the Holy Spirit, Who knows that from Abel through the death of Jesus to the inquisition, martyrs died a hundred different ways.

On a non related theme, I do not think that beheading is "inefficient, gruesome and brutal". For the crimes that men commit that deserve death, I think that it is a mercy. Nero used to have extravagant garden parties. It is reported that he bound Christians and then drove a stake into the ground and impaled the Christian, who had been doused in pitch, through his lower jaw into the roof of his mouth. he was then set on fire, which burned slowly, to light up the garden. The Lord does not consider beheading for Nero. He states in Revelation 14; 

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

But I grant to each his own sentiments.

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Their dead bodies rise, NOT their souls --

-- which verse you ignored. Is Jesus currently in Hades, or in heaven?

Not so.

Rev. 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at (1) the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon (2) the golden altar which was before the throne. [Two altars, not one.] ... 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth.

If you know your OT tabernacle, you know that the altar of fire was the source of the coals for the golden altar of incense. That altar of fire was also the place that the blood of sacrifices for unintentional sins was poured out, at "the base/bottom of the altar." Ex. 29:12; Lev. 4:18 This corresponds to the place where the souls of the martyrs are, because "the soul of the flesh is in the blood." Lev. 17:11 "Under the altar" in Rev. 6:9 is used in the same sense that Jesus used it when he said he saw Nathanael "under the fig tree"; that is, at its base/bottom.

So I stand with what I originally wrote. Could have written more, but have been hours on the computer, and it's past time to go home.

First, as I mentioned above, you have a good argument. the fire for the incense came from the altar of sacrifice. But it is now your duty to deal with my arguments.
- Why does God have an altar in heaven?
- What is offered in heaven?
- For whom is it offered?
- Why is there continual fire on this altar?
- To what is it fixed so that the nakedness of the priest is not seen
- Who is the priest of the heavenly altar
- If Moses was to make the"tent" a "DWELLING" is the outer court a dwelling
- If God dwelt between the Cherubim, can the Outer court be called a "dwelling"
- In Exodus 27:9 the wording is "the court of the tabernacle". But the tabernacle is a "dwelling". The court must be a dwelling, or the court is an addition.

All of the above cannot be answered  for two reasons; (i) There is no need for it, and (ii) there are no scriptures mentioning it.

On the other hand, there is a very simple answer to my position. The object of the incense is to facilitate the prayers of the saints. On earth it is ignited by the sacrifice - a picture of Christ. But in heaven, the same prayers are facilitated by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:26). Fire speaks of judgment, and the judgment is so that the incense reaches God. Th fire is for the incense, and the action takes place on the golden altar. The "fire" of the Holy Spirit, Who accompanies Christ - IS ALREADY ON THE GOLDEN ALTAR. Revelation 8:5 does not introduce a new altar. It does not pause to change altars. There is no indication that the fire comes from anywhere else than the golden altar.

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You provide a well-researched and thus compelling argument. My only objection is that the martyrs come from those three groups of men/women and they were killed in a variety of ways. Matthew 21 records their death as,

"34 ... he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another"

I fear that we'll never come to a consensus because "beheading" is not mentioned for the death of those who died for His Word. Yet they qualify for martyrdom. Conversely, compared to some of the deaths dreamt up by Nero, beheading is quick and clean.

Your thoughts are as valid as mine - maybe even more logical, but I had to think up a reason why the Holy Spirit, Who knows that from Abel through the death of Jesus to the inquisition, martyrs died a hundred different ways.

On a non related theme, I do not think that beheading is "inefficient, gruesome and brutal". For the crimes that men commit that deserve death, I think that it is a mercy. Nero used to have extravagant garden parties. It is reported that he bound Christians and then drove a stake into the ground and impaled the Christian, who had been doused in pitch, through his lower jaw into the roof of his mouth. he was then set on fire, which burned slowly, to light up the garden. The Lord does not consider beheading for Nero. He states in Revelation 14; 

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

But I grant to each his own sentiments.

I would not argue my viewpoint is valid; it is only how my mind perceives it.

By inefficient, I was trying to convey the idea of martyring by the numbers, as with the Jewish Holocaust in mass by gas or machine gun.

By gruesome, I think beheading is done to send a message to see things their way. I am sure it will not be hidden or private, but public executions. Compared to standard civilized methods of execution today of a firing squad, hanging, gas chamber, and painless lethal injection. Imagine the toll on those gathered to witness these deaths, especially the children.

Want to make an impression on the human psyche? Grab a detached human head by the hair and walk it around. I imagine King David, with Goliath’s head, made an impression on the Philistines.

It seems plain that Christians and Jews will be hated as they were historically by Nero and Rome. I foresee crowds gathering and cheering, chanting death, as in the days of the Roman Coliseum Christian executions.

My thoughts and comments remind me of the Rorschach Inkblot Test. 😊

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It is interesting to look at who practiced beheadings as capital punishment and when throughout history and today. The Inquisitions and Crusades' dark ages, in biblical times, present African tribes and Islamic practices against infidels and Christians.

I think the most relevant example for our time would be the thousands killed by the guillotine of the French Revolution.

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

All of the above cannot be answered  for two reasons; (i) There is no need for it, and (ii) there are no scriptures mentioning it.

Again, not true at all. I'm back on a very limited tablet, so cannot go into the details, but your questions are all answered in my series of blogs about the symbolisms of the Mosaic tabernacle and ordinances; beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1475-the-tabernacle-and-court-what-they-represent/

The key word for the heavenly altar of fire is sacrifice. As, "present your bodies a living sacrifice" (Rom. 12:1), and "offer up spiritual sacrifices." 1Pet. 2:5

 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Again, not true at all. I'm back on a very limited tablet, so cannot go into the details, but your questions are all answered in my series of blogs about the symbolisms of the Mosaic tabernacle and ordinances; beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1475-the-tabernacle-and-court-what-they-represent/

The key word for the heavenly altar of fire is sacrifice. As, "present your bodies a living sacrifice" (Rom. 12:1), and "offer up spiritual sacrifices." 1Pet. 2:5

 

I appreciate you proposing that I study your background, and they are most probably well researched. But we are not actually studying the Tabernacle here. We debate the place of the souls of martyrs while thy wait for (i) vengeance, and (ii) more martyrs to join them ere they are avenged.

The matter has far reaching consequences. You propose that the Tabernacle in heaven, which Moses (and later David) copied, requires an Outer Court, an Altar of sacrifice, and (by extension) its fence and gate. You further propose that the souls of dead martyrs languish under this altar and that the fifth seal is to satisfy the demands of heavenly citizens. However, we both know that scriptures that give the necessity of, and instructions concerning an altar of sacrifice in heaven don't exist. The greatest event in the history of creation - the sacrifice of Christ - was done ON EARTH. So too the sacrifice of martyrs. They were martyred ON EARTH and like David in Acts 2, are still in Hades.

My proposal is that Moses and David copied the design of the Tent alone, and added, under divine instruction, the Outer Court with Altar and Laver for the EARTHLY Tabernacle. This included strict instructions that the altar of sacrifice have NO elevating stones or steps, lest the nakedness of the priest be discovered. The Holy Spirit has used this fact to place the whereabouts of the SOULS of martyrs. I brought arguments that the mention of "SOULS" alone indicate death, in which the soul is separated from the body and spirit. That souls of men only leave Hades when Christ opens the gates. And that, true the facts throughout the Bible right up to the White Throne, the only way out of Hades is resurrection, of which, Jesus alone has power.

I pointed out that dad men are naked and unclean and would be offsides in heaven where only "clothed" men are, viz. Enoch, Elijah and our Lord Jesus - men in their bodies. The consequences of the doctrine that the souls of dead men somehow avoid Hades, and go to heaven at death has no scriptures saying so. The Old Testament saints went to Sheol while their bodies rotted back to the elements in GRAVES. Both David and our Lord Jesus went there at death. The difference is that our Lord Jesus could not be held by death and was "RAISED" from Hades to meet His body and then "clothed" Rise to visit His Father in heaven.

David has no such privilege. Acts 2:27-34 has David's tomb still with the disciples in Jerusalem. It has David "NOT ascended to heaven". And it has David NOT escaping Hades like Jesus did.

The consequences are far-reaching. With no Christians in Hades, there is no resurrection. There is no resurrection "at His coming". There is also no sense in our Lord's statement in Matthew 16:18. How could Hades have "prevailing" if it has no use for Christians. There is no rapture for the dead Christians are already in heaven. The Bible is in error because it states that the dead and the living TOGETHER are caught away. God in heaven entertains unclean and naked men.

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But we are not actually studying the Tabernacle here. We debate the place of the souls of martyrs while thy wait

We are most certainly studying the heavenly Tabernacle here, upon which the earthly was was closely patterned.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You propose that the Tabernacle in heaven, which Moses (and later David) copied, requires an Outer Court...

Which is mentioned in Rev. 11:2. The earthly Tabernacle is never mentioned in Rev.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You further propose that the souls of dead martyrs languish under this altar and that the fifth seal is to satisfy the demands of heavenly citizens. However, we both know that scriptures that give the necessity of, and instructions concerning an altar of sacrifice in heaven don't exist. The greatest event in the history of creation - the sacrifice of Christ - was done ON EARTH.

I said NOTHING about heavenly citizens' demands. And the events GREATER than the earthly sac. of Jesus was/will be his blood's soul being brought into the Holy of Holies in heaven (two appearances), without which the earthly sacrifice would have been in vain. As Heb. 9 tells us.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

They were martyred ON EARTH and like David in Acts 2, are still in Hades.

And exactly where do you find this in the Word?? And where is this physical altar?

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The consequences of the doctrine that the souls of dead men somehow avoid Hades, and go to heaven at death has no scriptures saying so.

Here you directly contradict scriptures. Such as 2 Cor.  5:6-7, where Paul tells us that "to be absent from the body [is] to be present with the Lord." So I ask you again, is the Lord in heaven or hell?

Like so many in the world-deceived modern Church, you base your perspective on earthly, not heavenly things. Please please please change your perspective!

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

We are most certainly studying the heavenly Tabernacle here, upon which the earthly was was closely patterned.

Yes, and besides the Tabernacle being the "tent" where are the answers to my second posting on this page? Were is the the Outer Court in heaven? For what is a brazen altar in heaven? Where is it mentioned and what was Christ's death, if He is the sum of the Offerings, needed in heaven.

I'm afraid you create a new doctrine. Christ was sacrificed on the EARTH. The SOULS of the saints are under the EARTH. Others must still join them in Hades ere they RISE.

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Which is mentioned in Rev. 11:2. The earthly Tabernacle is never mentioned in Rev.

No. But the Temple is - and it is a Temple on EARTH - in the city that our Lord was crucified - an EARTHLY city.
 

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And exactly where do you find this in the Word?? And where is this physical altar?

I am astounded that you do not know that our Lord was the sum of all Offerings and was sacrificed on the EARTH. Then, He DESCENDED to the heart of the EARTH - just like the martyrs, He was "under His altar". Three days later, He tells Mary that He has not YET ascended to His Father. That puts our Lord Jesus IN HADES, UNDER THE EARTH; with David, Lazarus and the malefactor who died next to Him.

Now, our Lord Jesus, Peter tells us in Acts 2 ESCAPED Hades, but that David was still there and that his remains were in the dust of Jerusalem - 50 days after Christ's resurrection!

I have a high regard for your knowledge of the Word. You should have known all this.

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Here you directly contradict scriptures. Such as 2 Cor.  5:6-7, where Paul tells us that "to be absent from the body [is] to be present with the Lord." So I ask you again, is the Lord in heaven or hell?

In a previous post I pointed out that you could not be BODILY present with the Lord because that same 2nd Corinthians 5 you quote says you are NAKED. With no body, how can you be BODILY with the Lord? But Psalm 139:8 says that if your soul makes its bed in SHEOL, you will be with Him. And I further pointed out that that relationship is the desired relationship by God (Jn.4:24). That is also the reason you RISE in resurrection - because you are in Hades UNDER THE EARTH - the same earth that formed the altar for Christ AND those martyrs.

Now, I think we have both said our pieces. If you want to answer along your lines, it would be a show of mastery of the scriptures if you could answer those questions in my second posting on this page. Once you have done that, you must show, with scriptures, how the disembodied saints RISE (when Christ comes) when they are already in heaven.

[choir loft]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:13 PM, R. Hartono said:

They must wait a little time until their number is accomplished in the great tribulation.

 

Your appreciation of eschatology is skewed because your understanding of the sequence of events is incorrect.

THIS IS the SAME error committed by the pharisees of Jesus' day as well as the Orthodox rabbinate today.  It's the SAME ERROR made by pseudo-scholars of the Bible who only seek to promote their own agenda.  It is most definitely NOT what God has intended. 

Why?

Because the Great Tribulation has already happened.

The sequence of events presented by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in 1595 and later by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century is incorrect.  It's incorrect for the same reasons - personal agenda.  Ribera wanted to confuse protestants of the reformation and Darby wanted to promote his own brand of Dispensationalism despite the fact he was neither historian nor theologian.  Beware the leaven of the pharisees (that protestants have swallowed whole.)

Jeremiah 30:7 identifies a time in his future he called 'Jacob's Trouble'.  Some translations call it 'tribulation'.  Either way it tells us two things.  First it says there will be a time of terrible persecution and second that it will focus upon Jews - those who are identified in the Tanakh as the House of Jacob.  Look it up.

The prophet Daniel describes a turbulent time in his future as lasting seven years. Much has been written about a faux-clock or divided calendar which serve only to confuse prophecy, not explain it.  Specifically the time of Jacob's Trouble will last seven years - no more, no less.

Jesus, who some call Lord and savior but who deny His words to establish their own doctrines, said it would ONLY HAPPEN ONCE.  (Matthew 24:21)

Thus in order to establish the FALSE dogma of Tribulation the post-modern church must lie about the meaning of the prophecies and the sequence of events leading up to them and following them.  

It should also be pointed out that there are more than 16 different interpretations of tribulation/rapture/millenium that are held to be sacrosanct by stubborn ill informed church types. If the interpretations are correct why then are there so many variations?  

THE HOLOCAUST, a period of intense persecution of European Jewry leading to property loss and murder of over six million, began in 1938 and lasted until 1945 - a period of seven years.

I've made this statement before, but have been ignored by those who prefer to embrace doctrine of demons and antisemitic hatred of both scripture and Jews.  They prove this to be true by denying the Holocaust and the death of millions of innocent men women and children.  In all this they still claim to be Christians and then cry loud and long for yet another holocaust - denying the words of Jesus who said it would only happen once.

Which is it?  Is Jesus a confused liar or is the church guilty of perverting scripture?

Judge with right judgment because you can't have it both ways and be right.

What has actually happened is that the church has gotten the sequence of events wrong - the exact SAME error made by the pharisees of Jesus' time when the divinity of Jesus is considered.  Like them, the church refuses to acknowledge the truth of history and the words of Biblical prophets including the Son of God.  They love darkness and lies more than the truth of history and scripture.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited June 30, 2023 by choir loft

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, choir loft said:

Your appreciation of eschatology is skewed because your understanding of the sequence of events is incorrect.

THIS IS the SAME error committed by the pharisees of Jesus' day as well as the Orthodox rabbinate today.  It's the SAME ERROR made by pseudo-scholars of the Bible who only seek to promote their own agenda.  It is most definitely NOT what God has intended. 

Why?

Because the Great Tribulation has already happened.

The sequence of events presented by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in 1595 and later by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century is incorrect.  It's incorrect for the same reasons - personal agenda.  Ribera wanted to confuse protestants of the reformation and Darby wanted to promote his own brand of Dispensationalism despite the fact he was neither historian nor theologian.  Beware the leaven of the pharisees (that protestants have swallowed whole.)

Jeremiah 30:7 identifies a time in his future he called 'Jacob's Trouble'.  Some translations call it 'tribulation'.  Either way it tells us two things.  First it says there will be a time of terrible persecution and second that it will focus upon Jews - those who are identified in the Tanakh as the House of Jacob.  Look it up.

The prophet Daniel describes a turbulent time in his future as lasting seven years. Much has been written about a faux-clock or divided calendar which serve only to confuse prophecy, not explain it.  Specifically the time of Jacob's Trouble will last seven years - no more, no less.

Jesus, who some call Lord and savior but who deny His words to establish their own doctrines, said it would ONLY HAPPEN ONCE.  (Matthew 24:21)

Thus in order to establish the FALSE dogma of Tribulation the post-modern church must lie about the meaning of the prophecies and the sequence of events leading up to them and following them.  

It should also be pointed out that there are more than 16 different interpretations of tribulation/rapture/millenium that are held to be sacrosanct by stubborn ill informed church types. If the interpretations are correct why then are there so many variations?  

THE HOLOCAUST, a period of intense persecution of European Jewry leading to property loss and murder of over six million, began in 1938 and lasted until 1945 - a period of seven years.

I've made this statement before, but have been ignored by those who prefer to embrace doctrine of demons and antisemitic hatred of both scripture and Jews.  They prove this to be true by denying the Holocaust and the death of millions of innocent men women and children.  In all this they still claim to be Christians and then cry loud and long for yet another holocaust - denying the words of Jesus who said it would only happen once.

Which is it?  Is Jesus a confused liar or is the church guilty of perverting scripture?

Judge with right judgment because you can't have it both ways and be right.

What has actually happened is that the church has gotten the sequence of events wrong - the exact SAME error made by the pharisees of Jesus' time when the divinity of Jesus is considered.  Like them, the church refuses to acknowledge the truth of history and the words of Biblical prophets including the Son of God.  They love darkness and lies more than the truth of history and scripture.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The Biblical record shows that we a "born" anew, must "grow by the sincere milk of the word, mature and be under the gifted ones "UNTIL" we come to the full stature of Christ. Babies poop in their diapers, children believe fairy tales and spill milk, teenagers flex their independence and adults make the wrong investments. Mankind, and the Lord, call it MISTAKES.

You call it;
- Pseudo Christianity
- Leaven
- Lies
- Prefering to embrace doctrines of demons
- Antisemetic hatred
- Loving darkness

Maybe the rest of us mortals who needed a Savior are these things. I salute your perfection in knowledge and your life without mistakes.

But wait .... do i spot something? Did not Daniel say that the Abomination of Desolation was half way through the last seven. And did not Matthew 24 say that this event would cause there THEN the Great Tribulation. That means "42 months, 1260 days and /or a time, times and half a time" - NOT SEVEN YEARS AS YOU SAY!

If so, by your own judgment of your fellow Christians, you're going to have to take those names above on yourself.

But for me - you just made a mistake.