The Lords 2 anointed witnesses

[Charlie744]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:44 PM, Jaydub said:

That"s fine and Stewardofthemystery said The Word and the Spirit. He made a very good case. My question is to you, then what do you do with

Rev 11

4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.

If Jesus in chapter sone of Revelation called the 7 lampstands 7 churches, why would the symbolism change in the same book 10 chapters later? I believe the 2 lampstands in chapter 11 are the two churches, Jews and gentiles, its also why they are called the two olive trees. I believe they symbolize all Gods family

As I mentioned earlier, literally just started to look at Revelation. But I believe some of the interpretations in Daniel (my interpretations, not today’s accepted interpretations), might carry forward and assist with the symbols and underlying meanings in Revelation (but it really is toooo early …. ). 
 
However, these comments in this post are interesting and they concern Revelation.

In attempting to interpret / identify the actors / symbols in Daniel 7, I came across John 17: 1-26. Today’s accepted interpretations for these verses are:

1) Verses 1-5 represents Jesus is praying for Himself,

2) Verses 6-19 represents Jesus praying for His disciples,

3) Verses 20-26 represents Jesus praying for all believers.

However, I believe verses 14-19 must be separated from within the second section. These verses are not speaking to His disciples but to His Word (the 10 Commandments). 

Looking into these verses He is telling us there are only two things that are not of this world- Jesus and His Word. Jesus is asking Hus Father to keep them (His 10 Commandments- His Word in the world and from the evil one. 
 

The two witnesses of God that are not of this world are the Messiah (Testimony of Jesus), and His Word (the 10 Commandments).

Thus, in Revelation, these two witnesses will once again be preached to the world BY THE JEWS WHO WILL HAVE THE BLINDNESS OF THEIR EYES REMOVED, and preach the Good News for 3.5 years… and then the end shall come. 
 

Most it today’s accepted interpretations of Daniel are found / based using a “historical” approach (how well they can match the verses to our history books - and this despite claiming the last 6 chapters of Daniel are prophetic). But there is a very real need to interpret the last 7 chapters of Daniel prophetically not historically. 
The physical gives way to the spiritual in a strong way.

Consequently, the book of Revelation just might be a continuation of the latter chapters of Daniel— in the way they are all symbolic, figurative, etc. Thus the two witnesses are not human beings but His Word and the Testimony of Jesus- the two witnesses of God that are not from this world. But as found in Daniel (again, my interpretations), they (Jews) will preach these two witnesses to the world for 3.5 years and complete the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle. 
 

Again, just started Revelation but this seems to have caught my eye as a result of studying Daniel (this might certainly raise many questions that would have to be answered but this is now just a thought/ a possible connection to Daniel 6. 
 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

So the two witness are being taken as Jesus Christ and the Father, such as the same as shown in Christ in John 8:3 even as Jesus said,

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

And when the time came that our Lord was to be killed he said,

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone:  and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

And so this would also be understood as two witnesses being killed also then?

I thought it was pretty cool that Jesus sent the seventy out two and two before his face (Luke 10:1) into the places where he was to come.

But then what do you do with these two witness "bodies" (plural) that are killed where the Lord himself was crucified

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And the people of the earth seeing their dead bodies and them ascending up in a cloud in the sight of them, as the Lord also ascended up in a cloud in the sight of his disciples.

And says of these earlier

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The candlesticks are shown as churches (an assembly of people) wherein the Lord dwells. Just as olive trees, and its branches, an examples of which is shown  by its nature wild and another the good olive tree

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Then here as two olive branches

Zech 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

Sounds a little more like they can be the golden pipes within the witnesses through whom comes the Holy Spirit, 

Which sounds a little more like, " I in them, and thou in me and so by Christ, being filled with the Spirit"

Since he said,

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

2Cr 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God

How can they be killed and their dead bodies be seen by the world if they were not men with the word and the Spirit in them?  Seeing God gives them the power to prophesy and and men could seek their harm/hurt? Since they have mouths through which the Spirit of their Father speaks (prophesying through the two)?

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The two witnesses of God that are not of this world are the Messiah (Testimony of Jesus), and His Word (the 10 Commandments).

 

 

Shows this here

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

These are people who keep and have the same who are warred against by Satan

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

So the two witness are being taken as Jesus Christ and the Father, such as the same as shown in Christ in John 8:3 even as Jesus said,

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

And when the time came that our Lord was to be killed he said,

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone:  and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

And so this would also be understood as two witnesses being killed also then?

I thought it was pretty cool that Jesus sent the seventy out two and two before his face (Luke 10:1) into the places where he was to come.

But then what do you do with these two witness "bodies" (plural) that are killed where the Lord himself was crucified

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And the people of the earth seeing their dead bodies and them ascending up in a cloud in the sight of them, as the Lord also ascended up in a cloud in the sight of his disciples.

And says of these earlier

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The candlesticks are shown as churches (an assembly of people) wherein the Lord dwells. Just as olive trees, and its branches, an examples of which is shown  by its nature wild and another the good olive tree

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Then here as two olive branches

Zech 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

Sounds a little more like they can be the golden pipes within the witnesses through whom comes the Holy Spirit, 

Which sounds a little more like, " I in them, and thou in me and so by Christ, being filled with the Spirit"

Since he said,

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

2Cr 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God

How can they be killed and their dead bodies be seen by the world if they were not men with the word and the Spirit in them?  Seeing God gives them the power to prophesy and and men could seek their harm/hurt? Since they have mouths through which the Spirit of their Father speaks (prophesying through the two)?

 

Again, just a thought since I have not studied Revelation. Perhaps this is not speaking of a man physically being killed and then being raised. 
 

But God’s Word and His Testimony have in so many places since the Cross have been corrupted by the little horn, eliminated (killed) by so many who reject Jesus and His Word. His Word has been removed or killed in so many parts of the world. And in the city where He was crucified, we will not find the Messiah- He is not “alive” but rejected and He lays dead in Jerusalem. 
 

Revelation appears to be entirely symbolic- we should not look for tanks, aircraft and nuclear weapons. Nor should we look for conflicts or wars that have been going on since Genesis. That is our human nature. And we should not bring in actors that have different names like Islam, the EU, Russia, Iran or China, etc. Just different names that continue our practice of killing each other. They are NOT found in the book of Daniel and they will NOT be found in Revelation. 

 

But this war He is or I believe He is revealing to us is the war for our salvation. A spiritual war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satin who had his army throughout the world and is headed by the little horn of Daniel. 
 

Perhaps after the 3.5 years of preaching the Good News once again by the Jews, God will take away His Word and His Testimony to once again be with Him in heaven. Then, the wrath of God will begin. 
 

Again, wayyyyyyy to early to support or claim…. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

22 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Again, just a thought since I have not studied Revelation. Perhaps this is not speaking of a man physically being killed and then being raised. 
 

But God’s Word and His Testimony have in so many places since the Cross have been corrupted by the little horn, eliminated (killed) by so many who reject Jesus and His Word. His Word has been removed or killed in so many parts of the world. And in the city where He was crucified, we will not find the Messiah- He is not “alive” but rejected and He lays dead in Jerusalem. 
 

Revelation appears to be entirely symbolic- we should not look for tanks, aircraft and nuclear weapons. Nor should we look for conflicts or wars that have been going on since Genesis. That is our human nature. And we should not bring in actors that have different names like Islam, the EU, Russia, Iran or China, etc. Just different names that continue our practice of killing each other. They are NOT found in the book of Daniel and they will NOT be found in Revelation. 

 

But this war He is or I believe He is revealing to us is the war for our salvation. A spiritual war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satin who had his army throughout the world and is headed by the little horn of Daniel. 
 

Perhaps after the 3.5 years of preaching the Good News once again by the Jews, God will take away His Word and His Testimony to once again be with Him in heaven. Then, the wrath of God will begin. 
 

Again, wayyyyyyy to early to support or claim…. 

 

Best to ask the questions by the scripture and reason all the same from it.

I was just throwing that to the wind, but not expecting you to answer my questions because you have already made it clear you haven't studied Revelation at all. 

On the first post I was because of your mention of the two not being "of this world" (in the way you had implied it) and that doesn't hold much water there because Jesus told his own disciples that they also were not of this world.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

The possibility that it is "the testimony of Jesus" and "the commandments of God" must be the two witnesses (and not men) specifically because they are "not of this world" would not hold there. And not only that we see a remnant that the dragon wars with which do keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (or those two things). So men can work in that picture along with the same, it doesn't really exclude them altogether is what I was pointing out.

I am no Revelation Genius trust me, I just listen to what is shared and "rule out" those things I have left off considering because the argument might not be strong enough or the overstretch is too vast for me .

 

 

[Jaydub]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:45 AM, AdHoc said:

Here are some facts to show that everything is literal.
The Beast will reign from the Temple for 42 months
The Beast is empowered by ten Gentile kings. The Outer Court will be the scene of Gentile politics
The Two Witnesses need the protection of fire to survive persecution
The Two Witnesses prophesy - a human endeavor
The Temple will be standing. See 2nd Thessalonians 2

The Abyss from which the beast comes is a literal place - Hades
Jerusalem is where our Lord was crucified (v.8) is literal Jerusalem

I propose that the LITERAL meaning be adhered to in Revelation 11 to get what God wanted to transmit.

I smiled when I read this, You write here are the facts to show that everything is literal and the very first line you write, The Beast will reign from the temple

You  feel some beastly creature with horns will reign from the temple. Does that sound symbolic or literal.

 

On 6/22/2023 at 7:45 AM, AdHoc said:

The Two Witnesses need the protection of fire to survive persecution

Revelation 11 tells us fire comes out of their mouths Do you feel that should be taken literal?

Its not coming down from heaven, it comes from their mouths. to me I think its a reference to Jeremiah 5

14Therefore this is what the Lord God Almighty says:

“Because the people have spoken these words, I will make my words in your mouth a fire

and these people the wood it consumes. Literal or symbolic?

On 6/22/2023 at 7:45 AM, AdHoc said:

The Beast is real and literal

The beast may be real, but it is not literal

 

On 6/22/2023 at 7:45 AM, AdHoc said:

I propose that the LITERAL meaning be adhered to in Revelation 11 to get what God wanted to transmit.

They are the two olive trees and two lampstands that stand before the Lord they are clothed in sackcloth and fire comes out of their mouth. How can you take something that is filled with symbolism and then say a literal meaning should be adhered to

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Jaydub does have a point there

[AdHoc]

7 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

I smiled when I read this, You write here are the facts to show that everything is literal and the very first line you write, The Beast will reign from the temple

You  feel some beastly creature with horns will reign from the temple. Does that sound symbolic or literal.

 

Revelation 11 tells us fire comes out of their mouths Do you feel that should be taken literal?

Its not coming down from heaven, it comes from their mouths. to me I think its a reference to Jeremiah 5

14Therefore this is what the Lord God Almighty says:

“Because the people have spoken these words, I will make my words in your mouth a fire

and these people the wood it consumes. Literal or symbolic?

The beast may be real, but it is not literal

 

They are the two olive trees and two lampstands that stand before the Lord they are clothed in sackcloth and fire comes out of their mouth. How can you take something that is filled with symbolism and then say a literal meaning should be adhered to

I hear your objection. I take the Beast to be literal because scripture has identified him. It is not in dispute who the Beast is.

But suppose you are correct and the Beast is metaphorical. May I ask yo for the meaning?

[AdHoc]

7 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Jaydub does have a point there

Yes. The general rule is that it is literal unless it is clearly a picture, Type, metaphor and such like. But when scripture has identified the subject, its meaning is not part of the dispute. Scripture has defined the beast as a man, a king and a Prince.

For instance, John 1:29 calls Jesus a "Lamb". Was he really a lamb, or a Man? If then we choose the metaphorical way, the whole scene must be accorded this meaning. The water, the Jordan, John Baptist - all must be accorded the same.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

26 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. The general rule is that it is literal unless it is clearly a picture, Type, metaphor and such like. But when scripture has identified the subject, its meaning is not part of the dispute. Scripture has defined the beast as a man, a king and a Prince.

For instance, John 1:29 calls Jesus a "Lamb". Was he really a lamb, or a Man? If then we choose the metaphorical way, the whole scene must be accorded this meaning. The water, the Jordan, John Baptist - all must be accorded the same.

AdHoc I myself cant get past certain things being "figurative" in certain areas myself so it's typical of me to sit with them first and scrutinize them every which way, so I understand. Some people believe two literal men will be breathing literal fire out of their mouths (like living butane lighters ) that's taking it a bit too far  

Unless you literally see the fire as literally spiritual fire, something can be literally spiritual or literally physical right?

Others see the two men as something else (many something else's). But as Abraham's two women are to be understood allegorically as two covenants in the past (that might not be so far fetched) so okay, I will consider it.  But when we see what they are given power to do, and the fire from their mouths, and them being killed, their bodies, and then their death and ascension into a cloud. I have a hard time believing they are not real persons, despite what their true numbers above the two made known might represent. There are certain areas I can give on according to other things as laid out, but then there are others which seem to be a real stretch, just too many leaps need to be made (in other words).  

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by AFlameOfFire
fixed sentence