YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[BeyondET]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Not exactly.  I have been providing evidence from the Bible that supports what I say.

What I DO push back on are claims that have no evidence from the Bible.

I figured you would say that, your belief is not evidence it's just your interpretation.

Edited August 15, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

I figured you would say that, your belief is not evidence it's just your interpretation.

But there is nothing to interpret.  The words are clear enough on their own.  It's the YEC that have to interpret "tohu wabohu" in order to believe that the words in Gen 1:2 describe original creation and in Jer 4:23 describe what an invading army does to the land.

Totally different scenarios, which means the YEC are the ones who have to interpret.

"tohu wabohu" means the SAME THING in both verses. Both describe a wasteland.  

We just don't know WHO or HOW the earth became that after God created it.  Or WHEN.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

But there is nothing to interpret.  The words are clear enough on their own.  It's the YEC that have to interpret "tohu wabohu" in order to believe that the words in Gen 1:2 describe original creation and in Jer 4:23 describe what an invading army does to the land.

Totally different scenarios, which means the YEC are the ones who have to interpret.

"tohu wabohu" means the SAME THING in both verses. Both describe a wasteland.  

We just don't know WHO or HOW the earth became that after God created it.  Or WHEN.

Tohu wa bohu appears in another verse too.

ישׁעיה לד:יא ...וְנָטָה עָלֶיהָ קַו־תֹהוּ וְאַבְנֵי־בֹהוּ.

Isa 34:11 …He will measure it with a line of formlessness (tohu) and with weights of emptiness (bohu).

https://www.thetorah.com/article/creating-order-from-tohu-and-bohu

Young Earth Creationists have to grapple with earth not being older than 6,000 years. Understanding Genesis 1:2 is secondary. A Young Earth Creationists would just say that happened in the first few hours of day 1.

Edited August 15, 2023 by BeyondET

[SavedOnebyGrace]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, it's the beginning of God's restorative work.  

What creative work did God do in Genesis 1:2? He merely observed the condition of the wasteland from which creation would occur. Day 1 would begin in Genesis 1:3. You cannot insert Genesis 1:2 as a creative act with Genesis 1:3.

[BeyondET]

9 minutes ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

What creative work did God do in Genesis 1:2? He merely observed the condition of the wasteland from which creation would occur. Day 1 would begin in Genesis 1:3. You cannot insert Genesis 1:2 as a creative act with Genesis 1:3.

It does appear that verse 1:2 is more of a narrative than a creative act.

Edited August 15, 2023 by BeyondET

[SavedOnebyGrace]

51 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Tohu wa bohu appears in another verse too.

ישׁעיה לד:יא ...וְנָטָה עָלֶיהָ קַו־תֹהוּ וְאַבְנֵי־בֹהוּ.

Isa 34:11 …He will measure it with a line of formlessness (tohu) and with weights of emptiness (bohu).

https://www.thetorah.com/article/creating-order-from-tohu-and-bohu

Young Earth Creationists have to grapple with earth not being older than 6,000 years. Understanding Genesis 1:2 is secondary.

Excellent reading and understanding of The Torah.

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Tohu wa bohu appears in another verse too.

ישׁעיה לד:יא ...וְנָטָה עָלֶיהָ קַו־תֹהוּ וְאַבְנֵי־בֹהוּ.

Isa 34:11 …He will measure it with a line of formlessness (tohu) and with weights of emptiness (bohu).

Thanks for MORE EVIDENCE of what those 2 words really mean.

From biblehub.com -

New International Version
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

New Living Translation
It will be haunted by the desert owl and the screech owl, the great owl and the raven. For God will measure that land carefully; he will measure it for chaos and destruction.

English Standard Version
But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness.

Berean Standard Bible
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction.

King James Bible
But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

New King James Version
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it, Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. And He shall stretch out over it The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness.

New American Standard Bible
But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

NASB 1995
But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

NASB 1977 
But pelican and hedgehog shall possess it, And owl and raven shall dwell in it; And He shall stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Amplified Bible
But the pelican and the porcupine will take possession of it; The owl and the raven will dwell in it. And He will stretch over it (Edom) the measuring line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Christian Standard Bible
Eagle owls and herons will possess it, and long-eared owls and ravens will dwell there. The LORD will stretch out a measuring line and a plumb line over her for her destruction and chaos.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The desert owl and the screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and the raven will dwell there. The LORD will stretch out a measuring line and a plumb line over her for her destruction and chaos. 

American Standard Version
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it; and the owl and the raven shall dwell therein: and he will stretch over it the line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Pelicans and owls shall inherit it, and crows and ravens shall dwell in it, and a measuring cord of ruin shall be stretched upon it, and no joy will be there

Brenton Septuagint Translation
and for a long time birds and hedgehogs, and ibises and ravens shall dwell in it: and the measuring line of desolation shall be cast over it, and satyrs shall dwell in it.

Contemporary English Version
Owls, hawks, and wild animals will make it their home. God will leave it in ruins, merely a pile of rocks. 

Douay-Rheims Bible
The bittern and ericius shall possess it: and the ibis and the raven shall dwell in it: and a line shall be stretched out upon it, to bring it to nothing, and a plummet, unto desolation. 

English Revised Version
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it; and the owl and the raven shall dwell therein: and he shall stretch over it the line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Pelicans and herons will take possession of the land. Owls and crows will live there. He will stretch the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of destruction over it.

Good News Translation
Owls and ravens will take over the land. The LORD will make it a barren waste again, as it was before the creation. 

International Standard Version
"But hawks and hedgehogs will possess it; owls and ravens will nest in it. God will stretch out over it a measuring line, and chaos, and plumb lines of emptiness, and its nobles. 

JPS Tanakh 1917
But the pelican and the bittern shall possess it, And the owl and the raven shall dwell therein; And He shall stretch over it The line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness.

Majority Standard Bible
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction.

New American Bible
But the desert owl and hoot owl shall possess it, the screech owl and raven shall dwell in it. The LORD will stretch over it the measuring line of chaos, the plumb line of confusion. 

NET Bible
Owls and wild animals will live there, all kinds of wild birds will settle in it. The LORD will stretch out over her the measuring line of ruin and the plumb line of destruction. 

New Revised Standard Version
But the hawk and the hedgehog shall possess it; the owl and the raven shall live in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plummet of chaos over its nobles.

New Heart English Bible
But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it. The owl and the raven will dwell in it. He will stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

World English Bible
But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it. The owl and the raven will dwell in it. He will stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness. 

How can any reasonable person accept "tohu wabohu" as being part of original creation, when in ALL these verses, plus Jer 4:23 we have nothing but confusion, chaos, ruin, barren waste, destruction and desolation.

That would be irrational.  The 2 words mean the same thing in ALL the verses, which proves that Gen 1:2 CANNOT be a part of original creation.

14 hours ago, BeyondET said:

https://www.thetorah.com/article/creating-order-from-tohu-and-bohu

Young Earth Creationists have to grapple with earth not being older than 6,000 years. Understanding Genesis 1:2 is secondary. A Young Earth Creationists would just say that happened in the first few hours of day 1.

Given how "tohu wabohu" is translated by so many translations in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11, the YEC are in quite a bind to accept Gen 1:2 as part of original creation.

God certainly did NOT create the earth "tohu wabohu".  

Instead, the earth BECAME "tohu wabohu".

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

What creative work did God do in Genesis 1:2? He merely observed the condition of the wasteland from which creation would occur.

I don't see how there could be anything BEFORE creation.  Remember Psa 33:6,9- God spoke everything into existence.  So how could there be any kind of "wasteland" before creation.

Rather, there WOULD be a wasteland AFTER creation, in which God then restored the earth to a condition upon which man could exist.

14 hours ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

Day 1 would begin in Genesis 1:3. You cannot insert Genesis 1:2 as a creative act with Genesis 1:3.

I said the END of the verse shows the BEGINNING of the restoration.  

I separate original creation from restoration, which is obvious from Gen 1:2ff.

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks for MORE EVIDENCE of what those 2 words really mean.

From biblehub.com -

New International Version
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

New Living Translation
It will be haunted by the desert owl and the screech owl, the great owl and the raven. For God will measure that land carefully; he will measure it for chaos and destruction.

English Standard Version
But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness.

Berean Standard Bible
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction.

King James Bible
But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

New King James Version
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it, Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. And He shall stretch out over it The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness.

New American Standard Bible
But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

NASB 1995
But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

NASB 1977 
But pelican and hedgehog shall possess it, And owl and raven shall dwell in it; And He shall stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Amplified Bible
But the pelican and the porcupine will take possession of it; The owl and the raven will dwell in it. And He will stretch over it (Edom) the measuring line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Christian Standard Bible
Eagle owls and herons will possess it, and long-eared owls and ravens will dwell there. The LORD will stretch out a measuring line and a plumb line over her for her destruction and chaos.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The desert owl and the screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and the raven will dwell there. The LORD will stretch out a measuring line and a plumb line over her for her destruction and chaos. 

American Standard Version
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it; and the owl and the raven shall dwell therein: and he will stretch over it the line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Pelicans and owls shall inherit it, and crows and ravens shall dwell in it, and a measuring cord of ruin shall be stretched upon it, and no joy will be there

Brenton Septuagint Translation
and for a long time birds and hedgehogs, and ibises and ravens shall dwell in it: and the measuring line of desolation shall be cast over it, and satyrs shall dwell in it.

Contemporary English Version
Owls, hawks, and wild animals will make it their home. God will leave it in ruins, merely a pile of rocks. 

Douay-Rheims Bible
The bittern and ericius shall possess it: and the ibis and the raven shall dwell in it: and a line shall be stretched out upon it, to bring it to nothing, and a plummet, unto desolation. 

English Revised Version
But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it; and the owl and the raven shall dwell therein: and he shall stretch over it the line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Pelicans and herons will take possession of the land. Owls and crows will live there. He will stretch the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of destruction over it.

Good News Translation
Owls and ravens will take over the land. The LORD will make it a barren waste again, as it was before the creation. 

International Standard Version
"But hawks and hedgehogs will possess it; owls and ravens will nest in it. God will stretch out over it a measuring line, and chaos, and plumb lines of emptiness, and its nobles. 

JPS Tanakh 1917
But the pelican and the bittern shall possess it, And the owl and the raven shall dwell therein; And He shall stretch over it The line of confusion, and the plummet of emptiness.

Majority Standard Bible
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction.

New American Bible
But the desert owl and hoot owl shall possess it, the screech owl and raven shall dwell in it. The LORD will stretch over it the measuring line of chaos, the plumb line of confusion. 

NET Bible
Owls and wild animals will live there, all kinds of wild birds will settle in it. The LORD will stretch out over her the measuring line of ruin and the plumb line of destruction. 

New Revised Standard Version
But the hawk and the hedgehog shall possess it; the owl and the raven shall live in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plummet of chaos over its nobles.

New Heart English Bible
But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it. The owl and the raven will dwell in it. He will stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

World English Bible
But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it. The owl and the raven will dwell in it. He will stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness. 

How can any reasonable person accept "tohu wabohu" as being part of original creation, when in ALL these verses, plus Jer 4:23 we have nothing but confusion, chaos, ruin, barren waste, destruction and desolation.

That would be irrational.  The 2 words mean the same thing in ALL the verses, which proves that Gen 1:2 CANNOT be a part of original creation.

Given how "tohu wabohu" is translated by so many translations in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11, the YEC are in quite a bind to accept Gen 1:2 as part of original creation.

God certainly did NOT create the earth "tohu wabohu".  

Instead, the earth BECAME "tohu wabohu".

Certianly didnt use the word wasteland anywhere in that verse.

Emptiness was a preferred word, thanks for posting all the verses that shows that.

Since wasteland isnt used for bohu in all instances. Genesis 1:2 is the place it isn't used either 

How about post all the Genesis 1:2 verse Translation let's see how many use wasteland?

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[teddyv]

11 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Certianly didnt use the word wasteland anywhere in that verse.

Emptiness was a preferred word, thanks for posting all the verses that shows that.

If anything, it supports the cosmology of primordial chaos.