Revelation Man Posted August 30, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,107 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 561 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted August 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: I don't really have an issue with it being translated as departure or as falling away or as apostasy. IMO they are effectively the same thing, you depart from something, fall away or apostatize. What about the other half of that? 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Ignore the departure, there are two parts to that. Meaning that the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him must come after the man of sin is revealed. How? He opposes and exalts himself above God, sitting in the temple of God stating he is God and demanding worship. The coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him happens after that. That is not what Paul was saying. By reading 1 Thessalonians we can see Paul had already explained these things unto them, thus when he got a letter (the problem with Epistles is we do not get the full back and forth by both sides) and they were telling him they thought they were in God's Wrath, he chastises them and explains why they can not be in the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) and then in vs. 5 says did I not tell you all this when I was with you? So, Paul explains why they can not be in the DOTL and thus should not fear [that they are]. The problem is men do not read old English well, especially when its translated from the Greek. 2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(ask urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, So, we ask URGENTLY (why?) because of verse 2, they were fearing they were in the DOTL, that is the reason he mentions in vs. 1 why they are urgently relaying this information, (Rapture) so they would not fear (vs. 2). 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled(Fear of being in God's Wrath), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us(someone had sent them a letter and said Paul says we are in God's Wrath or the DOTL or something to that affect), as that the day of Christ is at hand(Christ is Lord so DOTL/God's Wrath). 3 Let no man deceive you by any means(they had been LIED UNTO): for that day(DOTL) shall not come, except there come a falling away first(Church is Raptured), AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What you do is conflate it because (IMHO) they way its worded. Here is what Paul just said in modern English. Stop FEARING you are in God's Wrath guys !! Do not buy into anyone lies that told you we said this, we are urgently telling you that we will be gathered unto Christ before all of this can happen, not only that but the coming Anti-Christ must also be at hand (REVEALED just means alive really) before the DOTL can happen. So, it does not mean the Coming of our Lord can't happen until after he is revealed (or is alive on earth) it means just the opposite, you are taking the Anti-Christ as being that which is the SUBJECT, it is not, the SUBJECT is the DOTL and their Fear that they are in the DOTL. So, Paul says hold up guys, both of these things have to happen before we can be in the DOTL, the Church must DEPART [this earth] AND the Anti-Christ has to be alive and on the end time scene (70th week Agreement is made) THEN God's Wrath falls in the middle of the week. So, all he is saying is before God's Wrath can fall the Anti-Christ has to make his Agreements spoken of in Dan. 9:24-27. Nowhere does that passage say or imply the Gathering must be after the Anti-Christ is revealed it says both the Gathering unto Jesus (Rapture) AND the Anti-Christ must happen BEFORE God's Wrath falls. The subject is the Thessalonians Fears that they were in the DOTL, its not the Rapture or the Anti-Christ per se, they are both used as descriptors to show why the Thessalonians should not fear that they were in the DOTL God's Wrath. Now below Paul explains what the Anti-Christ will do, and thus they therefore knew they could not be in Gods Wrath because no such thing was going on at the Temple of God in 51-52 A.D. There was no man sitting in the Temple claiming to be God at that time. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth(Stops the Anti-Christ from coming forth) that he might be revealed in his time(Much later on). 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth(Binds) will let (binds), until he be taken out of the way(The Anti-Christ through the Church WITHHOLDS the Anti-Christ from coming forth. Remember Jesus said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against my Church). 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed(After the Church that WITHHOLDETH Departs), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Lets see we had a Beast from Babylon to Rome, then the Church shows up and delivers the Mortal Wound the 7 Headed Beast (Rome went away and Israel was no nation for nigh 2000 years) thus went dormant, there can be no Beast without Israel in the land to Beast over, the Church's SERVICE is now at hand and has been since God rent the temple the day Jesus died, it is called the Time of the Gentiles (SERVICE). Once we are Raptured the plate will once again be set for Israel service, she birthed the Messiah amongst the Roman Beast. Now she will will repent amongst the Anti-Christ Beast (7th Head that revives the Dead Beast System) and Jesus will usher in the Kingdom Age where he rules from Jerusalem amongst the Jews for 1000 years. The biggest problem with Epistles is we do not get both sides of the correspondences and a guy writing will some times say, when I was with you I told you "these things" and leave those things out, whereas with "Thus Saith the Lord" Scriptures in the Old Testament God was writing directly unto Israel (and all men). 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Matthew 24:15-16, 29-31 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: … Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Even without an apostasy or a departure, whatever you wish to call it, the abomination of desolation and following unparalleled great tribulation in Judea happens first. There is also a logic problem. Verses 1-5 state the day of the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him cannot come unless there comes a departure (rapture) first and then the man of sin is revealed, so our departure (gathering to Him) cannot come until we're gathered to Him first and then the man of sin is revealed. Again, this is just not the case. The Rapture happens first, but IMHO it does not cause the 70th week, Israel joining the European Union causes the Rapture, because that begins God's clock of penance against Israel again, "they give His land away" or what amounts to it by joining the E.U. after the Gog & Magog war. Most people get Matt. 24 all wrong, I might get deeper later but as of now I will just highlight, in verses 4-6 we are told only about the 70 AD events, nothing else. In verses 7-8 Jesus merely takes a step back from what he is speaking about (The Disciples fates) to show them why the events in 70 AD are not him returning at the very end, and that is why he says THE END (70th week) is by and by or much later on. Thus verses 7-8 is Jesus showing them why it has to be much, much later on, he gives them a glimpse of many, many, many things that must happen before the END (70th week) comes, so verses 7-8 have little to do with what Jesus is trying to teach the Disciples in Matt. 24, except to show them why the end must be much later on. He does this so they will not rush back to Jerusalem when they hear of wars and rumors of wars with fake christs that the Pharisees put forth to save them as Messiahs that came in their own names (fulfilling John 5:43, which was about the Pharisees only, not the END TIME Anti-Christ). If the Disciples had rushed back in 70 AD and brought with them the fledgling church, the Disciples would have all died and the fledgling church would have died in its infancy, so Matt. 24 was very, very important info for Jesus to give to the Disciples. Verses 7-8 are not that important tbh, they were just color illustration for the Disciples. Then Jesus gets back to the Disciples, he tells them they are all going to be killed (save John) by false prophets but nit Christian false prophets, Jesus was speaking about the Jupiter and Zeus type people (see Johnathan Chans Return of the GODS book) whom the Gospel was clashing with (Demons were mad) and cleansing Western Civilizations from the clutches of these false gods. An Oracle last started the mass killing of Christians with a decree from a Demon (no doubt). Jesus forewarned them so they would not be taken by surprise and maybe lose they Faith, like Judas betrayed Jesus. That is why vs. 13 says you (Disciples) must endure until the end [of your lives]. Then in vs. 14 Jesus gave the Disciples a 100 percent foolproof way of not being deceived at the 70 AD events, he said the Gospel must be preached unto the ENDS OF THE World, and only then will the end (70th week) come. So, the Disciples foreknew it all, they knew of India, China and the Scythians (modern day Russia) thus they knew 100 percent they would never see Jesus' return in their lifetimes, thus when they heard of the 67-70 AD events and men claiming to be the messiah, and the Fourth Beast attacking they knew it was it Jesus' 2nd Coming. Then the AoD happens, AFTER the 70th week starts of course, but after the Rapture has been preached unto all the World as vs. 14 shows, which means the Rapture happens and the Gentile Church Age ends. I will post Matthew 24:29-31 to show you why people get it so wrong brother. And I will match it up with Zech. 14:1-3 it will show you how and why Prophesy can sometimes be confusing, its speaking about things that happen over many, many years thus we can not expect to get minute details filled in else Isaiah and Daniel would have to be huge books where the overall thrusts of the boo got lost, could you image Daniel being 200 chapters? Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened(MID POINT), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then (1260 days later) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. You do understand there will be "Elect" who get saved during the 70th week right? As a matter of fact the 3.5-5 million Jews who repent (1/3) will be in the Petra/Bozrah area when Jesus returns. As per vs. 29 Immediately after the Troubles of those days, (Well WHAT TROUBLES?) the Sun and Moon go dark and the Stars fall (Well WHEN?). The problem with Prophetic understanding is we have to dig in deep or just refuse to read it, you can't understand it by repeating what other men's points are per se, people not called unto Prophesy tend to jump on things they agree with and never ask the tough questions like above. When does the Sun, Moon go dark and Stars (I think the stars refers to Satan being cast down to earth) get cast down to earth? It happens at the Midway point, the 1260 Event, not when Jesus returns. The First Four Trumps starts God's Wrath, the Seals are not Wrath (whole nother story) then we see the Sun & Moon go Dark and we still have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Woe to go, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, and Jesus only shows up at the 7th Vial. So, the IMMEDIATLY is referring to the Sun & Moon going dark after the Trump 2 Asteroid hits, not Jesus returning IMMEDIATLY AFTER that. And when he does return Rev. 19 shows we the Bride are with him and the Beast and his kings are still on earth. AND THEN...........1260 days later Jesus returns. Want to see an exact carbon copy of this in Zech. 14? Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. So, above in vs. 1 the 1260 DOTL arrives and the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering in vs. 2 but look below it also says THEN.........which is 1260 days after vs. 2. (Just like the JUMP between Matt. 24:29 and verse 30. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Prophecy has to be like this, the minutia can not be put in or else the books would be huge. So, yes Jesus will return, but it is 1260 days after the Sun and Moon goes dark. And yes God will gather the Elect who get saved during the 70th week, as Zech. 13:8-9 shows, 1/3 of the Jews repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. But the Church is not on earth, Rev. clearly shows us Marrying the Lamb in heaven, then returning with him later on in White Robes. As per 2 Thess. 2:1-5 I have explained it already above. Your point is no point, I have herd that put forth for 30 years. It says no such thing, you are repeating someone else's words without thinking it through. The SUBJCT is their fear, not the Anti-Christ. This they have no need to fear because the DOTL (God's Wrath) CAN NOT COME until both the Departure of the Church (which happens at the exact time the Anti-Christ makes his Agreement with Israel) and the Anti-Christ showing up on the scene must BOTH HAPPEN, before Wrath can fall, thus he tells them not to fear. Its really a simple verse made complex by overthinking and by mem repeating other men from years ago who got it all wrong. I am always wary of repeating other men's ideas, that is how we get stuff like the RCC is the Beast and the Pope is the false prophet etc. 4 hours ago, Triton57 said: 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: If you take verses 1-5 at face value and there's an apostasy, then you have the falling away, man of sin revealed, our gathering to Christ. In verses 6-8 state, if what withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, then our gathering to Christ must take place before the Wicked is revealed. Again, I explained this above in detail, there is no Departure from the Faith mentioned anywhere in the passage. But there is a Departure from the Earth. The whole "gathered before the gathering bit" is a clumsy attempt by some man long ago to confuse people (Satan loves to confuse us) into not seeing the overall point. Paul beseeches them via the GATHERING unto Christ (which he is saying should take away their fears) then he explains it all in verses 2-3. There can't be an Apostacy when the Church is not even on the earth. As a man of prophecy, I still try to keep the discussions going, but a man who can not see the Pre Trib Rapture can not understand the timings and thus can't not weave his way through the maze of prophecy without getting off course. So, an alert bell goes up and I have to listen very closely to anything they say on prophecy to make sure it passes the smell test of the Holy Spirt, heck as I showed in my other post, I try everything anyway, even when I hear from the holy spirit. 4 hours ago, Triton57 said: The one way that makes sense to me is that departure/falling away/apostasy has to do with rejecting God in some way, perhaps by Israel accepting the one that comes in his own name. Then in pride he will declare himself God after the restrainer is removed. Then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 all makes sense and fits together nicely. And Michael the archangel also fits nicely as the restrainer. It can only be the Departure of the Church brother. Why else would they have no need of fearing? The Rapture takes us away before the DOTL falls, heck even the Anti-Christ shows up before the DOTL falls. That is why Paul was so besides himself, as in WHAT.........Did I not tell you these things when I was with you before? 1 Thess. 4 the Rapture of the Church. Now you are fearing you are in God's Wrath? And Paul also told them this in 1 Thess. 1:10 1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. The Holy Ghost is not taken away, that is another misnomer he STOPS BLOCKING the Anti-Christ from coming forth, he does so via the Vessel of the Church, we stop him from coming forth, thus when we DEPART he will then be freed by the Holy Spirit to start up the 70th week events, which lead to Israel repenting and God judging the whole world. 4 hours ago, Triton57 said: My prayer is as the day approaches, those Jews in Israel will be open to hearing the truth, or at least exploring it. Yeshua already told us it was coming and what to watch for. I think part of the point of the strong delusion God will send is that they believe the lie of the man coming in his own name. There's some great Christian ministries, several Jewish Messianic ministries like One for Israel that are working diligently to talk to the Israelis and plant the seeds. The watchers will know the signs, and God will not lose any that are His. John 6:35-40 The 70th week will bring Israel unto repentance, that is what Daniel's 9:24-27 Decree was designed by God to do. But not until we the Church departs (time of the Gentiles = Our SERVICE) Israel never accept this Gentile King as their Messiah, that is also a misapplied passage, John 5:43 is speaking about the Pharisees who rejected Jesus but accepted men who came in their own name during the 67-70 AD Wars, the Pharisees were learned men, they knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast, so they saw the 67-70 AD events as when their "Messianic Leader" would show up, so they put forth a couple of people, as history shows, as the Messiah, so John 5:43 has already been fulfilled, it is not an end time prophesy. The strong delusion is many things, its got to do with how the earth is turning away from God especially the Western Civilizations, and thus since we are now rejecting God, He will send strong delusions to affirm their lies of Evolution, Atheism, Sexual Deviations etc. etc. If we read Matt. 24:24-28 we can see Jesus says it is impossible to deceive his elect because he FORETELLS them where he's going to be coming from, the Eastern Skies, and says do it look for me in the desert or in a storeroom, then he says he comes in the Eastern Skies, so they can not be deceived. 5 hours ago, Triton57 said: Ha, that's so crazy, I was just posting about this because there were some Daniel 8 references regarding the future and it seems to me that it shows the history of Medo-Persia, Greece, etc. through to Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the first abomination of desolation. The 2,300 days points back to then and as you say the evening and morning sacrifices point to the time the Maccabees said was the period it took on a 360-day calendar totalling 1,150 days, doubled is 2,300 evenings and mornings! Here's the short article if you're interested. Yes, that was a typo, I meant 1150 days. I will give it a look see after I post. But alas, this being 1150 days now fits the Anti-Christs timeline as the Beast (42 months). What gets me is they translated the exact same thing different in the same chapter. At the very end they call it the Evening and the Mornings instead of DAYS....LOL. But reading Daniel 8:23-25 this can only be the Anti-Christ, notice how vs. 25 ends... he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Just like the Rock that smashes the Feet of the Idol/Statue in Dan. 2, a Rock is cut out WITHOUT HANDS, Paul says Jesus will destroy him by the PRESNCE of his coming !! So, the Prince of princes is Jesus, thus Dan. 8 is about the Anti-Christ, not Antiochus. 5 hours ago, Triton57 said: I used to think this as well, but my perspective has been changing the more I take the fact that God is not done with Israel and the 70th week being about Israel to heart. I would recommend watching Chris White's Gog Magog video series too in addition to reading his book False Christ. I think he has some really good insights worth considering. I have read all the opinions on these things, one end of the spectrum to the other, finally I started just asking God to show me His truths, I now download mostly from one source, besides God wants to show us these things in the end times. Gog and Magog is a side war tbh, something God uses to bring Israel to a point where she once again trusts someone else (E.U.) over God. But I look at everything, so I will take a look see later on. Then explain (probably) why I disagree. 5 hours ago, Triton57 said: I hold that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential mainly because the seven angels aren't given their trumpets until after all 7 seals are opened. There's also distinctions between the trumpets and bowls. Well yes they are sequential in nature (even though the Seals are just a Metaphor for a Closed Scroll) in that Jesus has to allow the Trumps to be blown, then the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, but what I think you missed as per unto my point is the Seals ARE NOT WRATH. They are Prophetic Utterances of what is soon to come. In other words Joel in Joel 2:31 AND the 6th Seal are both describing the Fourth Trump Events that make the Sun and Moon go dark. The Asteroid HITTING in Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath, the Seals are not Wrath. they are Prophetic Utterances of Gods soon to come wrath (Seal #6) AND Jesus also foretells the Anti-Christs actions over the 42 months of his rule in Seals 1-5. 5 hours ago, Triton57 said: Yes I understand the foreshadow was fulfilled in Christ. The blood of bulls and bullocks was never sufficient to cover sin. The dictate of God was meant to be used as a foreshadow, but also remember that God Himself told the Jews to keep these ordinances forever. Does that mean they're still trying to atone for their sins? In the millennium Yeshua will be ruling over them. I've started to rethink what might be considered offensive when Christians think of the sacrifice. Not that it's needed for forgiveness of sin, that is done in Christ, but God made it an ordinance forever for the children of Israel and it was food for the priests as well. So maybe in the millennium it will be more like a holy and sanctified barbecue where the Son of God breaks bread and eats with His people as we all worship Him together. I'll be curious to find out, but not offended at the possibility. All these Practices however will be fulfilled in Christ Jesus, thus he will be their blood atonement forever, he will never have known sin (Unleavened Bread) He will always be the First-fruits that defeated Death. He will blow the Trump in Rev. 4:1 that ends the Church Age (actually his voice just reverberates like a Trump). He will still be Israel's Atonement during the 70th week (Feast of Atonement) and Jesus will dwell with Israel for 1000 years. Its given to the Jews so in these end times, Moses/Elijah can point out all these things we are doing unto the Jews, only a million times better, and they will then see the big picture. 5 hours ago, Triton57 said: I enjoy it too. I know there's a lot of heated discussions and everyone can be set in their ways for good reasons. I just want to learn more and pick up the little pearls for the bride and try and bring them all together for the best picture we can see. Looking up and forward to the promise and the blessed hope! Yes, and sometime when we say things it may seem like a lecture or rebuke, to some people and they get their feelings hurt, but they do not understand us sharpening swords is not offensive, it is how we learn. So, anytime I say something that might seem a little hard, I wish people would see it as just me being truthful, I neve get offended by ideas or discussions. Those who uses to say the Seals, Trumps and Vials are all the same events used to make me laugh inside, I was like yea there are 21 Events. But they were only half wrong, I learned, not from them per se, that we may not know all w think we do, when I saw the Seals were NEVER God's Wrath, only Jesus foretelling of this coming Wrath. That is why they were confused, they sat the 6th Seal as matching the Rev. 8 Fourth Trump well it does, because it is a Prophetic Utterance. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted August 30, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Triton57 said: I don't really have an issue with it being translated as departure or as falling away or as apostasy. IMO they are effectively the same thing, you depart from something, fall away or apostatize. What about the other half of that? 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Ignore the departure, there are two parts to that. Meaning that the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him must come after the man of sin is revealed. How? He opposes and exalts himself above God, sitting in the temple of God stating he is God and demanding worship. The coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him happens after that. Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Matthew 24:15-16, 29-31 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: … Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Even without an apostasy or a departure, whatever you wish to call it, the abomination of desolation and following unparalleled great tribulation in Judea happens first. There is also a logic problem. Verses 1-5 state the day of the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him cannot come unless there comes a departure (rapture) first and then the man of sin is revealed, so our departure (gathering to Him) cannot come until we're gathered to Him first and then the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: If you take verses 1-5 at face value and there's an apostasy, then you have the falling away, man of sin revealed, our gathering to Christ. In verses 6-8 state, if what withholdeth is the Holy Spirit, then our gathering to Christ must take place before the Wicked is revealed. The one way that makes sense to me is that departure/falling away/apostasy has to do with rejecting God in some way, perhaps by Israel accepting the one that comes in his own name. Then in pride he will declare himself God after the restrainer is removed. Then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 all makes sense and fits together nicely. And Michael the archangel also fits nicely as the restrainer. Ooh, that's a long one. I'm going to have to peruse that later. My prayer is as the day approaches, those Jews in Israel will be open to hearing the truth, or at least exploring it. Yeshua already told us it was coming and what to watch for. I think part of the point of the strong delusion God will send is that they believe the lie of the man coming in his own name. There's some great Christian ministries, several Jewish Messianic ministries like One for Israel that are working diligently to talk to the Israelis and plant the seeds. The watchers will know the signs, and God will not lose any that are His. John 6:35-40 Ha, that's so crazy, I was just posting about this because there were some Daniel 8 references regarding the future and it seems to me that it shows the history of Medo-Persia, Greece, etc. through to Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the first abomination of desolation. The 2,300 days points back to then and as you say the evening and morning sacrifices point to the time the Maccabees said was the period it took on a 360-day calendar totalling 1,150 days, doubled is 2,300 evenings and mornings! Here's the short article if you're interested. I used to think this as well, but my perspective has been changing the more I take the fact that God is not done with Israel and the 70th week being about Israel to heart. I would recommend watching Chris White's Gog Magog video series too in addition to reading his book False Christ. I think he has some really good insights worth considering. I hold that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential mainly because the seven angels aren't given their trumpets until after all 7 seals are opened. There's also distinctions between the trumpets and bowls. Yes I understand the foreshadow was fulfilled in Christ. The blood of bulls and bullocks was never sufficient to cover sin. The dictate of God was meant to be used as a foreshadow, but also remember that God Himself told the Jews to keep these ordinances forever. Does that mean they're still trying to atone for their sins? In the millennium Yeshua will be ruling over them. I've started to rethink what might be considered offensive when Christians think of the sacrifice. Not that it's needed for forgiveness of sin, that is done in Christ, but God made it an ordinance forever for the children of Israel and it was food for the priests as well. So maybe in the millennium it will be more like a holy and sanctified barbecue where the Son of God breaks bread and eats with His people as we all worship Him together. I'll be curious to find out, but not offended at the possibility. Yeah for sure lol! That might cost a pretty penny but sometimes there are places that will do at least some for free, hope you can find something to make it a little lighter on the pocketbook! Sometimes God's creation can be a little too resilient at being fruitful and multiplying! I enjoy it too. I know there's a lot of heated discussions and everyone can be set in their ways for good reasons. I just want to learn more and pick up the little pearls for the bride and try and bring them all together for the best picture we can see. Looking up and forward to the promise and the blessed hope! The son of perdition is revealed when he has become king in Daniel 11:21.,Christ comes and raises the dead in Daniel 12:1-2. Daniel 11:21 21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. The son of perdition gives Israel a host in danuel 11:31 to abolish the daily sacrifice. Daniel 11:31 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. The saints in Israel realize who he is then.The host given to Israel is described as being a beast with two horns like a lamb in revelation 13.It is at this time the saints in Israel are imprisoned and killed for preaching the gospel. Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Daniel 11:33 Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed. During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere. And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come. The son of perdition exalts himself as is his custom in Daniel 11:36 Daniel 11:36 The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. His armed forces stationed in Israel is attacked in Daniel 11:40. Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He responds by destroying and innihilating many in Daniel 11:44 Daniel 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. It is at this time that he uses the abomination of desolation causing great tribulation such as the world has not seen. Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame. And as Paul said ,the Son of perdition is destroyed at Christs coming.The dead are raised in Daniel 12:2 ,and the son of perdition comes to his end in Daniel 11:45 Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And you correct about the falling away.Jesus spoke of it in the gospel. Mathew 24 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Edited August 30, 2023 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton57 Posted August 31, 2023 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 On 8/28/2023 at 2:31 AM, Diaste said: I understand. However, a book about events and the order is difficult to write, and would appear quite disorderly, if every event is placed with every other event in time as they occur. The focus on the specific events would be lost. Like a novel for instance. We see the main plot. A chapter describes people and events that move toward the climax. The next chapter reveals other people and events moving toward the same climax, and so on, until all the people and events reach the nexus. That's how Revelation is written. Some of it's in order, some of it describes event overall, then retreats to give a more detailed look into the action, some of it is in a strict order. I was taught it was linear. In reading the book it turns out there are linear elements, but not strictly linear 1-22. I would agree it's not all completely linear, there are pieces here and there. But I think it explains itself in the relevant places, sometimes subtly, or there wouldn't be so much disagreement. And there are some sections that appear to come out of the blue, like Revelation 7 splitting the 6th and 7th seals. However, when you look at the symphony of scripture I believe you find precept upon precept, here a little there a little, all pointing to the same timeline that confirms Israel will be protected around the time the multitudes make it to heaven after the sixth seal and before the wrath of God has begun. Quote I haven't given much thought to what is contained in the book other than it's the revealing of how the last 7 years are administered. It seems a simple thing in my mind the book[scroll] in question contains what is revealed in Revelation. Yes, I think it was Chuck Missler that described it as a title deed for earth, written on both sides and sealed. And that in breaking the seals to open it, could read it. The idea of the judgments, known and sealed before they happened and awaiting One worthy to judge. John 5:27 Quote The bowls are specifically described as the wrath of God, seals and trumps are not. Unless some other info arises of which I am at present unaware, then seals and trumps are not God's display of unrelenting wrath, only the bowls are. I must fall back to the natural reading first. The rapture is not in the Bible, but the concept is. I believe if we look at what the wrath of God is from scripture, it doesn't have to explicitly say wrath of God for it to be. We know the unparalleled tribulation is followed by the sixth seal and Christ coming in power and gathering the elect from Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These are the same signs of the day of the Lord, which I believe scripture shows as the wrath of God. Isaiah 13:10-13 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isaiah 2:12-21 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Psalm 18:6,7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? There are many passages all relating the shaking of the earth, the wrath of God the signs of the sixth seal, and even the people of earth who may not even believe in God are said to recognized what it is. Then just after the sixth seal we see the four angels who it is given to hurt the earth and sea not to until the 144,000 are sealed. Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Then the seventh seal happens in Revelation 8:1 and then the seven trumpets are given out and then we suddenly see the earth and sea being hurt. I agree the seals are not God's wrath, they seem to cover the time before the day of the Lord, but the sixth and seventh seals complete that and the day of the Lord is the wrath of God and all the events of the trumpets and bowls are what people today would call acts of God, natural events that cause great death and destruction caused by angels of God. Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! I also have a theory that the seventh trumpet, the third woe, occurs over the duration of the seven bowls. Revelation 10:5-7 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The seventh angel will be sounding for days in which time the mystery of God should be finished. And in Revelation 15:5-7 we see the angels with the seven bowls full of the wrath of God come out. Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. These seven bowls are called the seven last plagues, meaning there were plagues before them and they are not THE wrath of God, but they fill up (bring to a close) the wrath of God. This is more or less why I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential in nature, because that's how they're described with the angels not showing up until the seals are finished for the 7 trumpets and the trumpets are finished for the seven bowls. In addition to the trumpets comprising the seven first plagues containing the wrath of God followed by the seven last plagues that complete the wrath of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 31, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,641 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,373 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: I would agree it's not all completely linear, there are pieces here and there. But I think it explains itself in the relevant places, sometimes subtly, or there wouldn't be so much disagreement. And there are some sections that appear to come out of the blue, like Revelation 7 splitting the 6th and 7th seals. However, when you look at the symphony of scripture I believe you find precept upon precept, here a little there a little, all pointing to the same timeline that confirms Israel will be protected around the time the multitudes make it to heaven after the sixth seal and before the wrath of God has begun. I don't agree with the dispensationalists and their pretrib replacement theology but they don't have it all wrong. One of the ideas that came up so very long ago is exactly what you mention. There will be a contingent of Jews from Jerusalem in particular, and/or Israel at large, that are protected during the wrath of God. I see that in Zechariah 14: Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city. 3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.a I don't consider these to be the 144k. What the dispensationalists say about this has to do with national, natural, orthodox Jewry in Israel finally calling on the one true God to be their savior. From what I hear, they call on the Lord with one voice, all in agreement, the Lord hears them and rescues them, and the Day of Lord at the end of the age begins. I see nothing in scripture disputing this idea and there are precedents for events just like this notably, the Red Sea crossing. 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: I must fall back to the natural reading first. The rapture is not in the Bible, but the concept is. I believe if we look at what the wrath of God is from scripture, it doesn't have to explicitly say wrath of God for it to be. We know the unparalleled tribulation is followed by the sixth seal and Christ coming in power and gathering the elect from Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These are the same signs of the day of the Lord, which I believe scripture shows as the wrath of God. True. The rapture as popularly known is not in scripture. The gathering of the elect is. The two are comparable in concept but otherwise differ greatly. I also agree with GT followed by Christ's return and the gathering, immediately before wrath falls. Where I'm hesitant is when scripture specifically describes a thing and then doesn't use that same specific language for another thing, event, person, place, or action. In this case the bowls are specifically described as God's wrath where seals and trumps are not. It's kind of the same with the rapture. In the classic rapture proofs of 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 there is no timing in relation the another event outside the description of the events associated with the coming of Jesus and the gathering; Jesus descends, the trump is blown, the shout of the archangel, the dead rise first, etc. None of that is timed around a seal, a trump, the midpoint, the revealing, etc., in those verses. In other scripture we are given timing of the Return of the King and the gathering and it's specified as after GT, after the signs of the sun, moon and stars, and that GT is cut short, then the Lord come and the elect are gathered. That then disputes the validity of the pretrib scenario. Just like wrath is specific to the bowls, but trumps are not called wrath. If one is described as wrath and the other is not, I cannot make the assumption trumps have anything more to do with wrath apart from the 7th trump as a herald. 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: Isaiah 13:10-13 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isaiah 2:12-21 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Psalm 18:6,7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? There are many passages all relating the shaking of the earth, the wrath of God the signs of the sixth seal, and even the people of earth who may not even believe in God are said to recognized what it is. Then just after the sixth seal we see the four angels who it is given to hurt the earth and sea not to until the 144,000 are sealed. Yep. I agree. 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Then the seventh seal happens in Revelation 8:1 and then the seven trumpets are given out and then we suddenly see the earth and sea being hurt. I agree the seals are not God's wrath, they seem to cover the time before the day of the Lord, but the sixth and seventh seals complete that and the day of the Lord is the wrath of God and all the events of the trumpets and bowls are what people today would call acts of God, natural events that cause great death and destruction caused by angels of God. Sure. However: 6th Seal 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” 7th Trump The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead and to reward Your servants the prophets, as well as the saints and those who fear Your name, both small and great— and to destroy those who destroy the earth. So unless wrath begins twice, then the 6th seal impending wrath and the 7th trump impending wrath are one and the same. 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: I also have a theory that the seventh trumpet, the third woe, occurs over the duration of the seven bowls. Yes. The 7th trump is the last trump of which Paul spoke. That last trump is not only the trump associated with Jesus return and the gathering, it is the herald of wrath too. 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: Revelation 10:5-7 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The seventh angel will be sounding for days in which time the mystery of God should be finished. And in Revelation 15:5-7 we see the angels with the seven bowls full of the wrath of God come out. I like to be as literalist as I can be but I'm convinced that 'in the days' is euphemistic for the 'time when the 7th trump sounds' not that it sounds for a prescribed amount of days. I could be wrong. When a trump sounds it's not a single blast, it's some several blasts. I'm good with that, just not for days on end. 2 hours ago, Triton57 said: Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. These seven bowls are called the seven last plagues, meaning there were plagues before them and they are not THE wrath of God, but they fill up (bring to a close) the wrath of God. This is more or less why I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential in nature, because that's how they're described with the angels not showing up until the seals are finished for the 7 trumpets and the trumpets are finished for the seven bowls. In addition to the trumpets comprising the seven first plagues containing the wrath of God followed by the seven last plagues that complete the wrath of God. Yes. I understand. Seals and trumps are all plagues. A plague of mice or rabbits isn't God's wrath. I don't think Covid was God's wrath. I think there is a very serious and terrifying plague of deception getting worse by the minute, but I don't think it's God's wrath. 'Filled up' is "teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos)." It's more like the next step in the overall plan, not like the completion of something that came before. It's the plan that has reached completion in it's final phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton57 Posted September 3, 2023 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 8/28/2023 at 4:16 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said: "And Daniel continued (in Babylon) even unto the first year of king Cyrus. " Daniel 1:21 "to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah... to fulfill 70 years. Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus..." 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 By the above two passages we understand that Daniel was in Babylon for the whole 70 years. "I Daniel understood by the books, the number of years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolation of Jerusalem. And I prayed unto the Lord my God... O Lord according to all they righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem..." Daniel 9:2-16 In chapter 8 Gabriel was sent to Daniel to explain the vision Daniel saw, Daniel 8:16 and he gives a specific explanation of that vision; Daniel 8:20-25. Now in chapter 9, Gabriel appears again, giving Daniel more understanding of the 70 year captivity that Daniel was in, that was reaching it's end. (In chapter 10 it's the third year of Cyrus) "Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city.... to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (as literal King of kings, the beginning of the 1000 years) Daniel 9:24 70 sets of 70 year captivities, 4,900 total years. And we can see in history multiple times Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies and made desolate and rebuilt, multiple 70 year periods. 0 - 70ad, 1090-1260, 1967 - and ongoing. I'm also unsure of any translation that would translate sabua as captivities. Looking at all the other passages using H7620, none of them use that context, it's usually weeks or seven and that fits with the context of those passages. I also have trouble accepting that the 70 years of captivity is some kind of a standard number for captivity that would be applied the same time after time. Leviticus 26:14-18 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. There is a standard of punishment 7 times for Israel's sins, but I don't see the 70 times 70. Perhaps I'm just not understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton57 Posted September 3, 2023 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 8/29/2023 at 2:31 PM, WilliamL said: Neither Jeremiah nor Yeshua even hint about a 7-year period in the End Times. Any such idea is a doctrine of men, not the Scriptures. I'm not saying Jeremiah or Yeshua speak of a 7-year period, I'm saying that Daniel does in 9:27 when talking about the abomination of desolation in the midst of that week. All four passages prophesied by Daniel, Jeremiah and Yeshua (Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:4-7, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14), have the same language that states each of those three times are unparalleled in history AND that Jacob is saved out of that time, it's cut short. It is therefore logically relevant that all three of these passages are speaking of the same unparalleled time. Once that is established that Daniel places the abomination of desolation in the midst of this week of years, and Yeshua Himself points to that event from Daniel, each of those passages have a little additional understanding to build a vision of that time. Yeshua points to that declaration of Daniel of the timing of the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week stating that when the AoD Daniel talked about happens (whoso readeth, let him understand), run or die in great tribulation. Daniel 9:27: AoD happens in the midst of a week of years determined for Israel and Jerusalem This desolation will last until the consummation (completion [of the week]) That determined [wrath of God] will be poured out on the desolate [beast and followers] Yeshua (Matthew 24:15-31): Daniel's AoD will be the start of an unparallel time of great tribulation When those in Judea see it happen, run for the mountains, leaving their lives behind. [seek to save their life they will lose it, willing to lose their lives they will save them.] If the days are not shortened, no flesh would be saved Days of this unparalleled time will be shortened for the sake of the elect Revelation 12:14-16 Israel is whisked into the wilderness and protected for 3 1/2 years from the dragon Don't look for Christ on the earth because there will be false christs deceiving The coming of the Son of man will be as lightning from the East to the West After the unparalleled tribulation of those days, the sun, moon and stars will herald the sixth seal They will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory He will send His angels with the sound of the trumpet and gather His elect Yeshua (Mark 13:14-27): Daniel's AoD will be the start of an unparalleled time of affliction When those in Judea see it happen, run for the mountains, leaving their lives behind. [seek to save their life they will lose it, willing to lose their lives they will save them.] If the days are not shortened, no flesh would be saved Revelation 12:14-16 Israel is whisked into the wilderness and protected for 3 1/2 years from the dragon Days of this unparalleled time will be shortened for the sake of the elect Don't look for Christ on the earth because there will be false christs deceiving After the unparalleled tribulation of those days, the sun, moon and stars will herald the sixth seal They will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory He will send His angels with the sound of the trumpet and gather His elect Jeremiah 30:1-9: The time will come when Israel and Judah will return to the land to possess it as promised Concerning Israel and Judah, there will be a voice of trembling, fear and not peace where men will be travailing as if giving birth and everyone will have their faces turned pale. The time of Jacob's trouble is so great there is none like it Jacob will be saved out of this unparalleled time Revelation 12:14-16 Israel is whisked into the wilderness and protected for 3 1/2 years from the dragon In the day he is saved out of it, the Lord will break the yoke from their neck and release their bonds and they will never more serve strangers. They will serve the Lord their God and David their king who he will raise up to them. Daniel 12:1-4: Michael, the great prince that stands for Daniel's people will stand up 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12: Something is witholding the revealing of the man of sin so he's revealed in his time The mystery of iniquity is already at work He who now holds will be taken out of the way Then the wicked will be revealed (whom the Lord will destroy at His coming Revelation 19:20) The one revealed is after the working of Satan with all power an signs and lying wonders Revelation 12:7-13 Michael and his angels cast the dragon and his angels to the earth When the dragon is cast to earth, he persecutes Israel Revelation 13:1-8 The dragon gives the beast from the sea his power, seat and great authority The beast is wounded and healed, causing wonder by the world The world worship the dragon who gave power to the beast The world worship the beast recognizing they cannot defeat his power The beast speaks great blasphemeis and is given power for 42 months All on the earth will worship him whose names aren't in the book of lifed When he does there will be a time of trouble that has never happened before The portion of Daniel's people who are found written in the book will be delivered out of this time Putting this all together, partway through a seven-year period Daniel defined as starting with the confirming of a covenant, Michael the archangel will stop restraining the revealing of the man of sin at which time what he does to reveal himself will be allowed and he will stand in the temple declaring that he is God and demanding worship. At that time, in the midst of the 7 years defined by Daniel, the time of unparalleled great tribulation will begin, lasting for 3 1/2 years. The dragon will give the man of sin his power and authority and he will go after the people in Judea who do not worship him first, but those who are God's will be taken to the wilderness and protected for 3 1/2 years. Quote Nor does Daniel ever suggest at all that the 70th week will take place in the End Times. Not a peep at all about the End Times is found in Daniel 9. Again, this is a doctrine of men. I don't believe these requirements were fulfilled in either 167 BC, 30 AD, or 70 AD and from that time there has been no temple. Was there some sort of covenant Titus or someone else made concerning Israel and Jerusalem 3 1/2 years prior to the destruction? I know just before Passover the armies began surrounding Jerusalem, which is around 3 1/2 years prior to its destruction. What about 3 1/2 years after? If we assume Av 9 as the AoD, whether we count exact days or months before and after that time, what are the events that would fulfill the destruction of the beast who starts the time of unparalleled great tribulation lasting 3 1/2 years or 42 months? Was Titus then the antichrist? 2/4/67 - Adar I 1 - 42 months (Julian) 2/21/67 - Adar I 18 - 1,260 days 3/23/67 - Adar II 18 - 1,230 days --- 4/?/67 - Vespasian arrives in Ptolemais and begins campaign in Israel --- 8/4/70 - Av 9 - Destruction of the temple | Abomination of Desolation? --- 4/16/73 - Nisan 21 - From AoD to breach at Masada = 986 days --- 1/15/74 - Tevet 28 - 1,260 days 2/4/74 - Shevat 19 - 42 months (Julian) 2/14/74 - Shevat 29 - 1,290 days Even what Daniel 8 and Daniel 11 speak of historically for Antiochus Epiphanes IV had the stopping of the daily sacrifice, but Antiochus did not declare himself God in the temple, he made them worship idols setup in the temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 has the requirement of declaring himself God. Furthermore, since this happened almost 200 years before Christ, it clearly doesn't fit into the scope of Daniel's prophecy, which places Yeshua's resurrection and ascension after the 69 weeks and before the destruction of the city and sanctuary. 167 BC places the AoD before Christ is born and therefore before the 69 weeks are over. 70 AD places the AoD after the cutting off of the Messiah 40 years previous, but if the city and temple were destroyed in verse 26, what is the AoD in verse 27? The temple has been destroyed so there is no wing upon which to place the abomination that makes desolate. So in my understanding this leaves a future point in time where a seven-year period will begin with the confirmation of a covenant and in the midst of that week of years the events of Revelation and many other places in the Old and New Testaments will unfold. Isaiah 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: I'm trying to understand the scope of prophecies tied throughout scripture to this time and how that could be viewed as historically fulfilled when so much tied to that time has not happened. Perhaps it comes down to willingness to associate the plain text to spiritual conceptions vs. taking it at face value. I need to better understand the reasoning behind the historical view. I would love any detailed resources you may have on this. Quote As far as the translation of הַבָּא, it literally means "the one coming in." This is an active participle with the prefix הַ, which means "the." An accurate translation of verse 27 can be found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/ -- from which this is the introduction: And now we come to what may be the most variously translated – and mistranslated – verse of the Bible, Daniel 9:27. To quote from Part 1: “The translatorʼs dilemma is compounded when he has no clear understanding of the doctrine or prophecy being expressed! In such cases, the interpretation often reflects the presumptions of the translator.” Well, a plethora of presumptions have been inserted into the various translations of verse 27. The translation below will strictly follow the rules of biblical Hebrew grammar. So as I understand your translation, there are some variances from other translations I would agree, but it seems to be saying the same thing. Your skills in Hebrew are far beyond mine in any language! Quote “And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week…” There is a defining of a week, and in the context of the prophecy of 70 weeks, this would be the last. Looking back on history we know this must be a week of years because the Messiah didn't come after 69 literal weeks from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem. So this last week is a period of seven years. Quote “…and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. …” This would seem to match up with my understanding as well. Quote “… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…” This fits with Daniel 11:31 placing the abomination and the placement of an idol by Antiochus. The yet unfulfilled occurrence would be tied to the idol of the man of sin, given power by the dragon declaring himself to be god. The false prophet makes an image of the beast, which could also be placed in the temple to be worshipped. It would make sense that the destroyer, whose idols they are would ultimately be the dragon. Quote “…even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.” This is one of those parts, in addition to the list of verse 24 that seems yet fulfilled, speaking of the time after the AoD, where we have the prophecies of how long the beast is given power for, 42 months or 3 1/2 years, that starts at the AoD and ends when Yeshua returns and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and chains the dragon in the pit. I believe a/the completion or consummation is referring to the previous mention of a time, either the week or the midst of it. Both have the same completion or end. The whole time during that reign, the wrath of God will be poured out on the beast and his kingdom and indeed the whole earth. This is another part that is yet unfulfilled causing difficulty in accepting a historical fulfillment of the AoD and/or part/all of the 70th week of Daniel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton57 Posted September 3, 2023 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 8/30/2023 at 7:16 AM, Revelation Man said: That is not what Paul was saying. By reading 1 Thessalonians we can see Paul had already explained these things unto them, thus when he got a letter (the problem with Epistles is we do not get the full back and forth by both sides) and they were telling him they thought they were in God's Wrath, he chastises them and explains why they can not be in the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) and then in vs. 5 says did I not tell you all this when I was with you? So, Paul explains why they can not be in the DOTL and thus should not fear [that they are]. The problem is men do not read old English well, especially when its translated from the Greek. 2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(ask urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, So, we ask URGENTLY (why?) because of verse 2, they were fearing they were in the DOTL, that is the reason he mentions in vs. 1 why they are urgently relaying this information, (Rapture) so they would not fear (vs. 2). 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled(Fear of being in God's Wrath), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us(someone had sent them a letter and said Paul says we are in God's Wrath or the DOTL or something to that affect), as that the day of Christ is at hand(Christ is Lord so DOTL/God's Wrath). 3 Let no man deceive you by any means(they had been LIED UNTO): for that day(DOTL) shall not come, except there come a falling away first(Church is Raptured), AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What you do is conflate it because (IMHO) they way its worded. Here is what Paul just said in modern English. Stop FEARING you are in God's Wrath guys !! Do not buy into anyone lies that told you we said this, we are urgently telling you that we will be gathered unto Christ before all of this can happen, not only that but the coming Anti-Christ must also be at hand (REVEALED just means alive really) before the DOTL can happen. So, it does not mean the Coming of our Lord can't happen until after he is revealed (or is alive on earth) it means just the opposite, you are taking the Anti-Christ as being that which is the SUBJECT, it is not, the SUBJECT is the DOTL and their Fear that they are in the DOTL. So, Paul says hold up guys, both of these things have to happen before we can be in the DOTL, the Church must DEPART [this earth] AND the Anti-Christ has to be alive and on the end time scene (70th week Agreement is made) THEN God's Wrath falls in the middle of the week. So, all he is saying is before God's Wrath can fall the Anti-Christ has to make his Agreements spoken of in Dan. 9:24-27. Nowhere does that passage say or imply the Gathering must be after the Anti-Christ is revealed it says both the Gathering unto Jesus (Rapture) AND the Anti-Christ must happen BEFORE God's Wrath falls. The subject is the Thessalonians Fears that they were in the DOTL, its not the Rapture or the Anti-Christ per se, they are both used as descriptors to show why the Thessalonians should not fear that they were in the DOTL God's Wrath. Now below Paul explains what the Anti-Christ will do, and thus they therefore knew they could not be in Gods Wrath because no such thing was going on at the Temple of God in 51-52 A.D. There was no man sitting in the Temple claiming to be God at that time. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth(Stops the Anti-Christ from coming forth) that he might be revealed in his time(Much later on). 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth(Binds) will let (binds), until he be taken out of the way(The Anti-Christ through the Church WITHHOLDS the Anti-Christ from coming forth. Remember Jesus said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against my Church). 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed(After the Church that WITHHOLDETH Departs), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Lets see we had a Beast from Babylon to Rome, then the Church shows up and delivers the Mortal Wound the 7 Headed Beast (Rome went away and Israel was no nation for nigh 2000 years) thus went dormant, there can be no Beast without Israel in the land to Beast over, the Church's SERVICE is now at hand and has been since God rent the temple the day Jesus died, it is called the Time of the Gentiles (SERVICE). Once we are Raptured the plate will once again be set for Israel service, she birthed the Messiah amongst the Roman Beast. Now she will will repent amongst the Anti-Christ Beast (7th Head that revives the Dead Beast System) and Jesus will usher in the Kingdom Age where he rules from Jerusalem amongst the Jews for 1000 years. The biggest problem with Epistles is we do not get both sides of the correspondences and a guy writing will some times say, when I was with you I told you "these things" and leave those things out, whereas with "Thus Saith the Lord" Scriptures in the Old Testament God was writing directly unto Israel (and all men). I suppose my conflation is that the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him is the day of Christ that they are afraid they were in, because if they were in the day of the Lord, they knew they would have missed the gathering to the Lord. I would add that this isn't the only passage I define this timing of "the coming of our Lord and our gathering to him" as tied to the day of the Lord. Isaiah 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: Matthew 24:15-31 and Mark 13:14-27 both give the same sequence of events as laid out by Paul to the church of Thessalonica. I agree that they were afraid the day of the Lord was at hand because that is tied to the catching away of the bride of Christ. In both passages the man of sin is revealed followed by unparalleled tribulation and then the time is cut short and the remnant saved. Then in the time after that unparalleled tribulation, we see the signs of the sixth seal described, the son of man coming in great power and glory and the angels gathering His elect. Combined with the same description of the sun, moon, and star event in Revelation 6:12-17 heralding the day of the Lord, we see the next chapter that the 144,000 are sealed and the multitude who was just gathered. The gathering was after Christ's coming in glory, which was after the sixth seal, which was after the unparalleled tribulation, which was after the revealing of the man of sin, which was after the abomination of desolation. So if apostasia is departure and it must come before the day of Christ, can that be squared with the sequence of events that Yeshua stated would lead to His return and what Paul defined as the reason for the letter, "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him?" I don't think it's a mistake Paul said it this way, because His coming and our gathering to Him occur at the same time, after the signs of the sun moon star at the sixth seal, all of which is after the revealing of the man of sin as that sign is after the tribulation of those days. Logically then apostasia cannot mean departure in the context of the bride of Christ being caught up because Yeshua, Paul, and John all lay it out as happening after the revealing and it being tied to the day of the Lord. Quote Again, this is just not the case. The Rapture happens first, but IMHO it does not cause the 70th week, Israel joining the European Union causes the Rapture, because that begins God's clock of penance against Israel again, "they give His land away" or what amounts to it by joining the E.U. after the Gog & Magog war. Are there any scriptures that would indicate Israel joining the European Union causes the start of the 70th week or tie it to any kind of land giveaway? Were the first 69 weeks related to giving away the land? It would seem the first 69 weeks are related to restoring Israel to the land. We've seen over the past century how Israel has come into the land and through several wars taken it, but they still don't have all of Jerusalem. I would posit as opposed to giving away of the land, that the 70th week would start as soon as Israel controls both Jerusalem and the temple. That would seem to be more consistent with the historical application of the 70 weeks, but I could be wrong. Quote Then the AoD happens, AFTER the 70th week starts of course, but after the Rapture has been preached unto all the World as vs. 14 shows, which means the Rapture happens and the Gentile Church Age ends. I will post Matthew 24:29-31 to show you why people get it so wrong brother. And I will match it up with Zech. 14:1-3 it will show you how and why Prophesy can sometimes be confusing, its speaking about things that happen over many, many years thus we can not expect to get minute details filled in else Isaiah and Daniel would have to be huge books where the overall thrusts of the boo got lost, could you image Daniel being 200 chapters? Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened(MID POINT), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then (1260 days later) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. What causes you to add 1,260 days to the signs of the sixth seal? Quote You do understand there will be "Elect" who get saved during the 70th week right? As a matter of fact the 3.5-5 million Jews who repent (1/3) will be in the Petra/Bozrah area when Jesus returns. Yes, there are 50% of the church who will be shut out of the marriage of the Lamb (Matthew 25:1-13) and cast into great tribulation (Revelation 2:22) because they did not repent of their idolatry and had no relationship with Christ. They counted themselves as the church, but like Israel they spoke of God but their hearts were far from God. In addition there will be those who refuse the mark at pain of death. It is my belief that only those who have turned to Christ would have any reason not to take the mark and worship the beast. Atheists will be confronted with a man with supernatural power and there is no meaning in life outside of experiencing it before it's over. For other religions I would imagine that there will be a limit to what they're willing to hold onto at pain of death and will have to choose to keep their religion and die or convert to worship the beast. Christians will have the same issue, which is what I believe is meant by the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia is promised to be kept from. Revelation 3:10 In addition, Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years from the beast. This week is surrounding them coming to repentance and calling on the name of the Lord, accepting the Messiah they were blinded to until the fulness of the Gentiles. 144,000 of them will be sealed and protected from the fifth trumpet and all of natural Israel protected during that time will be refined to the end of the week when they will emerge from protection into the millennial kingdom where they will be ruled by their Messiah as prophesied. Quote As per vs. 29 Immediately after the Troubles of those days, (Well WHAT TROUBLES?) the Sun and Moon go dark and the Stars fall (Well WHEN?). The problem with Prophetic understanding is we have to dig in deep or just refuse to read it, you can't understand it by repeating what other men's points are per se, people not called unto Prophesy tend to jump on things they agree with and never ask the tough questions like above. I agree 100%, I stopped listening to teachers and turned to the Spirit for guidance. God didn't say only the smart ones who can talk well will understand. God said the wise would understand. Intelligence doesn't define wisdom, trusting God's Word is wise and He has promised that He will tell His friends what He is doing. Having an Acts 17:11 mentality is critical when studying not just prophecy, but all things God has told us. I think God is logical and just as He hid aspects of His Word in plain sight by building precept on precept, line on line, here a little there a little so that Israel would stumble. I believe this means not seeing the forest for the trees. For instance they read through the Torah all the time, it's a ritual, they have laws they are legalistically upholding. Their focus is on each piece individually, but how many study the prophets? How many still are blinded to Isaiah 53? God spread the vision of the future throughout the whole of the Book written of Him, that we would have to study and show ourselves approved, looking not to our own understanding but rather the Spirit of God revealed by taking His Word seriously and accepting Him at His Word, finding the correlations throughout and piecing together His design and plan. It is very complicated and as excited as I get understanding things through self-study, most responses are fear, anxiety, glazed eyes, etc. It was frustrating at first, but I've learned to let go of my desire to shake people awake and instead do what I can to get information out there and if I'm on the right track, God will bring whoever needs to hear it to either correct my errors or gain some little insight from what I've been shown in His Word. Quote When does the Sun, Moon go dark and Stars (I think the stars refers to Satan being cast down to earth) get cast down to earth? It happens at the Midway point, the 1260 Event, not when Jesus returns. The First Four Trumps starts God's Wrath, the Seals are not Wrath (whole nother story) then we see the Sun & Moon go Dark and we still have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Woe to go, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, and Jesus only shows up at the 7th Vial. So, the IMMEDIATLY is referring to the Sun & Moon going dark after the Trump 2 Asteroid hits, not Jesus returning IMMEDIATLY AFTER that. And when he does return Rev. 19 shows we the Bride are with him and the Beast and his kings are still on earth. I agree the seals are not God's wrath. Would you say the day of the Lord begins the wrath of God then? Quote AND THEN...........1260 days later Jesus returns. Want to see an exact carbon copy of this in Zech. 14? Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. So, above in vs. 1 the 1260 DOTL arrives and the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering in vs. 2 but look below it also says THEN.........which is 1260 days after vs. 2. (Just like the JUMP between Matt. 24:29 and verse 30. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Prophecy has to be like this, the minutia can not be put in or else the books would be huge. So, yes Jesus will return, but it is 1260 days after the Sun and Moon goes dark. And yes God will gather the Elect who get saved during the 70th week, as Zech. 13:8-9 shows, 1/3 of the Jews repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. But the Church is not on earth, Rev. clearly shows us Marrying the Lamb in heaven, then returning with him later on in White Robes. Where would you place Revelation 7? Would you consider this innumerable multitude in heaven to be the raptured faithful bride from history to the point of the rapture? Revelation 19:7-10 shows the marriage of the Lamb and her clothed in the same fine linen clean and white that 11-16 shows her in following Christ at His return. I don't see any mention of a resurrection at that time, only in Revelation 20:4-6 after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the dragon bound for 1,000 years is there a specific mention. Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. To me this shows, as written without chapter breaks, a clear sequence of events from the marriage of the Lamb in heaven, to returning with Christ from heaven at Armageddon, to the beast and false prohet being thrown into the lake of fire, dragon bound for 1,000 years and then the 3rd harvest of the first resurrection at the beginning of the 1,000 years after Christ has returned to reign with Him 1,000 years. Quote As per 2 Thess. 2:1-5 I have explained it already above. Your point is no point, I have herd that put forth for 30 years. It says no such thing, you are repeating someone else's words without thinking it through. The SUBJCT is their fear, not the Anti-Christ. This they have no need to fear because the DOTL (God's Wrath) CAN NOT COME until both the Departure of the Church (which happens at the exact time the Anti-Christ makes his Agreement with Israel) and the Anti-Christ showing up on the scene must BOTH HAPPEN, before Wrath can fall, thus he tells them not to fear. Its really a simple verse made complex by overthinking and by mem repeating other men from years ago who got it all wrong. I am always wary of repeating other men's ideas, that is how we get stuff like the RCC is the Beast and the Pope is the false prophet etc. Well I hope I was able to sufficiently demonstrate my logic reading the Word myself and putting together the connection points outside of any other teachers' definitions. To that point, I don't think that accusation can be thrown about in this day and age as we all, whether knowing it or not, are reading the same Word and standing on the backs of thousands of years of Christians trying to understand God's Word and what it means regarding the future. Quote Again, I explained this above in detail, there is no Departure from the Faith mentioned anywhere in the passage. But there is a Departure from the Earth. The whole "gathered before the gathering bit" is a clumsy attempt by some man long ago to confuse people (Satan loves to confuse us) into not seeing the overall point. Paul beseeches them via the GATHERING unto Christ (which he is saying should take away their fears) then he explains it all in verses 2-3. There can't be an Apostacy when the Church is not even on the earth. As a man of prophecy, I still try to keep the discussions going, but a man who can not see the Pre Trib Rapture can not understand the timings and thus can't not weave his way through the maze of prophecy without getting off course. So, an alert bell goes up and I have to listen very closely to anything they say on prophecy to make sure it passes the smell test of the Holy Spirt, heck as I showed in my other post, I try everything anyway, even when I hear from the holy spirit. I would point out that it is "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him." Paul ties these two events together, which is also seen in the Olivet Discourse account as well. I understand the pre-trib perspective and used to hold to it when I just accepted the clear intelligence and depth of scriptural understanding that Chuck Missler had. However, it was when I stopped "repeating someone else's words without thinking it through" and started seeking in prayer an understanding according to God's Word and not my own desires that I started to come to conclusions on my own. You know I actually thought at first I was the first one to see a pre-wrath rapture? Ha, the arrogance! I was in my pre-trib echo chamber for some time. I've battled with pride many a time in my walk with God to understand His Word. All that I know is that I don't know everything. I look for opportunities to sharpen iron with different perspectives from scripture because I've learned a lot hearing other perspectives and challenging my own with them as I search the scriptures to see if they're true. Sometimes I find they are and I correct my understanding while other times I'm unable to find scripture stating that or the whole council of scripture points to a different interpretation of that one part to make it fit with the whole. Quote It can only be the Departure of the Church brother. Why else would they have no need of fearing? The Rapture takes us away before the DOTL falls, heck even the Anti-Christ shows up before the DOTL falls. That is why Paul was so besides himself, as in WHAT.........Did I not tell you these things when I was with you before? 1 Thess. 4 the Rapture of the Church. Now you are fearing you are in God's Wrath? And Paul also told them this in 1 Thess. 1:10 1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. The Holy Ghost is not taken away, that is another misnomer he STOPS BLOCKING the Anti-Christ from coming forth, he does so via the Vessel of the Church, we stop him from coming forth, thus when we DEPART he will then be freed by the Holy Spirit to start up the 70th week events, which lead to Israel repenting and God judging the whole world. I agree the catching away is before the DOTL, just before. And its tie with the coming of our Lord by Paul would point to the fear that the DOTL had come meaning they missed the rapture. We can really only use Paul's response in his letter to estimate exactly what they feared, but I'm on the same page with you there. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I would note that the passage you referenced likewise associates the coming of the Lord with our gathering to Him. Assuming the rapture occurs sometime before the tribulation, whether one holds before the 70th week or just before the midst of the week such that the departure in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the rapture, would you say that before the tribulation is when the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, resurrect the dead in Christ and then call all the bride to Him in the air, or would this be Christ coming before the timing described in the Olivet Discourse after the tribulation, or do you think that Christ comes before the tribulation and then before the wrath begins and then at the end of the antichrists reign at Armageddon? Are there any corroborating passages to indicate multiple arrivals of Christ both before and after the tribulation? In my understanding there is no need to separate the coming of Christ from the DOTL. In fact there are several passages referring to the day of Christ and the day of the Lord Jesus that would indicate the day of Christ being the end of the race we are running. Christ comes with great glory after the signs of the sixth seal after the unparalleled tribulation in Judea and the wrath soon follows All the various passages line up with a single coming of Christ at the time of God's wrath to gather His bride from the earth before that wrath is poured out on the earth because we are not appointed to God's wrath, but salvation in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:12-14 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus. Philippians 1:9-10 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; Philippians 2:14-16 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. If you look at passages for the DOTL, they are depictions of wrath tied to the signs of the sixth seal, shaking the earth, destruction from the Almighty, etc. When you look at references to the day of Christ, they appear to be the end of the Christian struggle, a goal to which we should remain spotless and faithful to. I believe this is the point of the pre-wrath catching away perspective. As Paul and Yeshua state, the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him are the same event. That comes after the tribulation in Judea and before the wrath of God, but not much before because the coming of Christ is the day of the Lord and God's wrath. While the day of Christ is the same time, it is from the Christian perspective and regards the blessed hope, not the sudden destruction for those that dwell on the earth. Quote The 70th week will bring Israel unto repentance, that is what Daniel's 9:24-27 Decree was designed by God to do. But not until we the Church departs (time of the Gentiles = Our SERVICE) Israel never accept this Gentile King as their Messiah, that is also a misapplied passage, John 5:43 is speaking about the Pharisees who rejected Jesus but accepted men who came in their own name during the 67-70 AD Wars, the Pharisees were learned men, they knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast, so they saw the 67-70 AD events as when their "Messianic Leader" would show up, so they put forth a couple of people, as history shows, as the Messiah, so John 5:43 has already been fulfilled, it is not an end time prophesy. I'm not dogmatic about John 5:43 speaking to the future, it was clearly spoken to those in the past. One might ascribe the Jews accepting false messiahs in their day, I just don't limit it to that and believe it could also be taken as a general statement that natural Israel rejected the Messiah who came in His Father's name, but are willing to accept strong men coming in their own names, to include the ultimate incarnation who stands in the temple of God declaring himself to be god. Quote The strong delusion is many things, its got to do with how the earth is turning away from God especially the Western Civilizations, and thus since we are now rejecting God, He will send strong delusions to affirm their lies of Evolution, Atheism, Sexual Deviations etc. etc. If we read Matt. 24:24-28 we can see Jesus says it is impossible to deceive his elect because he FORETELLS them where he's going to be coming from, the Eastern Skies, and says do it look for me in the desert or in a storeroom, then he says he comes in the Eastern Skies, so they can not be deceived. There is clearly deception from the rejection of God's Word to believing cleverly devised fables like macro-evolution over intelligent design. I love the work Stephen C. Meyer and the Discovery Institute have been doing to present the immense complexity of life and the code more complex than any computer code that makes life happen. You would think in this age of computers that people would recognize that if a complex computer program didn't just happen due to random changes over time, but requires a programmer, that the far more complex chemical coding behind DNA and the proteins it creates would have to come from an intelligent source. Quote What gets me is they translated the exact same thing different in the same chapter. At the very end they call it the Evening and the Mornings instead of DAYS....LOL. The Masoretic text in Daniel 8:14 actually uses ereb (evening) boqer (morning) translated as days, which can hide some of the nuance as they point out in the article. Yes an evening and morning equate to a day, but in the context of the daily sacrifice being taken away, there was an evening and morning sacrifice. In Daniel 8:26, the word used for days is yom, meaning day, time period, etc. which is more of what we would consider as day. I thought that distinction was interesting. Quote But reading Daniel 8:23-25 this can only be the Anti-Christ, notice how vs. 25 ends... he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Just like the Rock that smashes the Feet of the Idol/Statue in Dan. 2, a Rock is cut out WITHOUT HANDS, Paul says Jesus will destroy him by the PRESNCE of his coming !! So, the Prince of princes is Jesus, thus Dan. 8 is about the Anti-Christ, not Antiochus. I personally think that verse 23 points back to 22 because it speaks to the splitting of the kingdom into four, which happened when Alexander gave his kingdom to his four generals. This would seem to be pointing to the latter time of the four generals' kingdom. Daniel 8:22-23 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. Verse 25 states without(H657) hand(H3027) he will be broken(H7665). The majority of the translations using H657 are "ends," but no, none, without, besides makes much more sense. Hand is pretty much what it says, but can also be used as strength, power, which could also fit. He will be broken is what it would seem as well, break, destroy, break down. So as I read this looking at the original, it effectively means this person will be destroyed without human intervention. This could certainly be pointing to the future man of sin whom God will destroy at His coming. But I think it's possible that this is also historical and a foreshadow if you will of this future time I would agree with you on. 2 Maccabees 9:4-11; 28-29 Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight, so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, “When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews.” But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him with an incurable and invisible blow. As soon as he stopped speaking, he was seized with a pain in his bowels for which there was no relief and with sharp internal tortures— and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews and giving orders to drive even faster. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. Thus he, who only a little while before had thought in his superhuman arrogance that he could command the waves of the sea and had imagined that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. And so the ungodly man’s body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of the stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought that he could touch the stars of heaven. Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain every moment. So the murderer and blasphemer, having endured the more intense suffering such as he had inflicted on others, came to the end of his life by a most pitiable fate, among the mountains in a strange land. And Philip, one of his courtiers, took his body home; then, fearing the son of Antiochus, he withdrew to Ptolemy Philometor in Egypt. It is a possiblity that the same Antiochus who placed an idol to be worshipped in the temple also was destroyed without hand. As foreshadows go, both could be true one pointing to the other. Quote I have read all the opinions on these things, one end of the spectrum to the other, finally I started just asking God to show me His truths, I now download mostly from one source, besides God wants to show us these things in the end times. Gog and Magog is a side war tbh, something God uses to bring Israel to a point where she once again trusts someone else (E.U.) over God. But I look at everything, so I will take a look see later on. Then explain (probably) why I disagree. I figured you've probably seen a lot of those perspectives before. There's a lot to take in and so little time in the day. Is it just me or do days seem to be getting shorter? Lol Quote Well yes they are sequential in nature (even though the Seals are just a Metaphor for a Closed Scroll) in that Jesus has to allow the Trumps to be blown, then the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, but what I think you missed as per unto my point is the Seals ARE NOT WRATH. They are Prophetic Utterances of what is soon to come. In other words Joel in Joel 2:31 AND the 6th Seal are both describing the Fourth Trump Events that make the Sun and Moon go dark. The Asteroid HITTING in Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath, the Seals are not Wrath. they are Prophetic Utterances of Gods soon to come wrath (Seal #6) AND Jesus also foretells the Anti-Christs actions over the 42 months of his rule in Seals 1-5. I agree the seals aren't wrath. The sixth seal is a herald of the DOTL, but it has not come yet. Assuming a literal view of time though and the fact that the DOTL comes as sudden destruction, I wouldn't be surprised if the wrath starts a mere half hour after the signs of the sixth seal. Quote All these Practices however will be fulfilled in Christ Jesus, thus he will be their blood atonement forever, he will never have known sin (Unleavened Bread) He will always be the First-fruits that defeated Death. He will blow the Trump in Rev. 4:1 that ends the Church Age (actually his voice just reverberates like a Trump). He will still be Israel's Atonement during the 70th week (Feast of Atonement) and Jesus will dwell with Israel for 1000 years. Its given to the Jews so in these end times, Moses/Elijah can point out all these things we are doing unto the Jews, only a million times better, and they will then see the big picture. Agreed, although I think we've established I hold the end of the church age, fulness of the Gentiles, is slightly later than you do. Quote Yes, and sometime when we say things it may seem like a lecture or rebuke, to some people and they get their feelings hurt, but they do not understand us sharpening swords is not offensive, it is how we learn. So, anytime I say something that might seem a little hard, I wish people would see it as just me being truthful, I neve get offended by ideas or discussions. Those who uses to say the Seals, Trumps and Vials are all the same events used to make me laugh inside, I was like yea there are 21 Events. But they were only half wrong, I learned, not from them per se, that we may not know all w think we do, when I saw the Seals were NEVER God's Wrath, only Jesus foretelling of this coming Wrath. That is why they were confused, they sat the 6th Seal as matching the Rev. 8 Fourth Trump well it does, because it is a Prophetic Utterance. Being offended has never gotten me anywhere, just end up consumed in my own anger, usually due to my pride. Many times the more I dwelt on it I just ended up with lingering soul issues that Christ needed to iron out once I was wise enough to let go of my pride. It still wells up sometimes and now I just laugh at myself inside and remind myself how many times I was in the wrong and still let it consume me. God has a broken vessel now that is willing and ready to conform to the image He desires and that takes away any need for pride in myself. Now my focus is on pride in my God and the wonderful things He has done and will do for those that love Him. We all have lots of opportunities to learn from each other, whether it's whole ideas or some part of an idea we hadn't considered before, that's the beauty of debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton57 Posted September 3, 2023 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 8/30/2023 at 4:36 PM, Shilohsfoal said: The son of perdition is revealed when he has become king in Daniel 11:21.,Christ comes and raises the dead in Daniel 12:1-2. Daniel 11:21 21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. The son of perdition gives Israel a host in danuel 11:31 to abolish the daily sacrifice. Daniel 11:31 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. The saints in Israel realize who he is then.The host given to Israel is described as being a beast with two horns like a lamb in revelation 13.It is at this time the saints in Israel are imprisoned and killed for preaching the gospel. Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Daniel 11:33 Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed. During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere. And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come. The son of perdition exalts himself as is his custom in Daniel 11:36 Daniel 11:36 The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. His armed forces stationed in Israel is attacked in Daniel 11:40. Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He responds by destroying and innihilating many in Daniel 11:44 Daniel 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. It is at this time that he uses the abomination of desolation causing great tribulation such as the world has not seen. Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame. And as Paul said ,the Son of perdition is destroyed at Christs coming.The dead are raised in Daniel 12:2 ,and the son of perdition comes to his end in Daniel 11:45 Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And you correct about the falling away.Jesus spoke of it in the gospel. Mathew 24 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. I take it you don't see Daniel 8 and Daniel 11:1-35 as historically pointing to the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes IV? Regarding the AoD, in another post you mentioned that the daily sacrifice is abolished at the beginning of the 1,290 days and the abomination of desolation is placed at the end of the 1,290 days. Daniel 11:31 seems to place both of these events at the same time, you hold that Daniel 11:31 is actually split across the 1,290 days from Daniel 12:11? Given Yeshua pointing to the abomination of desolation as the unparalleled time of trouble, would you hold that Daniel 11:31 event is separate from Daniel 12:1? Regarding Daniel 12:2, given the first resurrection states that the last resurrection is the only time the dead who are not faithful are resurrected to the second death. Revelation 20:4-5 This seems to point to Daniel 12:1-2 as not a single point in time but separated by the 1,000 year reign of Christ, since we know that is when the great white throne judgment is after the last resurrection. Would you see that differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton57 Posted September 3, 2023 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 3, 2023 On 8/31/2023 at 2:26 AM, Diaste said: I don't agree with the dispensationalists and their pretrib replacement theology but they don't have it all wrong. One of the ideas that came up so very long ago is exactly what you mention. There will be a contingent of Jews from Jerusalem in particular, and/or Israel at large, that are protected during the wrath of God. I see that in Zechariah 14: Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city. 3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.a I don't consider these to be the 144k. What the dispensationalists say about this has to do with national, natural, orthodox Jewry in Israel finally calling on the one true God to be their savior. From what I hear, they call on the Lord with one voice, all in agreement, the Lord hears them and rescues them, and the Day of Lord at the end of the age begins. I see nothing in scripture disputing this idea and there are precedents for events just like this notably, the Red Sea crossing. Dispensation gets all kinds of attachments I neither know of or really care to. What I do see in scripture are many places where God is dealing with Israel. Then Israel rejects the Messiah and are blinded and destroyed and disbursed into the nations while the Gospel goes to the Gentiles. Natural Israel remains blinded throughout that time until the fulness of the Gentiles at which point God's focus is on the remnant of Israel whose names are written in the book. Call it dispensation or not, but clearly the concept is there or Israel wouldn't be blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles was completed. And when I say natural Israel, it's purely a necessity to refer to a corporate body of people within space-time. Obviously there have been natural branches who have come to accept Messiah while Israel as a whole remained blinded. And there will be natural branches broken off in unbelief whose names are not written in the book. Spiritual Israel are all Jews and Gentiles outside of space-time who have and will in the future accept Yeshua, we just don't know, being stuck in space-time ourselves, what that body will be, just that it will be. Regarding Zechariah 14, I'm unsure on timing or relation, but perhaps Yeshua standing on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14 is what is meant in Revelation. Revelation 12:14-17 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Perhaps those that flee will have their way made and the "earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood" is a reference to fleeing through the valley of the mountains and those trying to kill the woman are swallowed up somehow in this event. I'm also looking at Joel 2 as a vision of this time of Jacob's trouble in Judea and why spiritual Israel is told to run to the mountains. Quote True. The rapture as popularly known is not in scripture. The gathering of the elect is. The two are comparable in concept but otherwise differ greatly. I also agree with GT followed by Christ's return and the gathering, immediately before wrath falls. Where I'm hesitant is when scripture specifically describes a thing and then doesn't use that same specific language for another thing, event, person, place, or action. In this case the bowls are specifically described as God's wrath where seals and trumps are not. It's kind of the same with the rapture. In the classic rapture proofs of 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 there is no timing in relation the another event outside the description of the events associated with the coming of Jesus and the gathering; Jesus descends, the trump is blown, the shout of the archangel, the dead rise first, etc. None of that is timed around a seal, a trump, the midpoint, the revealing, etc., in those verses. In other scripture we are given timing of the Return of the King and the gathering and it's specified as after GT, after the signs of the sun, moon and stars, and that GT is cut short, then the Lord come and the elect are gathered. That then disputes the validity of the pretrib scenario. Just like wrath is specific to the bowls, but trumps are not called wrath. If one is described as wrath and the other is not, I cannot make the assumption trumps have anything more to do with wrath apart from the 7th trump as a herald. I can respect the hesitation in trying to put things together that aren't explicitly stated. Fortunately a lot of elements of Bible prophecy are not requirements for salvation, but rather clues and insights into God's plans for our future. There's so much we'll all learn as it's coming to pass. Quote Sure. However: 6th Seal 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” 7th Trump The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead and to reward Your servants the prophets, as well as the saints and those who fear Your name, both small and great— and to destroy those who destroy the earth. So unless wrath begins twice, then the 6th seal impending wrath and the 7th trump impending wrath are one and the same. Revelation 6:17 is technically the people of earth's calling this out as the day of God's wrath, but I do believe they are right. From the sixth seal to the seventh seal there's just 1/2 hour of silence in heaven and scripture does say the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night and sudden destruction like the days of Noah and Lot. If the people of earth are recognizing God's wrath then it should be coming in short order to fulfill the statements that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. the same word is used in both verses for is come, but I don't believe this means the wrath comes twice. I think they're just declarative statements that God's wrath is here and happening. It occurs over the last 3 1/2 years approximately so it's not like one day and it's all over. Quote I like to be as literalist as I can be but I'm convinced that 'in the days' is euphemistic for the 'time when the 7th trump sounds' not that it sounds for a prescribed amount of days. I could be wrong. When a trump sounds it's not a single blast, it's some several blasts. I'm good with that, just not for days on end. Yes, there's no way to determine how long it takes for the bowls to pour out, but like birthpangs it seems like the trumpets play out over some time and the fifth trumpet for at least a few months since the sting of the demon locusts last for 5 months. Then the bowls are all poured out in one chapter, one after the other like the intensity is kicked up a notch as the delivery of the completion of God's wrath is commencing. Quote Yes. I understand. Seals and trumps are all plagues. A plague of mice or rabbits isn't God's wrath. I don't think Covid was God's wrath. I think there is a very serious and terrifying plague of deception getting worse by the minute, but I don't think it's God's wrath. 'Filled up' is "teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos)." It's more like the next step in the overall plan, not like the completion of something that came before. It's the plan that has reached completion in it's final phase. To be clear, I don't think the seals are plagues. I do think some selective plagues will be part of God's wrath in the future, such as the first and fifth bowls perhaps. I would agree filled up means it's reached completion with the final phase and once that is done, the wrath of God is finished, but it had a start previous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopixi Seilynam Posted September 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,008 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 307 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/12/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Triton57 said: Looking at all the other passages using H7620, none of them use that context, it's usually weeks or seven and that fits with the context of those passages. Yes, the translation we'll see is 'weeks' or 'sevens'. But 'weeks' actually does not fit with the context of Daniel 9:24, the immediate context is Daniel 9:2-23; Daniel's reading of Jeremiah and his understanding of the 70 year captivity he was in. [Daniel 1:21, 2 Chronicles 36] Also using the word 'captivities' instead of 'weeks' makes much more sense out of the whole passage, and in my opinion therefore shows itself clearly as the correct understanding. What I think has happened is that evil scribes, those of the scribes that had Christ crucified and were also against Paul, have changed much of scripture such that the true understanding is harder to glean. Edited September 3, 2023 by Desopixi Seilynam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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