The Difficult Sayings Of Jesus

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

I have wondered about the collective nature of sin under the law? 

Nu 14:15  Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,

Num 16:21  Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
Nu 16:22  And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Joh 11:50  Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

These are those cut off?
 

This looks like whole topic on its own. THE COLLECTIVE NATURE OF SIN. What do you say?

[TheBlade]

Hi Starise.. offend here means "bait in a trap" like a trap that causes you to stumble into sin. 

How its originally written is "Gehenna" which is not a place of punishment during the present age prior to the resurrection of the dead which is ordinarily called hell but which is properly called Hades yet rather  it equals the lake of fire.  

History, gehenna is taken from the valley of the sons of hinnom on the south side of Jerusalem. Now in the NT days it was a place where fires for trash and rubbish were always burning. Popular Jewish tradition said the Last Judgment would take place there but Jesus used it as a name for the final place of punishment. 

Jesus words obviously are not intended to be taken literally but figuratively. Lol a person can cut of there hand and gouge out there eye and keep sinning. He used deliberate exaggeration. If a wrong desire or action becomes as important as an eye or a right hand that desire or intent to act must be chopped off or cut out.

[Anne2]

18 hours ago, Starise said:

This looks like whole topic on its own. THE COLLECTIVE NATURE OF SIN. What do you say?

I am not sure. 

How to look at what Paul says here?

He was alive once, apart from the law...

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Like this?

Heb 7:9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

When did the commandment come?

*the 8th day circumcision?

When his bar mitvah, jew's call becoming a son of the commandments (age of accountability)?
 

What do you think Paul was saying here?

[Starise]

20 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Hi Starise.. offend here means "bait in a trap" like a trap that causes you to stumble into sin. 

How its originally written is "Gehenna" which is not a place of punishment during the present age prior to the resurrection of the dead which is ordinarily called hell but which is properly called Hades yet rather  it equals the lake of fire.  

History, gehenna is taken from the valley of the sons of hinnom on the south side of Jerusalem. Now in the NT days it was a place where fires for trash and rubbish were always burning. Popular Jewish tradition said the Last Judgment would take place there but Jesus used it as a name for the final place of punishment. 

Jesus words obviously are not intended to be taken literally but figuratively. Lol a person can cut of there hand and gouge out there eye and keep sinning. He used deliberate exaggeration. If a wrong desire or action becomes as important as an eye or a right hand that desire or intent to act must be chopped off or cut out.

How would one loose their soul in a trash dump? I might have misunderstood.

 

 

[JimmyB]

On 8/29/2023 at 6:24 AM, Starise said:

Thanks for these thoughts brother. I see several divisions  how a person might interpret what Jesus said.

-Those who are unsaved, and critical from the get go.

-Those who are unsaved, but desire to figure out what He said.

-Those who are new believers and as such, are only beginning a study of these things.

-Older more mature believers who can still benefit from reading these things again, but have had many of these things revealed to them.

Rather than read all of the parables and sayings of Jesus at once, I have found it easier to take them one at a time. Often they tie together and have similar meanings. And one thing we are all sometimes prone to do- Jumping to conclusions too early. 

I have learned not to always trust bible footnotes because some of them don't tell us the whole story.

Now I've made these investigations maybe sound complicated to some, but really they aren't, and often a saved Spirit filled believer will be shown the meaning right away.Other times it requires some digging, but even that isn't terribly painful if we have the right references. Sometimes a church group discussion is helpful. Even if a person is seen as wrong, it gives us something to further investigate. Most of this is not intentional, but simply incomplete information. 

I am of the opinion that only a born again Christian, one who has received the Holy Spirit, can properly understand the Bible, since it is primarily a spiritual book.  John 16:13-15, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

However, even with the Holy Spirit's guidance we have different interpretations.  That keeps me studying His word and praying for understanding.

That is also the reason that I read primarily modern translations, as the KJV is too vague to be interpreted accurately.  (The one exception to this is the 1599 Geneva Bible because of it's copious sidenotes that give real insight into early Protestant interpretation.)

That said, I believe that anyone can read the Bible and be enlightened by God's word.

P.S. I became a Christian primarily by reading the Bible so that I could argue with a pastor I knew.  I was "born again" in the hospital by believing the Scripture that she read; at that moment I was healed by Jesus.

[Starise]

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I am not sure. 

How to look at what Paul says here?

He was alive once, apart from the law...

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

These are my first impressions of the text, but I will dig deeper.

Verse 8-Without God's law, sin leads to death.. God's law decreed a sacrifice had to be made and that sacrifice was Jesus.

Verse 9-I think Paul was commenting about his pre salvation state, and back before he was old enough to recognize the law. When the commandment, or law came, it pointed out his sin and spiritually he was dead at the time before he had his encounter with God . This is possibly an argument for newborns being saved if they are too young. Without the law there is no sin, and infants are not aware. When we are aware of the law, we are condemned by it.

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Heb 7:9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

In the care of his father. Had not yet left home.

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

When did the commandment come?

*the 8th day circumcision?

When his bar mitvah, jew's call becoming a son of the commandments (age of accountability)?

Let me post the full text.

9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

My verse 11 does not look like your verse 11? 

These passages are related to a CALLING and have nothing to do with salvation or the lack of it. It would be no different than being predestinated as a painter or a housewife. It was a calling.

Notice the past tense in " Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated. 

It is my belief that as it pertained to the CALLING the Lord intended, Esau was not the pick, so God hated him for that application. He already knew both men.This passage talks about an election for a specific purpose.

 

[Starise]

21 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

That is also the reason that I read primarily modern translations, as the KJV is too vague to be interpreted accurately.  (The one exception to this is the 1599 Geneva Bible because of it's copious sidenotes that give real insight into early Protestant interpretation.)

I read your entire post, and agree wholeheartedly.

I wanted to comment on the above quote. I must have 5 different translations of the bible. I was raised using the KJV. Most of them put across the same meanings. A few of the translations, like the RSV which I don't own is maybe 95% ok, but there were a few changes that I didn't believe reflected the intent of the text.

[JimmyB]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I am not sure. 

How to look at what Paul says here?

He was alive once, apart from the law...

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Like this?

Heb 7:9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

When did the commandment come?

*the 8th day circumcision?

When his bar mitvah, jew's call becoming a son of the commandments (age of accountability)?
 

What do you think Paul was saying here?

When Paul wrote Romans 7, he was describing how he dealt with sin prior to being born again.  

Romans 7:14-20, "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells within me.  For I know that the good does not dwell within me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do the good lies close at hand, but not the ability. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells within me."

But he wrote earlier, explaining... "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code." Romans 7:4-6

Here he was writing to Christians who were born again.

The commandment came when God gave the law to Moses.  Paul, writing figuratively, said that prior to that he was "alive" but when sin came, taking advantage of the law, he died (spiritually).

I think that you are making a "salad" by mixing Scripture from various places.  

Bar mitzvah is a ritual that Jewish boys (like myself) that means you can fully participate in the temple services (signified by reading from the torah on that special day).  You are no longer a child!

Part of Judaism, as is clearly expressed in the various genealogies, is that your character is passed to you via your ancestors (as in Hebrews 7:9-10 and the beginning of the Matthew's gospel and numerous places in the Old Testament).  

Melchizedek is a clear exception! “Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he was returning from defeating the kings and blessed him,” and to him Abraham apportioned “one-tenth of everything.” His name, in the first place, means “king of righteousness”; next, he is also king of Salem, that is, “king of peace.” Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life but resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. See how great he is! Even Abraham the patriarch gave him a tenth of the spoils. And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to collect tithes from the people, that is, from their kindred, though these also are descended from Abraham. But this man, who does not belong to their ancestry [!], collected tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had received the promises. Hebrews 7:1-6

There are things in the Bible that cannot be understood by applying normal logic!  Isn't that wonderful?

[Starise]

21 hours ago, JimmyB said:

I am of the opinion that only a born again Christian, one who has received the Holy Spirit, can properly understand the Bible, since it is primarily a spiritual book.  John 16:13-15, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

I would only add that there is a difference between a new believer and a seasoned believer. A newb isn't going to pick up a bible and get all of it right away. I think they will get some of it, enough to get them started. 

When it comes to the unbeliever, they can read the bible and God can reveal things in it to lead them to Him. Would you agree?

I wish all atheists could experience the healing you experienced. They don't believe in a supernatural. You were arguing with a pastor and he prayed and you were healed. You have no idea how much I wish that would happen for someone I know.

[Anne2]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

These are my first impressions of the text, but I will dig deeper.

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

These are my first impressions of the text, but I will dig deeper.

Verse 8-Without God's law, sin leads to death.. God's law decreed a sacrifice had to be made and that sacrifice was Jesus.

First of all, thank you for your response. I see this speaking of covenants plural, I do not think you do. The law of faith, the law of works. Both are Gods law. The difference is in what each operates on. And purpose.

It is here we see things differently, but your comments have brought somethings also to consider.

Without God's law, sin is dead. Does your scripture say something different? Or rather Before the law came. Which law was by moses.

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

Verse 9-I think Paul was commenting about his pre salvation state, and back before he was old enough to recognize the law.

I think Paul is probably speaking about the circumcision. Somewhat concerning the things you mention later on.... Which yes, pre salvation in Jesus, But alive none the less. this comes to mind

Mt 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mr 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Lu 20:38  For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

When the commandment, or law came, it pointed out his sin and spiritually he was dead at the time before he had his encounter with God .

I think this is also becoming a son of the commandments. The age of accountability for the circumcision under the law of Moses. Up until that point it is his Father which kept the covenant of circumcision for him. Made a son of promise. As you say below.

 

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

This is possibly an argument for newborns being saved if they are too young. Without the law there is no sin, and infants are not aware. When we are aware of the law, we are condemned by it.

 Newborns, are circumcised by their fathers. The sign and seal of children of promise.

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

In the care of his father. Had not yet left home.

Not sure what this means...

But your comments on Romans 9 apply to alot of what is in Romans 7.

On 8/31/2023 at 11:29 AM, Starise said:

Let me post the full text.

9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

Yes, back to before the law of Moses and calling.

The calling 

Ge 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11:18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

And that calling is not abolished by the law

Ga 3:17  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Abraham dies Genesis 15

15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

 in Isaac Genesis 17 the covenant of circumcision is established with an oath in Isaac.
 

Heb 11: 17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
 

Heb 6:17  Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: