The Difficult Sayings Of Jesus

[garee]

3 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Where is this found in scripture?

We have the covenants which the women are allegories?

Paul calls it hearing the law.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 

 

Thanks for the reply. . 

You must of missed it (Jerimiah 44: 15-19 ) I posted it as law of the fathers. . . laws  of dying mankind . The same kind Saul  followed after before his conversion    Murdering the misconved competition looking to the outward flesh of men and not the inward .Murdering torturing others .Buried them under the pagan foundation out of sight out of mind   having no faith as it is written that could please God.

Acts 22:3-5 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, (sinful men) and was (falsely) zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

In Acts 24  again under a law of the fathers they pursued Pau and deaired to jusge him acording to thier fleshy standard 

Acts 24:5-6 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.

Put they could not prove  and called the word of god heresy so that they could keep their own kind of law worshipping a legion of fathers  

Acts 24:1314  Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:  (sola scriptura) 

They worshiped the fathers (legion) not after the one manner our father singular  (Mathew 6)

Teaching us how to walk by faith the unseen things of God  not by sight after a multitude of fathers seen  

 l 

[Starise]

Folks, can we get back to the main topic?

The Difficult Sayings Of Jesus

[Know Jah]

Yes, Jesus often spoke in illustrations or parables. like the one about Lazarus and the rich man. Many take that literal

[Starise]

22 minutes ago, Know Jah said:

Yes, Jesus often spoke in illustrations or parables. like the one about Lazarus and the rich man. Many take that literal

You know, I went back and forth with this one being literal or not, and my last conclusion is that it's a parable that reflects lots of realities. Hell and torment for the lost is real. God's place for believers is real.

What doesn't seem real

- Communication from Hades to where Abraham was.

-The ability for those in hades to see others in paradise

Let's take a look. I'll underline the things that I think make it a parable. This seems to be a parable that reflects the stark contratst between the saved and the unsaved.

There is some issue in understanding the message. Rich people don't go to hell because they are rich. More likely the rich man put all of his attention away from God and into material things while he was alive. Gave no thoughts to God or to following him.

The unsaid implications to Lazarus were, that he must have been a follower of God, even though he was impoverished, because poor people don't automatically go to heaven either.

Luke 16:19-31

New International Version

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

[Marathoner]

One of the most important things to glean from that parable is expressed in the last sentence. 

Earlier in the chapter, we read the following:

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were ridiculing Him. And He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the sight of people, but God knows your hearts; because that which is highly esteemed among people is detestable in the sight of God." (Luke 16:14-15 NASB)

The rich man is a lover of money like the Pharisees were. Naturally, not all rich men are lovers of money but, in the context of the parable, the rich man is representative of the Pharisees who served wealth (which ties into "you cannot serve two masters" as it appears earlier in that chapter). Lazarus represents the poor, the needy, and all of those whom the Pharisees treated poorly. 

The Pharisees possessed the scriptures (Moses and the Prophets), and they did not believe our Lord in spite of the miracles He performed. They wouldn't believe even after He rose from the dead. 

It's important to keep in mind that "the Pharisees" clearly doesn't refer to all of the Pharisees, for we know that one of the Pharisees --- Nicodemus --- was meeting with the Lord secretly. The book of Acts also informs us that a number of Pharisees believed our Lord. 

[Mike Mclees]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Starise said:

To a new believer or an unbeliever, some of the statements Jesus made can be reason to scratch our heads wondering what He actually was trying to put across, and it's no secret that a lot of what He said was intentionally cryptic..

I remember the first time I read the passage about Jesus where He stated we should pluck our eye out or cut off our hand if it causes us to sin, for it is better to lose an eye or hand than go to hell. Whaaaaaaat??????

I immediately went to the visual mental picture and the thought of it turned me off.

Some people will read this passage and say, He's lost it. This Jesus character is just weird. Quite honestly, He could have appeared to be a little unusual. Difficult I suppose to be God in human form and not be different.He was also magnetic to those who He called, and in other circles at home he was just an average guy. Mainly because I don't believe He did most of His miracles or started teaching until Later. If you had been in His presence and seen Him Heal or feed the 5000 or speak, there would likely be no question.

The statement I mentioned that Jesus said, well I have pondered that one a lot since. If one of us was caught up in a serious sin that involved the eyes, and if we could be in hell for even 30 minutes, then I believe the statement He made would begin to make some sense. Most tend to underestimate our sins in a very big way. Jesus was making a point for how serious sin and hell is. From that perspective it makes sense to me.

Another statement of Jesus  the disciples wondered about was when He said the temple would be destroyed and He would raise it in three days.

Jesus was referring to his body and rising from the dead three days after His death by crucifixion.

And then we have the parables Jesus taught where He admitted that what he was saying was intentionally kept from those who were not intended to 'get' the message.

 

In John 6 Jesus addressed the crowds that followed Him after the feeding of the five thousand. Staring at verse 53 through 66 saying , " 

⁵³ Then Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.

⁵⁴ Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day.

⁵⁵ For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.

⁵⁶ He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood dwelleth in Me, and I in him.

⁵⁷ As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father, so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me.

⁵⁸ This is that Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate manna and are dead; he that eateth of this Bread shall live for ever.”

⁵⁹ These things said He in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

The general public and many in the church  being fleshly or carnal minded cannot perceive or understand these difficult sayings. They hear but cannot hear and they see with their eyes but cannot see. We must be born again of the spirit. Jesus said  to the disciples verse 63,

"It is the spirit that quickens(makes one alive) the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

 

 

 

[Marathoner]

I believe that the parables our Lord spoke in the Gospels were directed at the Pharisees, Sadducees, lawyers, and scribes who schemed against Him and treated the needy poorly. I'm of the opinion that the following passage from my favorite chapter of Proverbs addresses those unfaithful servants who were pure in their own eyes. 

There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
(Proverbs 30:11-14 KJV)

I prefer the KJV rendition the best. The relation between devouring the poor from the earth and the conduct of the rich man in the parable stands out. 

The Lord said this about the Pharisees:

Now as the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it demands a sign, and so no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. (Luke 11:29-30 NASB)

[Anne2]

43 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

I believe that the parables our Lord spoke in the Gospels were directed at the Pharisees, Sadducees, lawyers, and scribes who schemed against Him and treated the needy poorly. I'm of the opinion that the following passage from my favorite chapter of Proverbs addresses those unfaithful servants who were pure in their own eyes. 

There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
(Proverbs 30:11-14 KJV)

I prefer the KJV rendition the best. The relation between devouring the poor from the earth and the conduct of the rich man in the parable stands out. 

The Lord said this about the Pharisees:

Now as the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it demands a sign, and so no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. (Luke 11:29-30 NASB)

Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Ac 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

There was wrath coming...

[Starise]

51 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

In John 6 Jesus addressed the crowds that followed Him after the feeding of the five thousand. Staring at verse 53 through 66 saying , " 

⁵³ Then Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.

⁵⁴ Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day.

⁵⁵ For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.

⁵⁶ He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood dwelleth in Me, and I in him.

⁵⁷ As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father, so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me.

⁵⁸ This is that Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate manna and are dead; he that eateth of this Bread shall live for ever.”

⁵⁹ These things said He in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

The general public and many in the church  being fleshly or carnal minded cannot perceive or understand these difficult sayings. They hear but cannot hear and they see with their eyes but cannot see. We must be born again of the spirit. Jesus said  to the disciples verse 63,

"It is the spirit that quickens(makes one alive) the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

 

 

 

This truly falls into the category of strange if taken literally.  When Jesus was at the last supper, it might have made a little more sense to the disciples. " This is my blood, take and drink", This is my body, take and eat"

Rephrase- Accept my sacrifice, my body sacrificed for you, for the remission of sins. Then He went to the cross and made it all too apparent what he meant.

Some Christian denominations observe the Lord's table in remembrance of Him. They hand out the wine and the bread to observe the ritual. The reason I'm bringing this up is to flag an inaccurate teaching that says these elements are literally the blood and body of Christ. Most protestant churches see this as only symbolic. Really going out on a pole otherwise.

[Still Alive]

I've said for decades that all topics are binary - black and white. The problem is when we are not focused on the key issue that they become gray. So I believe that if something is "gray", it means I need to break it down further into its black and white components. Just like the gray areas in old black and white photos in newspapers. They are really made up of black and white once you zoom in.

And to add to that, often we have a hard time with the sayings of Jesus as well as many other authors within that library of books called "the Bible" because we filter them through our own biases that may or may not be accurate. 

Further, we often don't look at them from the original text/language and how someone alive at the time would have interpreted them.

So, at the end of the day, it's not that his words are difficult. Rather, it is how we interpret them that makes it hard. e.g. I don't think he was saying we needed to literally eat him as we would a hot dog. And I think he clarified nicely before he was sacrificed.