The 7th Trump is the Last Trump

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I'm the person who said "then".Your quoting me.The bible says 

Some translations use the word “then” but even with KJV it says..” And” the seventh angel sounded.. it is just adding another event that happened when the two prophets rose.. Like in Daniel it says “ At that time” that the man of sin  came his end and then adds others events by saying AND at that time Michael will stand up AND there will be a time of trouble  AND many that sleep in the dust shall awake..all meaning other events that happened “At that time” 

So saying “ And” the seventh angels sounded does not mean it happened at another time it just means at the time the prophets rose the seventh angel sounded.. it could be said in reverse and mean the same thing the seventh angel sounded AND the two prophets rose..

The criteria is that all are changed FIRST and then the dead rise up into heaven .. so the point when it says the dead will be raised incorruptible means the change to immortality happens at the point of resurrection and after the change to immortality the dead then rise, as it took place with the two prophets..

The other thing is when this change happens it happens to all- meaning the two prophets would not be changed at a different time than everyone else meaning at the last trumpet as no change happens to anyone in isolation from the others as he said We shall ALL be changed in a moment.. not some changed in a moment and some others changed at another moment

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Some translations use the word “then” but even with KJV it says..” And” the seventh angel sounded.. it is just adding another event that happened when the two prophets rose.. Like in Daniel it says “ At that time” that the man of sin  came his end and then adds others events by saying AND at that time Michael will stand up AND there will be a time of trouble  AND many that sleep in the dust shall awake..all meaning other events that happened “At that time” 

So saying “ And” the seventh angels sounded does not mean it happened at another time it just means at the time the prophets rose the seventh angel sounded.. it could be said in reverse and mean the same thing the seventh angel sounded AND the two prophets rose..

The criteria is that all are changed FIRST and then the dead rise up into heaven .. so the point when it says the dead will be raised incorruptible means the change to immortality happens at the point of resurrection and after the change to immortality the dead then rise, as it took place with the two prophets..

The other thing is when this change happens it happens to all- meaning the two prophets would not be changed at a different time than everyone else meaning at the last trumpet as no change happens to anyone in isolation from the others as he said We shall ALL be changed in a moment.. not some changed in a moment and some others changed at another moment

I never said the two witnesses are changed nor does scripture.I simply pointed out what scripture shows.They are taken up in that cloud before the seventh trump is sounded.This verse is between the time they are taken away in the cloud and the seventh Trump is sounded.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

And there is nothing that says they have been changed other than they are alive before proceeding into that big ole hot cloud.

 

 

 

 

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

No mention of 'church' in the cited passages. I see John going up, I see elders. No vast congregation here.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:44 AM, Revelation Man said:

Again, the Book of Revelation (BoR) is a vast depository library  of sorts of Codes, Metaphors and Symbolism, so to say you don't see something of course means very little in a book chock full of Codes, Symbols and Metaphors. The thing is you know this just as well as I do.

The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits simply means god sees all and is omnipotent. 

The 7 Beast and 10 Kings men's God's Divine Complete Judgment and the 10 is referring to Complete Europe. 

The 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps and both contain God's Complete Devine Wrath in full.

The 144,000 is a CODE for ALL Israel who repens as in 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10

The Woman is a code for Israel (Gen. 37:9)

The Four Horses can be seen in Zech. ch. 6

Rev. 17 can be seen in Daniel 5. 

The Euphrates River drying up is a code for God stopping his Plagues for a brief time period to allow the Gathering unto Armageddon, no one is coming to the "PARTY" with Plagues falling. God thus encodes it with a metaphor. 

The 7 Stars are the 7 Angels or Messengers to the 7 Churches, I think its the Messengers or Preachers. Thus God directs it unto them.

In Rev. 2:10 Smyrna are told that they will be in tribulation 10 days (Complete Church Age) and those who are "Faithfull unto Death" will receive a Crown of life eternal Well, those 24 Elders (see 1 Chronicle 24 the 24 Orders of the Priesthood) would have on CROWNS of Gold. So, this is simply the Coded, Metaphoric Symbolism of God. In Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 those Redeemed are called Kings and Priests !! Which is why the 24 Elders was used. 

In Rev. 3:5 we see that Jesus tells the church of Sardis that he that OVERCOMES will be clothed in White Robes/Raiment, thus this symbolizes the White Linen we get as we marry the Lamb in Rev. 19, how ca you have a Marriage to the Lamb without ALL the participants? Jesus clearly stated once the call goes out the door to the wedding will be SHUT UP TIGHT on everyone else. So, those with White Robes are the Church in Heaven, raptured Pre Trib just after the Church Age which Rev. 2 and 3 Symbolizes, this happens OF COURSE in Rev. 4:1. 

Then lastly, in Rev. 3:21 God is telling the Laodiceans he that OVERCOMES will sit at his Throne and of course we see this at Rev. 4:4 don't we? Meanwhile you are looking for God to use Israel and the Church in the book of Revelation, but God understood using either would endanger His Churches Mission Call.  Saying Israel would one day rule for 1000 years would have been a treasonous letter if the Romans had found it. Saying the World was going to be Judged and set on Fire would have also been seen as treason because Rome saw themselves a the WORLD LEADERS, but saying Babylon was only going to make them laugh at those foolish Christians, but God is no fool, He just knew how to CODE stuff to get around all of these perils. So, you not seeing the words Church nor Israel then trying to say its not there is in truth just me not buying those facts brother, you understand these codes as well as I do sir. Come on. 

So, you want to agree now these are the OVERCOMERS from the Church Age who Marry the Lamb in Rev. 19 and thus get their White Robes/White Linen?

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And that Rev. 4:1 is Jesus calling us home and that is why His VOICE is described by John as a TRUMPET because he knows this is the Last Trump.

Lets just admit the BoR is chock full of Code, Metaphors and Symbolism. So, you saying you do not see the Church is just you being coy at best.

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's logically fallacious to conclude only those who are promised crowns can wear crowns and that equates to only one specific group wearing crowns.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:44 AM, Revelation Man said:

Again, a logic put forth by you alone, I understand the Church who are Raptured Pre Trib will be joined by the Jewish Saints and those Tribulation Saints who came unto Christ after the 70th week started, but thus they can't be seen in Revelation 4:4 because the tribulation converts do not make the Wedding call, and Israel are married unto God the Father already. So, neither one is nor can be shown in Rev. 4:4 but the Pre Trib Raptured Church are indeed shown.

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

In any case, equating the elders with the congregation just doesn't pan out. 

On 9/13/2023 at 9:44 AM, Revelation Man said:

Those Men are REDEEMED, you ant get past that, why fight the facts brother?

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Gosh no.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:44 AM, Revelation Man said:

PLAIN READING OF THE FACTS. 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then perhaps you should desist.

I will never stop preaching TRUTH. 

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

And I think not. The contrast is made by Paul excising the assembly of Mt. Sinai transplanting it with the true assembly in Christ, as your blog states. 

"Excising." Never used the word or the thought. "Comparing" would be a more accurate word. Comparing the two great worldwide judgments of God when He visibly manifest Himself to the world.

Edited September 14, 2023 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"Excising." Never used the word or the thought. "Comparing" would be a more accurate word. Comparing the two great worldwide judgments of God when He visibly manifest Himself to the world.

So I went back and checked the Hebrews 12 reference. Did you mean Galatians 4?

Where Paul teaches Sinai is bondage and Jerusalem above is freedom?

Paul is quite critical of the Galatians behavior and desire to remain under the law.

Paul removes this, hopefully, as working concept, excising it from doctrine and transplanting the unworkable function with a new and vibrant truth of the freedom from above. 

I don't even see the judgement you're referencing in Hebrews 12. 

What did I miss?

 

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, the Book of Revelation (BoR) is a vast depository library  of sorts of Codes, Metaphors and Symbolism, so to say you don't see something of course means very little in a book chock full of Codes, Symbols and Metaphors. The thing is you know this just as well as I do.

Well, isn't that convenient?

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits simply means god sees all and is omnipotent. 

The 7 Beast and 10 Kings men's God's Divine Complete Judgment and the 10 is referring to Complete Europe. 

The 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps and both contain God's Complete Devine Wrath in full.

The 144,000 is a CODE for ALL Israel who repens as in 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10

The Woman is a code for Israel (Gen. 37:9)

The Four Horses can be seen in Zech. ch. 6

Rev. 17 can be seen in Daniel 5. 

The Euphrates River drying up is a code for God stopping his Plagues for a brief time period to allow the Gathering unto Armageddon, no one is coming to the "PARTY" with Plagues falling. God thus encodes it with a metaphor. 

Oh sure. And you alone have the codex, key, primer?

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 7 Stars are the 7 Angels or Messengers to the 7 Churches, I think its the Messengers or Preachers. Thus God directs it unto them.

In Rev. 2:10 Smyrna are told that they will be in tribulation 10 days (Complete Church Age) and those who are "Faithfull unto Death" will receive a Crown of life eternal Well, those 24 Elders (see 1 Chronicle 24 the 24 Orders of the Priesthood) would have on CROWNS of Gold. So, this is simply the Coded, Metaphoric Symbolism of God. In Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 those Redeemed are called Kings and Priests !! Which is why the 24 Elders was used. 

Unwarranted conflation. Category errors are rife in eschatological prophetic interpretation. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

In Rev. 3:5 we see that Jesus tells the church of Sardis that he that OVERCOMES will be clothed in White Robes/Raiment, thus this symbolizes the White Linen we get as we marry the Lamb in Rev. 19, how ca you have a Marriage to the Lamb without ALL the participants? Jesus clearly stated once the call goes out the door to the wedding will be SHUT UP TIGHT on everyone else. So, those with White Robes are the Church in Heaven, raptured Pre Trib just after the Church Age which Rev. 2 and 3 Symbolizes, this happens OF COURSE in Rev. 4:1. 

Well, the only bride I see in all scripture concerning Jesus getting married is as follows:

First the angel introduces the concept of the bride;

"Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”"

It's indisputable the angel is going to show to John the bride of Christ, the wife of the Lamb, that Jesus is either going to marry, or is about to wed. Then we see;

"the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11shining with the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious jewel, like a jasper, as clear as crystal."

Feel free to deny this. I see no where in scripture where there is any other bride of Christ and the Lamb so clearly depicted as in Rev 21. 

If you have some evidence I'd like to see it.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Then lastly, in Rev. 3:21 God is telling the Laodiceans he that OVERCOMES will sit at his Throne and of course we see this at Rev. 4:4 don't we?

No. We see elders, not the 'church'

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Meanwhile you are looking for God to use Israel and the Church in the book of Revelation, but God understood using either would endanger His Churches Mission Call.  Saying Israel would one day rule for 1000 years would have been a treasonous letter if the Romans had found it. Saying the World was going to be Judged and set on Fire would have also been seen as treason because Rome saw themselves a the WORLD LEADERS, but saying Babylon was only going to make them laugh at those foolish Christians, but God is no fool, He just knew how to CODE stuff to get around all of these perils. So, you not seeing the words Church nor Israel then trying to say its not there is in truth just me not buying those facts brother, you understand these codes as well as I do sir. Come on. 

I don't understand the mind of God at all. I only understand what He has said about Himself, His nature and His character, and what he says He is going to do or has done. That doesn't give me any access to what He is thinking when He says He will do this or that, beyond the fact He will do as He says. 

I have heard many people say they know God's intent and why He does what he does in a deeper sense than mere written words. I feel that's a dubious claim, or maybe I just don't have the maturity or I'm not smart enough. 

For may part, I have to get an interview to explore His mind. So far that has not been granted. But you go.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, you want to agree now these are the OVERCOMERS from the Church Age who Marry the Lamb in Rev. 19 and thus get their White Robes/White Linen?

Not even in principle.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And that Rev. 4:1 is Jesus calling us home and that is why His VOICE is described by John as a TRUMPET because he knows this is the Last Trump.

Simile. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Lets just admit the BoR is chock full of Code, Metaphors and Symbolism. So, you saying you do not see the Church is just you being coy at best.

I see the congregation. I don't see the modern definition of the Christian cult church so popular these days. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Those Men are REDEEMED, you ant get past that, why fight the facts brother?

That is not what the song is saying. It's a misreading akin to the misreading of Rev 1:1-3. False prophets use Rev 1:1-3 to say it's already come to pass or that Rev 1:1-3 is false. Neither is true. Neither is conflating the elders with the redeemed congregation accurate or even proper.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Diaste

[transmogrified]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:59 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

And there is nothing that says they have been changed other than they are alive before proceeding into that big ole hot cloud.

The dead in Christ will rise first before the living but of course the dead in Christ does not mean PART of the dead in Christ will rise first and then the other part of the dead in Christ will rise first later..NO all the dead in Christ rise first at the last trumpet.. not some of the dead in Christ before the last trumpet and the others who are dead in Christ at the last trumpetNO.. Those that are Christs AT HIS COMING is ALL the saints and not part of the saints BEFORE his coming and the rest of the saints at his coming.. Paul says ALL will be changed or given immortality at the same time BEFORE anyone is going to rise..s there is no resurrection of ANYONE to corruptible bodies.. it says the trumpet will sound and THE dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE- meaning NOT in corruptible bodies…The two prophets WILL NOT violate what Paul said- Absolutely positively  no way - When he said all he meant all

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The dead in Christ will rise first before the living but of course the dead in Christ does not mean PART of the dead in Christ will rise first and then the other part of the dead in Christ will rise first later..NO all the dead in Christ rise first at the last trumpet.. not some of the dead in Christ before the last trumpet and the others who are dead in Christ at the last trumpetNO.. Those that are Christs AT HIS COMING is ALL the saints and not part of the saints BEFORE his coming and the rest of the saints at his coming.. Paul says ALL will be changed or given immortality at the same time BEFORE anyone is going to rise..s there is no resurrection of ANYONE to corruptible bodies.. it says the trumpet will sound and THE dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE- meaning NOT in corruptible bodies…The two prophets WILL NOT violate what Paul said- Absolutely positively  no way - When he said all he meant all

Well,according to the text,they have as already risen and ascended up into heaven before the last trump sounds.

I'm just going by what is written.If you want to say John wrote it down  backward then say it.

 

Here it is again.

 

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 

I know I wouldnt want to be in their shoes either way.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

The two prophets die in the Lord .. so they are part of the dead in Christ…

All will be given immortality or changed at the same time…

By separating their resurrection and ascension from the others you create two raptures, two resurrections at two different times.. This is no different than pre trib.. in that both violate the premise Paul put forth.. 

You can read “And” in the context of this is an additional event that happened when the prophets rose and be in agreement with what Paul said, or you can read it as two separate resurrections, two raptures, and an ascension in corruptible bodies that does not agree with Paul because he said the dead will rise incorruptible, ..

    The word “and” is used in a cumulative sense as, such as when the Lord descends from heaven… He descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.. just because these are separated out as distinct things that happen when he comes does not mean they are not all happening on the same day, at the same time..

  like when it says “ and the same hour there was a great earthquake” then it adds “ and the seventh angel sounded” 

The phrase about the woes is a statement about what is to come not an intervening event that would place their resurrection apart from the last trump.

It is the pre trib mentality that their understanding of events takes precedence over what Paul said that leads people astray.. which means they have to make concessions that all doesn’t mean all or the all he is referring to here is not the the all over here …

nNo.. Paul is the wise master builder and the revelation and understanding we have must agree with what he said or we go astray in our own “wisdom”

  The scriptures are not against other scriptures.. John is not against Paul, Paul is not against John.. they are both saying the same thing..

    

   

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

23 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The two prophets die in the Lord .. so they are part of the dead in Christ…

All will be given immortality or changed at the same time…

By separating their resurrection and ascension from the others you create two raptures, two resurrections at two different times.. This is no different than pre trib.. in that both violate the premise Paul put forth.. 

You can read “And” in the context of this is an additional event that happened when the prophets rose and be in agreement with what Paul said, or you can read it as two separate resurrections, two raptures, and an ascension in corruptible bodies that does not agree with Paul because he said the dead will rise incorruptible, ..

    The word “and” is used in a cumulative sense as, such as when the Lord descends from heaven… He descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.. just because these are separated out as distinct things that happen when he comes does not mean they are not all happening on the same day, at the same time..

  like when it says “ and the same hour there was a great earthquake” then it adds “ and the seventh angel sounded” 

The phrase about the woes is a statement about what is to come not an intervening event that would place their resurrection apart from the last trump.

It is the pre trib mentality that their understanding of events takes precedence over what Paul said that leads people astray.. which means they have to make concessions that all doesn’t mean all or the all he is referring to here is not the the all over here …

nNo.. Paul is the wise master builder and the revelation and understanding we have must agree with what he said or we go astray in our own “wisdom”

  The scriptures are not against other scriptures.. John is not against Paul, Paul is not against John.. they are both saying the same thing..

    

   

 

 

There is no pre trib mentality that puts the two witnesses of Jesus before the seventh Trump blows.

It is the scripture itself that puts the two witnesses ascending into heaven before the last trump.The two witnesses are removed from the kingdom before the kingdom becomes Christs at the seventh Trump.Its like the weeds being gathered before the wheat.You can't change what is written because it doesn't fit your view.

First the weeds are gathered in bundles to be burned,then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

Your probably just thrown off by the fact that the two christians who do everything Jesus commanded them not to do and do none of what he commands go up in smoke.

 

Revelation 11

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Shilohsfoal