A Concern for Applying the Bible to the Natural Sciences

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Italy is in Europe.  Go take a look at a map. ...

The Indians first wrote out fractions as actual numbers rather than ratios, about 500 AD.

I see.  Your problem is comprehension.  "Fibonacci introduced the concept of fractions to Italy in 1202AD, but fractions weren't used in Europe before Simon Stevin introduced then in 1585 AD..."  You think that by reading that the CONCEPT of fractions was introduced in Italy but that the USE of fractions didn't become common in Europe until 1585 AD that the person writing the article didn't understand geography?  THAT is what you got out of that post??  What does introducing a concept have to do with the practical application?  Further, what does that have to do with geography?

I read the same article.  What does the actions of an Indian in 500AD have to do with Hebrew text dated prior to 550 BC???  Should we reject the Gospels entirely because the writers at the time didn't reference air travel?  Why not just admit that you don't believe anything in the Bible and stop pretending?   Seriously, expecting ancient texts to use mathematical formulas that were created 1,600 years later makes no sense whatever.

 

[Tristen]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:51 PM, Scott Free said:

That is exactly what flat Earth Christians and church leaders of the Middle Ages said

The claim that Christians typically, historically thought the Earth was flat is a secular myth. Civilization was well-aware that the Earth was round centuries before Christ.

This myth began in 1828 - with the fictional publication of "A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus" by Washington Irving. In this account, it was untruthfully claimed that Christians tried to stop the voyage of Columbus for fear he would sale off the edge of the flat Earth.

Apparently, there were also two obscure Christian clerics who argued that the Earth was flat. You'll have to ask an atheist for their names - as atheists like to use these two as evidence - pretending this was the typical Christian view. However, there are many thousands of other historical Christian references to the shape of the Earth (including images) - all demonstrating that learned Christians have always been aware that the Earth is round.

The modern flat-earth movement has recent origins and is not a Christian entity (though there are Christians involved).

 

 

[Tristen]

On 2/13/2024 at 4:31 PM, Scott Free said:

My point throughout the debate is consistent, "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!" or "For our gifts of knowledge and of inspired messages are only partial." I Corinthians 13:9. Yes, Christian-know-it-allism is contrary the humility of the Spirit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. I know some things, but I also recognize and accept my ignorance is greater

*I said the world views Creationist as always angry.

*The phrase with "know everything" was generalized including myself.

*Falling down a rabbit hole of endless futile argument is an unfruitful waist of time. Our individual belief systems are not the real issue. It has no affect on our salvation, Christ Body relationship or the Gospel. There is a more pressing issue of the Spirit that is being addressed. Humility is the focus, because, I know the discipline of the Fathers loving hand in this matter all too well.

Thank you, for your input. I need improvement and truly appreciate it. Will pray about it.

You like to insinuate that anyone who holds an opinion different to yours is being dogmatic and intractable – but in applying this reasoning, you have ironically rendered yourself unteachable – in that, anyone can now dismiss any uncomfortable information (including Biblical truth) on the basis that our knowledge is limited. By this rationale, you therefore make provision for yourself to invalidate any belief that is contrary to your position – while at the same time implying those with differing opinions to you are the ones being arrogant.

A person can have a valid, well thought-out, well researched doctrinal position based on rational arguments and sound hermeneutics – in which they have every reasonable right to be confident.

Your Argument from Ignorance (i.e. a technical logic fallacy) is therefore nothing more than specious posturing. It sounds humble on the surface – but when properly examined, is, in-actuality, the height of arrogance. Every truth contained in the Bible can now be invalidated if your spurious reasoning is applied more broadly. After all, the Bible itself tells us that our knowledge is limited. So how can anyone be sure about anything?

Is Jesus the only way to God? Well – the Bible says so literally, but maybe that was just God’s poetic way of speaking to an ancient people who couldn’t comprehend the truth. Remember, we only have limited knowledge (as the Bible itself tells us).

Was Jesus born of a virgin? Well – that is what the Bible plainly claims, but maybe that is just God’s way of poetically communicating truth to those ancients who were incapable of grasping the real truth if it was stated explicitly. Remember, we only have finite knowledge (as the Bible itself tells us).

Is Jesus the Son of God Who sacrificed Himself to pay the price for our sins? Well – that is what the Bible teaches us if we take scripture at its word, but maybe that was just God’s poetic way of speaking to an ancient, and therefore ignorant, people. Remember, none of us knows everything (as the Bible itself tells us).

Was Jesus resurrected from the dead? Well – that is a fundamental teaching of Christian scripture, but maybe that was just God’s poetic way of conversing with an ancient people who would have had difficulty coming to terms with what really happened. Remember, we only have a partial picture of reality (as the Bible itself tells us).

Did God create the heavens and earth (including all life) in six days before resting on the seventh? Well – that is the account of history as stated in Genesis, but maybe that was just God’s poetic way of speaking to a primitive ancient people who lacked the capacity to understand true history. Remember, we only currently have access to limited knowledge (as the Bible itself tells us).

 

[Tristen]

21 hours ago, teddyv said:

The Bible directly states that pi is 3. It's right there in the instructions for the Sea. It's about as prose as language gets. Since it was given a diameter, even if fractions were unknown, the circumference should be 31 cubits - that's an integer, not a fraction.

Ummm, "pi" is "literally" "3". That is, the number "3" is a mathematically valid rendering of "pi". 

Now, "3" is not a very precise rendering of "pi".

- Since "pi" is an infinite iteration, whenever using "pi", one has to select the level of precision to use for the specific purpose (i.e. where to round off the decimal point). If we round "pi" to the nearest whole integer, "pi" is "3" - unequivocally.

The Bible is therefore "literally" correct if it claims "pi" to be "3".

[Sparks]

22 hours ago, teddyv said:

The Bible directly states that pi is 3. It's right there in the instructions for the Sea. It's about as prose as language gets. Since it was given a diameter, even if fractions were unknown, the circumference should be 31 cubits - that's an integer, not a fraction. 

The point is, you don't read the Bible literal like you claim to do (and demand everyone else should), or you make allowances for all sorts of things.

No, you read as a modern 20th-21st century person does.

You might want to look into Babylonian Arithmetic Methods which were as precision as the math we use today.  Look up The Antikythera mechanism which is basically an ancient hand-cranked computer that tracked the movement of planets in our solar system.  It was thought to be ancient Greek, but it has cuneiform writing on it indicating it is much older.  Look at the gears, and modern replica.

Not everyone back then was a sheep herder.

 

[Scott Free]

1 hour ago, Tristen said:

The claim that Christians typically, historically thought the Earth was flat is a secular myth. Civilization was well-aware that the Earth was round centuries before Christ.

I think the idea of the Earth being round or orbiting the Sun was part of a larger mindset that sometimes clashed with the ignorance inherent in government. Aristotle, Socrates and Galileo were all punished for offending the state.

Edited February 16, 2024 by Scott Free

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Tristen said:

The Bible is therefore "literally" correct if it claims "pi" to be "3".

I think that this was the case in the cited verse.    Lacking a way to express greater precision, the person writing the text put in numbers that amounted to a ratio of 3.   If he had written it to be 3.14, he would have been only slightly less wrong.   That's the point of irrational numbers.

This illustrates the foolishness of getting caught up in incidental details, while missing the message God is actually giving us.   Interestingly, Carl Sagan, at the end of the Novel Contact,  turns this error on it's head when the protagonist discovers (at the suggestion of one of the aliens contacting Earth) that there is evidence for God deep within the digits of pi.

[Scott Free]

1 hour ago, Tristen said:

but in applying this reasoning, you have ironically rendered yourself unteachable

We are all as little children. When we claim to definitively understand the ways of the adult world it sounds a little silly. To say God is not talking down to us in our ignorance shows a lack of self-awareness.

Edited February 16, 2024 by Scott Free

[Scott Free]

55 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Not everyone back then was a sheep herder.

Funny thing about science. They do not have to comprehend the reality of what they are measuring. The math just needs to predict the future. Gravity, time, quantum physics and electromagnetism are prime examples. 

Edited February 16, 2024 by Scott Free

[The Barbarian]

17 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You might want to look into Babylonian Arithmetic Methods which were as precision as the math we use today.  Look up The Antikythera mechanism which is basically an ancient hand-cranked computer that tracked the movement of planets in our solar system.  It was thought to be ancient Greek, but it has cuneiform writing on it indicating it is much older.  Look at the gears, and modern replica.

Not everyone back then was a sheep herder.

 

The initial settings on the device suggest it was built shortly after 200 BC.   The fact that it had the Greek Zodiac rather than any Mesopotamian ones, indicates it was constructed in one of the Greek colonies.