WAR IN OCTOBER

[Retrobyter]

14 minutes ago, other one said:

by understanding that there is a new heaven and a new earth.    There is still earth forever even if it is not the same dimension or with the same physical laws.

I stopped trying to nitpick the Bible years ago, for sometimes we don't always catch the translation meanings of all the words.

That's how I rectify it.

Shalom, other one.

But, "earth forever" is not the same thing if it is "in another dimension" or not following the "same physical laws!" Furthermore, if one ignores Ecclesiastes 1:4, why should one believe Romans 6:23 or 2 Corinthians 5:21? It's a slippery slope to start ignoring the WHOLE council of God's Word!

[Retrobyter]

56 minutes ago, other one said:

by understanding that there is a new heaven and a new earth.    There is still earth forever even if it is not the same dimension or with the same physical laws.

I stopped trying to nitpick the Bible years ago, for sometimes we don't always catch the translation meanings of all the words.

That's how I rectify it.

Shalom, again, other one.

I should also mention that Peter implied that the New Heavens and the New Earth won't be any more different than the current heavens and the current earth were different than the heavens and the earth before the Flood. We don't go elsewhere; the earth and its skies are simply transformed. If God could put the animals and Noach's family on an ark and preserve them through the Flood, then He can do the same for us through the Fire, preserving the raw materials for the earth, and rebuilding what is necessary to re-form the New Earth.

Just as in our high-rise buildings today, the New Jerusalem will be mostly air, which may be how it gets the nickname "Heaven." The crystalline structures of its walls and foundations are being formed in space during its time since it was first formed until today. Although gold is one of the heaviest elements, most of the gold will not be solid either. The buildings, for instance, that are built from gold will be mostly hollow and filled with air, too, providing living area.

As I've said before, a pastor friend of mine, who was my Bible teacher for a year, also said that the simplest outline for the Bible he had ever seen was, ...

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Genesis 4 to Revelation 22

And, we looked at Genesis 1 and 2 and how Revelation 21 and 22 seems to provide the same components, only greater in number.

[other one]

47 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

I should also mention that Peter implied that the New Heavens and the New Earth won't be any more different than the current heavens and the current earth were different than the heavens and the earth before the Flood.

I'll be looking forward as to how he's going to put a 1500 mile high city of Jerusalem on earth.

That would be bumping into our low earth satellites.

Edited October 9, 2023 by other one
to add about the satallites

[other one]

now that I think about it doesn't it say there will be no more seas and   sun

[FJK]

On 10/2/2023 at 10:09 PM, Slibhin said:

Torah doesn't say, so the correct answer is "dunno". If one goes by the Talmud it was possibly one of the following:

1. An actual snake.

2. Satan sent by G-d to test Adam and Eve.

3. The Garden of Eden story is allegorical.

Do you as you have an instinctual personal feeling, a gut feeling as such, as to which is the actual case?

No judging one way or the other, just wondering.

Good to hear from you, hope you are in safety where you are.

[choir loft]

On 10/3/2023 at 12:09 AM, Slibhin said:

Torah doesn't say, so the correct answer is "dunno". If one goes by the Talmud it was possibly one of the following:

1. An actual snake.

2. Satan sent by G-d to test Adam and Eve.

3. The Garden of Eden story is allegorical.

Talmud is NOT recognized as canon scripture either by the church or by Jews.  

Therefore references to Talmud are invalid.

Jesus didn't acknowledge Talmud as valid either. Neither did any of the apostles.

Therefore references to Talmud are invalid.

Torah implies the tempter was intelligent "more crafty than any beast". (Genesis 3:1) Therefore it wasn't truly animal in nature.  It only appeared to be.

The serpent isn't given a name until much later in scripture where the creature enjoys the occupation of tempter, liar, thief and murderer.  (Pretty much like American politicians.)

The scene in Genesis 3 wasn't a 'test' as assumed here.

Traditionally its assumed to have been a failed attempt by God to teach Eve (the 1st sinner) and Adam (who she seduced into SIN) how to love God.  The lesson failed - obviously.  Humans have been ardently in love with themselves ever since....especially our women.

The Garden of Eden was a real place.  I've been in the environs.

Modern archeologists have located it near the northern region of the present Persian Gulf.   That body of water covers the confluence of the four rivers mentioned in Genesis.   The river beds of the two rivers not seen on maps today were accidentally discovered by satellite survey (while actually searching for oil deposits beneath the Gulf).

Portions of what the Arabs call THE LAND OF DILMUN have been unearthed on the island of Bahrain in the Persian Gulf.   I have been to the dig and, with permission of authorities, brought home some of the pottery shards found there.  In Arabic Dilmun means Eden.  (Look it up)

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by choir loft

[JohnD]

I would only add that Rabbi Shaul of Tarsus (the Apostle Paul) wrote which was also Talmudic:

1 Timothy 2:11–15 (KJV)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV)
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Note also that Adam was not deceived. Eve was.

If Adam ate the fruit willingly, as some teach, choosing the love of his wife over any outcome of eating the fruit... he was deceived about all that eating the forbidden fruit entailed. So that cannot be true.

If he was defrauded by Eve, who simply handed Adam the fruit and he ate it, he was not deceived but betrayed / defrauded. Remember Eve suddenly had the same human nature we all possess to this very moment (7k-10K years later).

There is no other way around this unless Adam was actually deceived.

Is this misogynist?

Take it up with the Talmud "scriptures" of the orthodox Jews...

[JohnD]

Since this thread began as a reference to the current war in Eretz, I'll post this link for those interested in the Israeli perspective as I am:

Israel National News

[choir loft]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:51 PM, Slibhin said:

I'm enjoying your misogyny. As if Adam didn't know not to eat the fruit or was too whipped to say no. Nowhere in Genesis does it say Adam was tricked or seduced into eating it. Apparently you think women love themselves more then men love themselves... interesting belief since society is built around men.

The Talmud is scripture to Orthodox Jews and claiming otherwise shows your ignorance of Judaism. You cannot be considered a Jew if you reject the Talmud, it would be like a Christian coming here and saying he doesn't believe in the trinity. It's just not a thing.

Jesus did acknowledge the Talmud, and because yours truly has read the first four Gospels in her husband's bible I can even tell you where:

Matthew 10:9-10

9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 

This is a direct reference to the Talmud which says a teacher (rabbi) is not allowed to take any form of payment for teaching the Torah. he is also referring to the Talmud which says that a rabbi, when visiting a house or community, is to be supported for his efforts.

Mark 12:24-25

24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

This is also directly referring the Talmud which teaches that in the world to come we will no longer reproduce.

Matthew 7:2

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The Talmud says people are judged by both their good and evil inclinations.

There are plenty more times Jesus referred to teachings from the Talmud, feel free to look them up. I have not read any other part of the bible so I don't know if any of his students quoted anything.

You're very welcome!

Eden doesn't exist because G-d either took it away, or it was obliterated when the earth was destroyed in Noah's flood. Eden is a common term in the ancient world for particularly beautiful or any place considered a paradise. You didn't find it, no one will ever find it because G-d made sure we wouldn't.

Several points here;

The word 'seduced' wasn't used to describe Eve's persuasion of Adam to eat forbidden fruit.  In this you are correct.  

However, in Genesis 3:6 we read that it was indeed Eve who first SINNED and that she DID encourage Adam to join her in it.  If this isn't seduction then a passage in a dictionary needs to be consulted. 

According to Merriam-Webster dictionary SEDUCTION is: something that attracts or charms. 

Did Eve not attract Adam to eat?   We may deduce from scripture that she did.

As for Western American culture being driven by men, that's a fallacy and a slogan used by feminists to advance their agenda.  

In most careers its women who are predominant in decision making at top or near top levels.  As of 2021 there were 47 women listed as CEOs of major Fortune 500 companies.  The number is growing.  I have personally worked in situations where women were in charge.  I may add here my personal observation based upon experience that they DID NOT manage the organization well.  In every case they cost the company or institution MORE money than was expedient or economical.  Yet, because they were women their decisions weren't challenged - couldn't be challenged.

You wrote:

The Talmud is scripture to Orthodox Jews and claiming otherwise shows your ignorance of Judaism. You cannot be considered a Jew if you reject the Talmud, it would be like a Christian coming here and saying he doesn't believe in the trinity. It's just not a thing.

I DID NOT CLAIM OTHERWISE.  I DID NOT CLAIM ORTHODOX JEWS DIDN'T HOLD TO TALMUD.   I DID claim that Talmud is NOT divinely inspired scripture.

Claiming who is or is not a Jew is an illegitimate definition of discipline and birthright falsely asserted by those of the Orthodox discipline.  

They like to claim they're the ONLY REAL JEWS thus rejecting all other disciplines of Judaism.  They're also the only discipline who denies their duty to defend Israel - hiding their heads in the sand of their false assumptions so as to avoid responsibility for defense of and allegiance to their own nation.  They deliberately ignore the fact that the enemies of Israel do not make so fine a distinction between who is or who isn't a Jew.  All Jews are targets.   Let's consider reality here, shall we?

Y'shua is what may be described in modern terms as a Karaite Jew.  Such a discipline denies Talmud and holds ONLY to Tanakh (Torah, prophets & writings).  Those of us who follow THAT discipline refuse to be bound by the machinations of Talmud (also referenced as "the law" in the second part of the Bible - the gospels and epistles of Y'shuah's JEWISH talmidim/disiples).  None of them acknowledged ANY authority of Talmud upon anyone.  

As for your assertions that Y'shuah quoted Talmud I may point out here that Talmud is so extensive and confusing that even modern day airline schedules are said to be affected by it.  Talmudic scholars often twist its words to suit their own arguments.  It's claimed Talmud has solid arguments but in point of fact those who quote it employ subjective arguments rather than those of the LAW of Moses.  They do so for their own glorification and hubris.

Matt 10:9-10 is a reference ONLY to the specific mission being discussed in context. In Luke 22:35 THE REASON Y'shuah said this is explained - that the unique mission was miraculous in nature.  Luke's quotation reverses Y'shuah's instructions for all other missions.  This reversal is definitely NOT Talmudic in nature.

Mark 12:24-25 is a reference to a discussion between the discipline of the Sadducees, who DID NOT believe in a resurrection and the discipline of the pharisees WHO DID.  It is not accepted by anyone as an endorsement of Talmud - not by His Talmidim nor by any apostle who later wrote of such things.

Matthew 7:2 is another abuse of Y'shuah's intended teaching. In your post you wrote; The Talmud says people are judged by both their good and evil inclinations.

Your assertion may be true, but it isn't accurate at all.  Big difference.

Y'shuah refined the attitude of judging in depth.   John 3:19 quotes Him saying, "Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."

Did Talmud ever say Y'shuah is the light of the world?  Yes or no?  Y'shuah equated that light with His own words and person.

It is SINNERS who judge themselves.   This is why Y'shuah told His Talmidim NOT to judge others.  This is why Y'shuah denied them their request for authority to call down fire from heaven upon those who rejected Y'shuah as ha Mashiach.

The conceited attitude of ORTHODOX JEWS to judge everybody but themselves unworthy of divine grace is well known among all Jews.  

Christians aren't immune to this sort of hubris either.  They automatically assume only protestant evangelicals are worthy of grace - denying as they do Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, all Jews etc. ad nauseum.

In the book of Acts its recorded, "Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you (Jews). Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life...behold we are turning to the gentiles" (Acts 13:46)

Jews don't have a monopoly on scriptural obfuscation either.  Before the church was established by Roman Emperor Constantine a great deal of pagan influence krept into church dogma.  Constantine added to it greatly and to this day much that Moses taught (rejected by the church) and what Y'shuah taught is either ignored misquoted or held as false gospel (I refer specifically to the false doctrine of the Tribulation.)

EDEN is a place identified by modern archeological discoveries.

It is the TREE OF LIFE that was denied to all the future generations of spiritually unregenerate humankind.

So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:24)

It wasn't me that found it.   I merely visited one of the digs on the island of Bahrain.  GOOGLE IT.

Dilmun is the specific name of a kingdom that existed in ancient times.  It wasn't a figment of Talmudic reference and it wasn't an allegory.  It was real.  I was there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Life_(Bahrain)

There is, however, an oddity in the southern portion of the island of Bahrain that is one of those unexplained matters of science.   A large tree grows there where nothing else but oil pumps exist.   I've been to the area, but never actually saw the tree itself.  A four lane highway was built from the main city of Manama to the palace of the Shiek.   Trees were planted in the dividing section and are individually watered each day by men driving a water tank truck.  I've driven along that road and I've seen those men watering each individual tree.  

Nobody waters the great tree in the south.  

As a personal note, there have been many tourists visiting the tree, leaving their trash all over the place.  I'm told by others who have visited recently that the site isn't as pristine as when I visited the area over fifty years ago.   To the best of my knowledge there is no fruit upon the living tree today.   

Somewhere along the line you need to seriously consider something other than Talmudic myths and assertions.  Science alone proves much of it erroneous. You would do well to try to think outside the Talmudic box.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by choir loft

[JohnD]

16 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Really?

- Berakhot 17a says that women get a greater reward then men from Hashem.

- Shabbat 33b calls women a "light on knowledge" (psst, this means wiser)

- Yebamot 62b Says a man without a wife is without joy or goodness.

- Sifre, 133 Says women have greater faith then men.

 

Why don't you enlighten me by telling me where in the Talmud it says any of yours and "rabbi" Paul's assertations so I can look it up. Don't just repeatedly assert that it's there like you usually do, tell me exactly where so I can read it for myself.

Paul was raised and educated in the Jewish Sanhedrin. According to you the Talmud is considered holy writ in Orthodox circles. Two plus two still equals four.

Tell me, in addition to females not texting males in private, female head covering, females dancing separately from males, and in some congregations even being seated on separate sides... comes from what?

By the fact you are here and were married to a Christian tells me you are a rebel in those circles (meaning at least by appearances that you do not agree with every little detail of Orthodoxy).

What halacha restrictions do you abide by in your chosen profession?

It must be like the obgyn who doesn't do abortions (which is the case with my beloved sister-in-law Dr. Elsa who lost a lot of jobs and money for refusing to murder innocent babies).