12 Reasons I Know that I am Eternally Secure (I am a Child of God)!

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Loving Father's don't see their children killed, but rather they discipline them and correct them so that they can grow and mature properly, and build effectively with the things that are profitable (gold, silver, precious stone).

Thank God we are not under Law. And yet we are supposed to be instructed by it. What do we learn by Torah? God's opinion regarding obedient vs. rebellious children, as opposed to our own opinions, which may not reflect His heart.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

The judgment is not accomplishment, but whether or not deeds were accomplished in God's Will. This includes motive and intent. Many decide on grand pursuits of their own design. Others may see this and say "Look at what he has accomplished! What a mighty man of God!" The Lord may say "I never knew you, for you were a rebellious child." (a worker of iniquity), and cast into outer darkness.

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

My perspective is that most of the verses that appear to be related to conditional salvation, are in fact referring to accountability for the believer once they become born-again children of God. 

Conditional means if>then. At what point did the believer become a born again child of God, if creation eagerly awaits their revealing?

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (There it is, the conditional)

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Can we lay claim now to what is only to be given at the Revelation of Christ, and His Judgment?

Let us define this by the Word of God. How does one know they are being led by the Spirit of God?

2 Corinthians 1: 5-7 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

This is what it means to overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and the Word of our Testimony. That we did not love our lives, even unto death.

Romans 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

So how do we experience this assurance in truth?

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 

19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Herein is the conclusion of the matter: An unloving Christian is an oxymoron.

Our assurance can never be solely on what we believe. It must be "in deed and in truth", as obedient children, not by my will, but His. Accountability does not create the appearance of conditionality, it establishes the conditions and demands a response.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Mr. M

[Marathoner]

21 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Our assurance can never be solely on what we believe. It must be "in deed and in truth", as obedient children, not by my will, but His. Accountability does not create the appearance of conditionality, it establishes the conditions and demands a response.

A wonderful post throughout. The above is crucial for this discussion. This is why I focused upon the discipline of the Lord which is where "deeds and truth" are impressed upon us; not mere ideas nor something to believe in but rather, for us to walk in. We are to walk in those works we were created for.

That is our response to the Lord. When He said, serve your neighbor, I understood that this is how I serve Him. He doesn't need my hands, but my neighbor does! The "assurance" is our faith in the Lord to teach us His ways, correct us when it is needful, and equip us to walk in that way we should go. 

[Jaydub]

22 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

It has been bothering and a little grieving to me to see all my brothers and sisters on here who don’t realize what a complete work Christ has done for us in giving us eternal life, which may never be taken from us!  Christ’s awesome work, in His substitutionary death and resurrection, results in His very life being made available to “whosoever wills.”  And through being born-again we are made God’s children, who can’t be unborn. 

In honesty I grieve a little too when I read posts like this, because they can be misleading.

 

22 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

4.      Old things have passed away and I am a new creature in Christ! (2 Corinthians 5:17, Col. 3:1-3)

 I believe this is where the problem or misunderstandings occur. There has to be a change a transformation, if the old things have not passed away, you have not been born again.  If you are a new creation, then the old you has passed away. You can not be dragging that old man around with you, you are dead to sin, which means you can no longer do it. People use the phrase you are dead to me,  meaning that you are no longer part of my life. I will not talk to you ever again. It is as though you are died.

If we are still living in our sin, then we are not dead to it. I am not saying we don't occasionally fall, but we can not go on willfully sinning. If we go on in sin then we are not a new creation and have not been born again. There are many examples of this. A spring can not bare salt water and fresh water a good tree can not bare bad fruit.

Look at the church of Laodicea. Jesus is speaking to believers, because you are neither hot or cold I will spew you out of my mouth, I wish you were one or the other, hot of cold but because you are luke warm I spit you out of my mouth. Here we see believing is not enough, we have to be all in. We can't live half in the flesh and half in the spirit. We have died to the flesh how can we go on sinning

I really don't think once saved always saved is the right question. I think the right question is can you go on sinning and BE saved

[Marathoner]

"Once saved always saved" is a trap, my friends. It's a trap wherein brothers and sisters endlessly argue about hypothetical situations, ignoring the truth that we are saved right now. Eternal assurance is similar to that snare, the "I know because I know because I know" feat of circular reasoning. I point toward the obvious:

What's the fruit of these discussions? Nothing worthwhile nor edifying. No one changes their minds, and no one moves on from the doctrine of salvation. That's the irony of it all. We understand that our Lord saves us and rightly so; but there's so much more to discipleship than spinning in fruitless circles like children on a merry-go-round ride. 

Look after widows and orphans. Encourage one another daily. Obey the voice of the Lord who has given us more than we can possibly imagine or conceive, confident that He will indeed finish that work He started in us. Listen to what others have to say, test the spirits, and be kind to one and all. Those are the exhortations of the apostles to us. Walk in the works we were created for.  

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Nothing worthwhile nor edifying. No one changes their minds, and no one moves on from the doctrine of salvation.

Hi, I have changed my understanding over some 40 years now. It has been fruitful for me! I was raised up  in my new birh OSAS but have had a rolling change over the many years to  yes one can lose salvation, by rejecting it, to now seeing more of a Calvinist view on salvation itself and the declaration made by Paul in his epistle to the church body at Rome That being  what is now called Romans 8:28-30. 

I was given to Jesus by His Father, Jesus does not lose me. Therefore I have not ever been unsaved. My own salvation has always been foreknown and predestined. Might I reject that salvation? Not this side of my sanity I can't.

The practical effect is that though I never knew it until I was some 37 years old I was always one of Jesus', one given him by His father.

If there is any  acronym to apply  it is not OSAS but instead AKAPBGA always known and predestined by God alone.

Might my understanding change yet again? Could be I suppose, but regardless I am where I am, a soldier of Jesus' Army,  standing whatever post I am assigned.

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Reformation was a war. Men died for their beliefs. the main thrust of the Reformers was to extract themselves from Rome's power. They did much good and were surely used by God. We sit on their shoulders today.

This would be better said in the past tense: we once sat on their shoulders, and here is why. Catholicism is the largest religion in the world, with 1.4 billion adherents rapidly growing. It is on fire now in these last days, under the leadership of Pope Francis and his successful and popular ecumenical movement. Protestant denominations and some sects of Islam are signing letters of agreement or coming back under the umbrella of the one true universal church. (Red flag)

Pope Francis, the first Jesuit Pope (omitting the history of the Jesuit arm), is a hardcore socialist, globalist, and mother earth worshipper, and will baptize ETs if they need it. His messages never concern Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

There is no need to discuss Bible ownership, the Dark Ages, the Inquisitions, the Crusades, the Reformation, etc.; you know them better than I do. History repeats itself; today's mantra is the Bible is hating speech, divisive, and non-inclusive, Christians are divisive and intolerant, a basket of deplorables, and Christians are the problem with unity, solidarity, and alternative lifestyles. The Bible and its teachings are restricted, monitored, censored, dropped, and increasingly banned by Amazon, publishers, social media, YouTube, and others.

We are being bombarded with frequent TOS agreements, everything from our banks to purchasing anything over the World Wide Web. The latest one was from Regions Bank, estimated reading time, of twenty-five minutes. If I read all the TOS I receive, I would not have any time for anything else. However, I have spent some time reading some of them, and it is easy to see it has gone from them serving us to vice versa (oligarchy).

Hostility and intolerance are again forming against Jews and Christians as we approach the final climax of history. The cursing and flippant use of the most precious Name ever, Jesus Christ. Why is the 2^nd most populous religion never under public and government attack, with about 1.2 billion adherents, Islam, or any other religion? They are constantly pacified, tolerated, and catered to protected classes. Public schools can and do teach about Islam and other faiths, save Christianity and our nation's history, relationships, and laws that shaped our nation.

Has anyone ever heard in other cultures, Buddha Damn, Allah Damn, Mohammod Damn? It is always Jesus and our God; why is that? That is a rhetorical question because I know the answer.  

Everyone has an innate sense of the One true living Creator God. I have heard many stories about devout atheists and unbelievers faced with immediate death, shouting out, “Save me, Jesus.”

The Catholic Church operates tens of thousands of Catholic schools, universities and colleges, hospitals, and orphanages worldwide. It is the world's largest non-government provider of education and health care. Among its other social services are numerous charitable and humanitarian organizations. They are work-based, earning their way toward Salvation. They do not believe Salvation is a free gift from God for the asking.

The Catholic Church, in the Council of Trent session VI, condemns the Protestant notion of sola fide ("saved by faith alone"), making them an heir. They have not nor will not change that heresy.

As we know, the word "Ecumenism" comes from the Greek (oikoumene) which means "the whole inhabited world" (One World Religion?), and was historically used with specific reference to the Roman Empire. And it is the Roman PAPAL Empire that is leading the way with ecumenism today, spearheaded by Francis.

We see what Satan is trying to do through the Roman Catholic Church and this interfaith movement. Since when did Christ Jesus "desire" the whole world to unite, no matter what they believed? (Reminds me of one people, one language, one religion, Tower of Bable and dispersion) God clearly told His people to "come out from among them and be separate" (2 Corinthians 6:17).

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God also confirmed that "two people cannot walk together unless they be agreed (Amos 3:3). And yet the Pope and the leaders of this ecumenical movement are uniting the people of the world, no matter what faith or beliefs they have. This is the whore of Babylon; the Vatican, its beliefs and practices, and the World Council of Churches is in affiliation and agreement.

As Ecclesiastes 1:9 states above, it looks to me like the reformers and protestors are willingly going back under the umbrella of the Universal Church of ROME. I further surmise, that this, or something close to it, will be the global religion of inclusion and peace for mankind and "Mother Earth."

[Vine Abider]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Thank God we are not under Law. And yet we are supposed to be instructed by it. What do we learn by Torah? God's opinion regarding obedient vs. rebellious children, as opposed to our own opinions, which may not reflect His heart.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

The judgment is not accomplishment, but whether or not deeds were accomplished in God's Will. This includes motive and intent. Many decide on grand pursuits of their own design. Others may see this and say "Look at what he has accomplished! What a mighty man of God!" The Lord may say "I never knew you, for you were a rebellious child." (a worker of iniquity), and cast into outer darkness.

Conditional means if>then. At what point did the believer become a born again child of God, if creation eagerly awaits their revealing?

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (There it is, the conditional)

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Can we lay claim now to what is only to be given at the Revelation of Christ, and His Judgment?

Let us define this by the Word of God. How does one know they are being led by the Spirit of God?

2 Corinthians 1: 5-7 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

This is what it means to overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and the Word of our Testimony. That we did not love our lives, even unto death.

Romans 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

So how do we experience this assurance in truth?

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 

19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Herein is the conclusion of the matter: An unloving Christian is an oxymoron.

Our assurance can never be solely on what we believe. It must be "in deed and in truth", as obedient children, not by my will, but His. Accountability does not create the appearance of conditionality, it establishes the conditions and demands a response.

You lay out some interesting things here!

If we look at Romans 8:15-23 there is an a progression worth considering.  It says in v. 15 that "you have received a spirit of adoption as sons" and in v. 15  it confirms "The Spirit of God testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God."  Verse 19 says, "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God."  Then verse 23 says "having the first fruit of the Spirit" and then equates the "adoption as sons" to the "redemption of our body."

A lot going on there!  What I think may trip up many a discussion about salvation are the three aspects or phases of salvation.  First, we are reborn in our spirit with His Spirit: "That which is born of Spirit is spirit."  At this event Christ takes residence in our innermost being, our human spirit, through His indwelling Spirit.  The next phase is the ongoing sanctification and transformation of our soul (mind, will & emotion).  In this phase we have a choice of spirit and flesh (aka life & death or Last Adam & old man).  One might say when we are born-again, Christ established a beachhead in our spirit.  And now the battlefield is in our soul, with the renewed spirit on one side and the old flesh on the other.  This battle in us for the transformation of our soul takes a lifetime.  (the flesh & spirit remain constants and opposed to one another)

Then the last phase of our salvation is the "redemption of our body" as mentioned in Romans 8:23, which Paul says in 1 Cor 15:52 that we will all be "transformed in the twinkling of an eye" and this certainly appears to be speaking about our fleshly body.

So I suspect much misunderstanding comes in when we're conversing about this topic . . . we need to be clear what phase of salvation we are looking at in scripture and relating to.

Does anyone else have this understanding of salvation (in three phases)?

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, Marathoner said:

"Once saved always saved" is a trap, my friends. It's a trap wherein brothers and sisters endlessly argue about hypothetical situations, ignoring the truth that we are saved right now. Eternal assurance is similar to that snare, the "I know because I know because I know" feat of circular reasoning. I point toward the obvious:

What's the fruit of these discussions? Nothing worthwhile nor edifying. No one changes their minds, and no one moves on from the doctrine of salvation. That's the irony of it all. We understand that our Lord saves us and rightly so; but there's so much more to discipleship than spinning in fruitless circles like children on a merry-go-round ride. 

Look after widows and orphans. Encourage one another daily. Obey the voice of the Lord who has given us more than we can possibly imagine or conceive, confident that He will indeed finish that work He started in us. Listen to what others have to say, test the spirits, and be kind to one and all. Those are the exhortations of the apostles to us. Walk in the works we were created for.  

You know, I hadn't even heard the OSAS moniker until pretty recently.  To me it was just obvious that we were eternally secure, and that scripture also shows accountability for the believer's works after their initial (born-again) salvation, which will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ.  I am actually surprised that many don't have that same understanding, so I guess I was a little naïve.

My intention with this thread was to lay our what I've been shown and see in scripture on the matter.  I purposely tried to keep it all in the first person - that is, regarding what I believe.  There are no accusations that others are off the mark, etc. --> just presenting what I think are liberating truths . . . at least for me.

And let's face it, we can disagree over about any noncore item (aka "the majors") of our faith, and that's fine.  And while I think this a key topic, it's probably not a core or imperative item of the faith (a next level "important" one perhaps?).  The bottom-line of any such matter is that we are called to love one another first and foremost.

Maybe and hopefully through our discourse and carefully/prayerfully examining the word, we maintain the oneness of the faith and fellowship, and may the Lord shine light on all of us (because I doubt any of us has the whole market cornered on salvation reality & truths)!

[Vine Abider]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:36 PM, AdHoc said:

The debate that rages is flawed. Have you ever noticed that the antagonists can't effectively deal with their opponent's scriptures. If they could, there would be no debate. What is the flaw? The flaw is because salvation to the average Christian is heaven. If heaven is salvation and entering it is based on works, then the argument is settled. But every one knows that salvation is not going to heaven.

Agreed! Because it's often a binary either/or discussion, the two sides (OSAS is true; OSAS is not true) can't reconcile the other side's scriptures as they don't seem to fit their concept!  As has been mentioned a few times on other threads, it's like the proverbial story of the blind men encountering an elephant for the first time and trying to relate what they feel to the others.*  None has the full picture, so they insist their "view" is correct and argue incessantly.  If they all got together and were open to hearing the others, they might come much closer to getting a more complete picture!

* the first blind man grabs the tail and says, "The elephant is like a rope!"  The 2nd holds a leg and says emphatically, "No way - the elephant is like a solid tree!"  and so forth . . .

[Sower]

On 9/16/2023 at 1:19 PM, Vine Abider said:

I hope and sincerely pray these may be a help to some and that God would shine liberating light on all of us.

  (13) another one VA..(for me the neatest)

                   "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"

When God saved me, I had thirty yrs of RCC dogma to unload, review and revise, works maintaining salvation was the biggie.
To the (RCC), to even believe I was saved was a sin, the sin of presumption, to presume upon God I did enough works to be saved. Took months of study (as new believer) to fully grasps God's amazing grace. Never means, never leave me nor for sake me.
A no brainer when the scriptures flooded in the light and set me free of the RCC dogma, and that awareness of my Abba's love.

Yet I post not to debate the issue, for to someone secure in the unfailing love of God, I need not try to convince anyone of what the spirit revealed to me. It does not matter to me the actual final total truth revealed when the time comes to find out the calvinism/arminianism debate nor the OSAS/works debate etc etc etc ad nauseam. It just doesn't matter, when it comes to standing for Christ, to make a stand, to share the gospel (GOOD news) to the lost and dying, and simply enjoying God.
What is the cause/enemy for us not sharing the good news? Rehashing so many unverifiable (so far) doctrines using man's methods for centuries with no consensus yet?  God says; "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known" Study yes, for sure, but to what end?
 

“But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 

Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.”

                                            "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations"
                                                            "He that winneth souls is wise"
                                                                 Give us boldness, Lord