Progressive Sanctification/Salvation

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Yes, I misunderstood what you wrote. I appreciate the clarification, brother. My apologies for missing the boat and falling into the water! 

Coming to our Lord Jesus Christ is a matter of our testimony. This relates specifically to what @Vine Abider shared regarding the progressive nature of the Lord's work in each one of us, for I was utterly clueless when the Lord called to me. It's rather personal to be sure, but it would be worthwhile to share some of my testimony here because our brother might not be aware of how relevant his topic is to me. Indeed, it speaks of my relationship with the Lord in a powerful way.

This is going to be much longer than what I typically post.

I suffered many things under the roof of my parents' house so that, when I managed to escape their power by enlisting in the U.S. Army, it was a foreshadowing of what was to come. For the first time in my life, I was free of that prison I had languished in from the day I was born, and I was not yet aware of what a mess I truly was. I did not comprehend what years of abuse and neglect can do to a human being, let alone what those things had done to me. Witnessing terrible things being done to my siblings damaged my heart and mind, but the military offered me a place where I was only known by my dedication to duty and willingness to follow my lawful orders with precision. When I did well, I was commended for it. I wasn't subject to random beatings... or worse, being forced to watch while those whom I love were assaulted and brutalized... and it wasn't impossible to satisfy my superiors. In fact, I was shocked by their approval and commendations regarding my performance as a soldier. I couldn't believe it. It must be a lie. 

After my term of enlistment expired and I was honorably discharged, I was lost in this world. I couldn't return to the place I had escaped from, but neither did I have a place to go. I continued to lead the only life I had known as a child: moving from one place to the other. As some will already know, I wasn't raised learning about the Lord. Of course, I had heard about Jesus Christ in passing --- most of us in the United States have at one time or another --- but as a young man (20s), the programming of my childhood had successfully conditioned me to avoid Christians and churches. I was beaten if it was discovered that I had contact with Christians. I wasn't permitted to have Christian friends... it was just a part of the only life I had known in this world. I refused to attend the church on post during Army Basic Training, opting to scrub pots and pans in the mess hall kitchen (KP duty) while the rest of my platoon went to church on Sundays. 

Did some go just to avoid work details like KP duty? Yes, quite a few did, but I wasn't concerned about that. I focused all of my attention and energy upon doing the best job in the mess hall kitchen I possibly could, earning the regard of the mess hall non-commissioned officer in charge. He appreciated my enthusiasm, and I enjoyed the opportunity to work. It kept my mind off of myself and my troubles, and that was the gift the U.S. Army offered to me. It was why I did so well as a soldier. 

When the Spirit of the Lord came after my time in the Army was finished, it was out of the blue. Instead of recounting what the Lord said, I would like to communicate to our readers what I knew:

I knew that He is God. I was an outcast in this world, but the Lord claimed me as His own; He wasn't wrathful, nor did He chastise me for the many wrongs I have committed. Come to Me, the Lord said, and He would relieve me of those burdens which tormented me for so long. The Lord would fashion me into the man He intended me to be, and I would never have to leave His presence. I would not be a stranger in His house, and He would never cast me out. 

That was the beginning of His work, and I'm surely not the only one who has been changed by our Lord Jesus Christ over the course of time. I didn't always understand, but my comprehension wasn't needful. It wasn't needful for this work is done by Him, and not us. We are the clay, and the Lord is the Potter. We are clay in His hand!

Having been a mess taught, healed, and restored by the Lord offers me insight into the suffering of our brothers and sisters who have endured the same. This is why I refuse to judge based on appearances alone, as some are wont to do (I know you aren't doing that, brother). Not only have I been a complete mess, but the Lord has planted me into the lives of others were also a complete mess. Some have been damaged by the self-righteous who condemned them because they couldn't understand, so I tend to be a bit sensitive where that is concerned. I'm here for them.  

Amen Brother. I hope Vine will again excuse me for subverting his thread's topic.

We have many commonalities, especially in our military service and experience. Having not experienced any abuse as a child growing up in the hands of my parents, I can only sympathize and guess what it must have been like and how that affected you. My experience is not what my parents did to me but what I did to my parents.

For brevity, I will not detail much about my upbringing and testimony, as I posted that in the testimony forum here on Worthy. Like you, the military changed my life also, but not for the better spiritually in the long run. You and I both know the importance of camaraderie and fitting in with your peers and chain of command in the military. The military is a cohesive, uniform service with many parts working as one. This sounds much like Christian soldiers and our service, does it not?

I first got drunk during advanced individual training (AIT). That turned into many decades of alcoholism and all its associated problems.

I was a rebellious teenager; I wanted out of the house on my own at any cost. Living under my parent's roof, three meals a day, housing, nurturing, directing, and loving me, I was not too fond of restrictions or accountability. Be home at such an hour, where will you be, how long will you be there, who will you be with? I could not support myself, yet I did not want to be responsible or accountable.

With the Vietnam War raging on, I constantly threatened my father with, as soon as I turn eighteen, I am joining the military unless you will sign for me at seventeen. He would not, so I had to wait until eighteen to join the military. I was a rotten and selfish brat, hurting my father, my shameful arrogance that cannot be apologized for or taken back.

My military life blossomed with rank and recognition from the day I enlisted, while my spiritual life sank into iniquity and sin. I do not recall how many times I called on the Name of Jesus in Vietnam to save me from impending death—shortly after that, I forgot all about it and got intoxicated again at the first opportunity.

I attended military Chaplin church services in basic training, not because I wanted to avoid the alternative if I did not go to church, but because it gave me peace and a familiar place I was brought up in by my grandparents. From then on, I do not recall attending a church until the mid-1970s.   

Fast forward through decades, and a long testimonial story short. Shortly after I repented and the Lord changed my life in 2016 and restored me, a Bible verse jumped off the pages of the Bible and profoundly impacted me, even to this day.

Philippians 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The military quickly changed my thinking from childish to adult. Jesus changed my spiritual thinking and entire life; he has forgiven and healed me.

I have enjoyed many benefits of being a military veteran. I now possess the best gift one can ever ask for: eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

[Mr. M]

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things,

in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 

11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason 

He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Sanctification defines who are His, as all are of One in sanctification.

Those who remain un-sanctified are none of His.

Romans 8:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ

from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Note that Paul uses "dwell", not abide. In Romans 7, it is sin dwelling in man that causes him to "do the things that he would not", and by the same token, it is the Holy Spirit that causes man to do what is pleasing in His sight. This is the sanctification of the Spirit.

[Marathoner]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Amen Brother. I hope Vine will again excuse me for subverting his thread's topic.

We have many commonalities, especially in our military service and experience. Having not experienced any abuse as a child growing up in the hands of my parents, I can only sympathize and guess what it must have been like and how that affected you. My experience is not what my parents did to me but what I did to my parents.

For brevity, I will not detail much about my upbringing and testimony, as I posted that in the testimony forum here on Worthy. Like you, the military changed my life also, but not for the better spiritually in the long run. You and I both know the importance of camaraderie and fitting in with your peers and chain of command in the military. The military is a cohesive, uniform service with many parts working as one. This sounds much like Christian soldiers and our service, does it not?

I first got drunk during advanced individual training (AIT). That turned into many decades of alcoholism and all its associated problems.

I was a rebellious teenager; I wanted out of the house on my own at any cost. Living under my parent's roof, three meals a day, housing, nurturing, directing, and loving me, I was not too fond of restrictions or accountability. Be home at such an hour, where will you be, how long will you be there, who will you be with? I could not support myself, yet I did not want to be responsible or accountable.

With the Vietnam War raging on, I constantly threatened my father with, as soon as I turn eighteen, I am joining the military unless you will sign for me at seventeen. He would not, so I had to wait until eighteen to join the military. I was a rotten and selfish brat, hurting my father, my shameful arrogance that cannot be apologized for or taken back.

My military life blossomed with rank and recognition from the day I enlisted, while my spiritual life sank into iniquity and sin. I do not recall how many times I called on the Name of Jesus in Vietnam to save me from impending death—shortly after that, I forgot all about it and got intoxicated again at the first opportunity.

I attended military Chaplin church services in basic training, not because I wanted to avoid the alternative if I did not go to church, but because it gave me peace and a familiar place I was brought up in by my grandparents. From then on, I do not recall attending a church until the mid-1970s.   

Fast forward through decades, and a long testimonial story short. Shortly after I repented and the Lord changed my life in 2016 and restored me, a Bible verse jumped off the pages of the Bible and profoundly impacted me, even to this day.

Philippians 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The military quickly changed my thinking from childish to adult. Jesus changed my spiritual thinking and entire life; he has forgiven and healed me.

I have enjoyed many benefits of being a military veteran. I now possess the best gift one can ever ask for: eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

Ah, but what you wrote does indeed relate to our brother's topic. Salvation and sanctification tell the story of how our Lord Jesus Christ took us as we were from this world, claiming us as His own and how, according to His good pleasure, He changes us. We are changed by the power of God, conformed to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit over the course of time (from glory to glory). His work in us isn't accomplished overnight. 

I'm not familiar with your testimony, brother. I'll look for it (I assume you posted your testimony in the Testimonies forum) but let me say that it's an honor to know you as it were. I'm blessed and edified to read about the Lord's work in you!

In keeping with the progressive quality of His work and revelation to us along the way, I will share His work in one who was very close to me: my late father. My father enlisted in the Army just after the Korean War. He ostensibly joined to play trombone in the U.S. Army Signal Corps band, but his first duty assignment following training was Saudi Arabia. This was followed by a stint in Iran. My father was positioned somewhere in the Syrian Desert, snooping on Soviet radio traffic.

During Vietnam, my family was removed from the U.S. and placed in a secure DoD compound in Bangkok, Thailand, while my father did what he did over there. I have no idea what that was. This is important, but I wouldn't know that until years after I was born. When I recalled how my father suddenly disappeared one day during the mid 1970s --- he was sent to Ethiopia during the communist civil war --- an understanding dawned upon me. The CIA operated listening posts all over the African continent, and they typically used military personnel to handle their operation and maintenance. My father was a military "spook." 

I only learned about him --- and what he had suffered --- after the power of God moved upon my father during my early teens. This happened when my father sought to kill me. He was overcome with terrifying rage (I witnessed this rage in action during my childhood), but something happened which caused the most astonishing change to occur. He saw himself in my eyes, and he realized what he had purposed to do and also, what he had been doing to all of us all along. Did my father belong to the Lord?

Yes. His ability to play musical instruments wasn't a sham, for he played a variety of instruments in the Baptist church where he was born and raised. While I was on leave after my first duty assignment, my father invited me to accompany him to meet the only living relative he loved. I met this elderly lady --- she was pushing 90 --- and she proceeded to tell me about the horrible tragedy of my father's childhood. What I had suffered, he had suffered as well. My father remained silent while this wonderful lady told me how my father was taken from his mother (she was colored during the era of Jim Crow) before he was 3 months old. What he endured by the hands of an abusive uncle left me speechless. I didn't know, brother. 

I never knew what my father had suffered during my own ordeal. This, coupled with whatever was done to him during the Vietnam war, opened my eyes and understanding for the first time. Extreme things can do terrible things to men, women, and children, and so I experienced the same thing that had happened to my father. When I looked into his eyes, I saw myself. 

My mother was a different story. Understanding would not arrive until many years after I came to the Lord. The revelation of what was done to my mother came while I recovered from a close brush with the grave. I received a call from the sibling who kept in secret contact with me now and then over the years --- she never truly turned her back on me --- after my mother passed (she died while I was sick). What my sister told me turned everything I believed upside down. I cried out to the Lord because I couldn't understand!

Forgiving my father wasn't difficult, but it took time to forgive my mother. Forgiveness has nothing to do with excusing someone... it has to do with letting go of trespass. We hold nothing against the trespasser. Letting go of the trespass was the work of the Lord in me. When this was done, I began to learn the nature of what I had suffered, and what it had done to me. The Lord did so much more than heal this body when I almost died. He made me whole!

Our walk with Jesus Christ is progressive, moving through seasons and times, for there is a time and season for every matter under heaven. God is good.  

[Vine Abider]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

Another commendable topic, there bro. Now, just interested why you wrote `Father`s life,` and not the Son`s life.

`And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor. 15: 45)

`And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.` (1 Cor. 15: 49)

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn!  I used the Father's name to make the point that He is the originator of His children's life.  Jesus came to make the Father's name known to us, His many children. 

I think there's plenty of theological support for that, don't you?  Verses that state the Father and Son are one, and the life the Father has given the Son has now been given to us, Christ's many brothers, etc.

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying, 'Abba!"  'Father!'"

[Mr. M]

There is a play on words found in 1 Thessalonians 4,

if you get past the translation.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 whoever disregards this,

disregards not man but God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. 

Some translations use much harsher wording than “disregards”,

such as despises. This is unnecessary, since the word simply

means “to set aside”.

[G114] atheteo=to do away with, to set aside, disregard

You need not despise God or reject his Word

to neglect His Spirit.

Herein lies the wordplay:

1 Thessalonians 4:4 Each of you should know how

to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor... 

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God has not called us unto

uncleanness, but unto holiness.

The word sanctification means “to be set aside” for God’s use.

So Paul is saying if you set aside his instruction you set aside

God, not his instructions. Then he adds,

“Who has given us His Holy Spirit” to emphasize

that this is the work of God’s Spirit in you.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

There is a play on words found in 1 Thessalonians 4,

if you get past the translation.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 whoever disregards this,

disregards not man but God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. 

Some translations use much harsher wording than “disregards”,

such as despises. This is unnecessary, since the word simply

means “to set aside”.

[G114] atheteo=to do away with, to set aside, disregard

You need not despise God or reject his Word

to neglect His Spirit.

Herein lies the wordplay:

1 Thessalonians 4:4 Each of you should know how

to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor... 

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God has not called us unto

uncleanness, but unto holiness.

The word sanctification means “to be set aside” for God’s use.

So Paul is saying if you set aside his instruction you set aside

God, not his instructions. Then he adds,

“Who has given us His Holy Spirit” to emphasize

that this is the work of God’s Spirit in you.

It also says here

1 Thes 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Because in Acts 1:2 it says  he (Jesus) through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen

And despising a commandment that is given by God is actually equated to despising God

For example here

2Sam 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Here, "because thou hast despised me" in that doing

2 Sam 2:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

So as he says (again) here concerning the commandments given by Jesus

1 Thes 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

1 Thes 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Those who love him do his commandments, those who despise him do not when they don't they are linked

Jerm 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. 

See how they contrast between them

Isaiah 48:18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea

John 14:21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Theres others, but despising the commandment and despising God are equal even as shown in a man after God's own heart (David). 

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. (where both things are summed up under one matter)

 

Edit: The dreaded typos, why I do not see these till after I post?

Edited September 28, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Mr. M]

34 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

1 Thes 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Because in Acts 1:2 it says  he (Jesus) through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen

And despising a commandment that is given by God is actually equated to despising God

Great response. Would you say then that progressive

sanctification is disobedience to the heavenly vision?

Acts 26:

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

25 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Great response. Would you say then that progressive

sanctification is disobedience to the heavenly vision?

Acts 26:

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

I can't say I know where you are coming from on this one Mr M or how it might apply to the other, someone else could probably give you a better answer to your question then myself.

[Mr. M]

26 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I can't say I know where you are coming from on this one Mr M or how it might apply to the other, someone else could probably give you a better answer to your question then myself.

You pointed out that Paul's concern here involves commandments, given by Jesus. He goes on to say that to reject his instruction is to reject God. That sounds like disobedience to me. Therefore, progressive sanctification is the perfection of obedience.

Here is a statement that describes sanctification at the highest level. Not just in deed and word, but in our thoughts.

2 Co 10:

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. (pleroo=complete, to the full).

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

You pointed out that Paul's concern here involves commandments, given by Jesus. He goes on to say that to reject his instruction is to reject God. That sounds like disobedience to me. Therefore, progressive sanctification is the perfection of obedience.

Here is a statement that describes sanctification at the highest level. Not just in deed and word, but in our thoughts.

2 Co 10:

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. (pleroo=complete, to the full).

You raise  good point Mr M. You know sometimes my mind doesn't work, I could be talking commandments and you can hit me with visions and I don't make that switch over very easily. I'll often feel like a deer caught in the headlights. Oftentimes, modern time visions (as they might be shared to be) have very little to do with any sort of obedience being required of them.

Even after Paul's initial "fall of his horse" experience, after he lost his sight even, dependent on those with him to take him into the city where he could basically only wait on whatever would happen next, receives another vision. The Lord in Ananias's vision informs us of this. The Lord himself being a witness between two men in both of their visions. The Lord appears to Ananias in a vision Acts 9:10 informing Ananias of Saul's vision (in the which) Saul (who is blinded) sees a man (which is Ananias) coming to him Acts 9:12 whom the Lord was sending that Paul be told what to do Acts 9:6 Its like two-three witnesses (two men) with the Lord establishing them in two visions which include each other in those visions, each one required to play a part.

Same with Peter and Cornelius, Acts 10:3 Cornelius has a vision was told to  send men to Joppa who were told of these things, they were to fetch Peter so that Cornelius could hear the words from his mouth, so these did send for Peter. In the meanwhile Peter himself receives his own vision, which was shown him three times but Peter is still doubtful about what it meant when Cornelius's men had come to him. In  Acts 10:20 So the Spirit instructs Peter (who was still doubtful of his own vision) to go with them, doubting nothing, for I have sent them.

In the one (between Ananias/Saul) The Lord had come to Ananias in a vision and had to prompt him a little because he is  afraid of Saul at first Acts 9:13 Whereas in the other (between Cornelius/Peter) Peter was still doubtful of his vision and probrobly felt pretty much the same about going with Cornelius's men, and needed to be prompted by the Spirit to do so, who informs Peter He sent them and to go with them and be not doubtful. Peter was probably, like, "Ew, Gentile cooties" haha

There seems to be a little room for having some doubt in some visions, it does seem when doubt did show itself between all of them but the Spirit seems to dissolve them for each of them. I think the least amount of doubt in any of them was demonstrated in Paul, but if I was knocked off my horse and blinded for days I think I could be pretty certain of my experience.

At least visions back then seemed to have purpose in believers lives then.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by AFlameOfFire