Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Vine Abider]

17 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

Compare theses two passages:

 

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."  (John 3:36) 

 

"Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:5-6).

 

I think my interpretation of John 3:36 is reasonable.

Okay.    You see both passages pertaining to born-again children of God (who may loose the free gift of justification given to them by the purchase of Christ's blood) - is that accurate?  I see this as pertaining to two groups - believers & unbelievers (aka sons of disobedience).

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

You see both passages pertaining to born-again children of God (who may loose the free gift of justification given to them by the purchase of Christ's blood) - is that accurate? 

The free justification provided by the Cross applies to everyone who has ever lived - believers and non-believers alike.  But that doesn't mean everyone is saved - it means everyone now has the possibility to be saved.  The Cross opened the door to salvation, but walking through the door requires a further justification ... by faith and works (James 2:24). 

Not everyone chooses to walk through the door to salvation provided by Christ's blood.

[Jaydub]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:46 PM, AFlameOfFire said:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And in this next one shows these are doing the following in his name

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied (( in thy name)) and (( in thy name)) have cast out devils and (( in thy name )) done many wonderful works?

These are then told to depart from him on the basis of them working iniquity

Mat 7:23 And then  will I profess unto them, I never (( knew you )) depart from me, (( ye )) that work iniquity.

Paul seemed to understand this when he wrote to them who named the name of Christ to depart from iniquity

2 Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord (( knoweth them )) that are his. And, Let every one (( that nameth )) the name of Christ (( depart )) from iniquity.

So we have the assurance that

... The Lord (( knoweth them )) that are his.

Whereas in the other (who are naming his name while working iniquity) he says,

.... I profess unto them, I never (( knew you ))

And then we have Paul admonishing those who name his name saying

... Let every one (( that nameth )) the name of Christ (( depart )) from iniquity.

Could it be that Paul understood that picture, and that there would be those naming the name of Christ who were working iniquity unto whom Jesus would say

Its a good post and I am in agreement with it, but I have a slightly different take on the Lord Lord. When the name is used twice in a row like that, it is a term of endearment. These people knew the Lord, they thought they were followers of Christ, Christians. They went to church, they prayed and cast out demons, they prophesy , they did many wonders, but the Lord tells them depart from me workers of iniquity.

These people thought they were going to heaven. They thought they knew Jesus.

 These people are not blatant sinners, they think that they are going to heaven, but Jesus tells them plainly I never knew you.

I believe the I never knew you is an answer to the Lord Lord, the endearment, What do you mean you love me, if you love me you would obey my commandments, you would walk away from sin, because you are still living in sin, depart from me

In acts when Paul sees the Lord, The Lord says to him Saul, Saul why do you persecute me. we see the same thing here. The Lord is saying to Paul, I love you why are you persecuting me'

These people who say Lord Lord, are they believers who walked away from faith? or were they never saved, either way I would have no problem with it, but to say that all someone has to do is say the sinners prayer and be saved as a guarantee or a promises is dangerous 

 To answer the opening post I would say, Yes as long as I have Christ as the head of my life and do not walk in sin

 

 

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

You see both passages pertaining to born-again children of God (who may loose the free gift of justification given to them by the purchase of Christ's blood) - is that accurate? 

No one can lose the free justification provided by the Cross ... because it's unconditional; it doesn't require faith or any knowledge of Christ or God or even consciousness.  Even the most evil people who have ever lived were justified by the Cross ... at the very moment they were conceived in their mother's womb.  All the people who end up in hell were similarly justified.

Justification unto salvation, on the other hand, can be lost, bcoz it's conditional - " a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone"  (James 2:24)

[Buzzard3]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

He was already given eternal life as a result of believing in the justification Jesus purchased with His blood - and the Spirit of God came into Him rebirthing him as a child of God.

In that case, please explain the following passage:

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:  he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."  1John 2:3-6

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that passage says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments don't know him, are liars and the truth is not in them.  It also says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments are not "in him".   In short, it says those who don't keep Christ's commandments are not saved.

 

Compare to Matt 7:33 -  

"And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!'"

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") became OUR SIN on the cross and DIED as our SIN, and we beome HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (or rather, God's RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Messiah). Thus, it's not about us! Nothing we did or could do will affect what Yeeshuwa` already did on the cross! ALL of our sins were in the future when He became OUR SIN! This is why the Father poured out His wrath upon His Son!

Everyone who has ever lived or will ever live is justified by the Cross, bcoz that justification is unconditional.  Even the worst God-denying atheist and the most evil Satan-worshpper is thus justified - even if they don't want to be. 

The Cross made it possible for everyone to be saved ... but not everyone will be saved, bcoz salvation requires a further justification which is conditional - ie, by faith and works (James 2:24).  

The justication provided by Cross opened the door to salvation, but not everyone chooses to walk through that door.  Walking through that door can only be done by accepting the gift of faith and abiding in Christ by being justified by faith and works.

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

51 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

Its a good post and I am in agreement with it, but I have a slightly different take on the Lord Lord. When the name is used twice in a row like that, it is a term of endearment. These people knew the Lord, they thought they were followers of Christ, Christians. They went to church, they prayed and cast out demons, they prophesy , they did many wonders, but the Lord tells them depart from me workers of iniquity.

These people thought they were going to heaven. They thought they knew Jesus.

 These people are not blatant sinners, they think that they are going to heaven, but Jesus tells them plainly I never knew you.

I believe the I never knew you is an answer to the Lord Lord, the endearment, What do you mean you love me, if you love me you would obey my commandments, you would walk away from sin, because you are still living in sin, depart from me

In acts when Paul sees the Lord, The Lord says to him Saul, Saul why do you persecute me. we see the same thing here. The Lord is saying to Paul, I love you why are you persecuting me'

These people who say Lord Lord, are they believers who walked away from faith? or were they never saved, either way I would have no problem with it, but to say that all someone has to do is say the sinners prayer and be saved as a guarantee or a promises is dangerous 

 To answer the opening post I would say, Yes as long as I have Christ as the head of my life and do not walk in sin

 

 

Hey Jaydub, thanks for your reply. And you know, "Lord Lord" is probably the least important piece of information in my post. "Lord Lord" just leads us to what things in common are there to compare, a common thread between them. Most of which have to do with working iniquity and not being known by Him and finally to "depart from me" ye that work it. There is a mystery of iniquity that works also and these were working it. The common theme I find is that which has no foundation, and that which is referred to as foolish, and/or unwise,  and departs from him. 

As you shared, the Lord adressing Saul as "Saul Saul" we have him adressing Simon as "Simon Simon", and Martha as "Martha Martha", along with the above adressing the Lord as "Lord Lord" which appears to represent what is yet to be converted. Just shown in pictures of  being named twice but showing two minds in the doubling it. Just as a "double minded" man is unstable in all his ways. Or as James says, Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye "double minded". Theres also doubletongued, but just pictures. So less to do with the words "Lord Lord's" but rather the common theme that can be seen in each one which I don't think any of us would chose to be on the other end of.

So "how" they might mean "Lord Lord" is irrelevant it was not received well by the Lord regardless, and whether they knew him for a little while or they just never knew him, in the end its the same thing, he tells them to depart from him. Thats not where any of us want to be, who puts themselves into that picture and says, "I want to be just like those unto whom the Lord says, "depart from me"? Not me

 

 

[Buzzard3]

7 hours ago, farouk said:

John 3.36 says: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life".

Not might have, not eventually could have, etc., but hath, has now, with assurance which the Holy Spirit can bring, indeed.

What do make of the following passage?

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:  he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."  1John 2:3-6

 

Correct me if wrong, but that passage says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments don't know him, are liars and the truth is not in them.  It also says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments are not "in him".   In short, those who don't keep Christ's commandments are not saved.

[farouk]

12 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Hey Jaydub, thanks for your reply. And you know, "Lord Lord" is probably the least important piece of information in my post. "Lord Lord" just leads us to what things in common are there to compare, a common thread between them. Most of which have to do with working iniquity and not being known by Him and finally to "depart from me" ye that work it. There is a mystery of iniquity that works also and these were working it. The common theme I find is that which has no foundation, and that which is referred to as foolish, and/or unwise,  and departs from him. 

As you shared, the Lord adressing Saul as "Saul Saul" we have him adressing Simon as "Simon Simon", and Martha as "Martha Martha", along with the above adressing the Lord as "Lord Lord" which appears to represent what is yet to be converted. Just shown in pictures of  being named twice but showing two minds in the doubling it. Just as a "double minded" man is unstable in all his ways. Or as James says, Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye "double minded". Theres also doubletongued, but just pictures. So less to do with the words "Lord Lord's" but rather the common theme that can be seen in each one which I don't think any of us would chose to be on the other end of.

So "how" they might mean "Lord Lord" is irrelevant it was not received well by the Lord regardless, and whether they knew him for a little while or they just never knew him, in the end its the same thing, he tells them to depart from him. Thats not where any of us want to be, who puts themselves into that picture and says, "I want to be just like those unto whom the Lord says, "depart from me"? Not me

 

 

@AFlameOfFire I think some the deeper and relevant meaning of repetition can relate to context: Someone has said: 'Context is king'...............

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

3 minutes ago, farouk said:

@AFlameOfFire I think some the deeper and relevant meaning of repetition can relate to context: Someone has said: 'Context is king'...............

Thats why I spin things over and over and over again and intently look at each piece in their contexts and them compare between them and try to find common themes. 

While trying not to impose anything on them.