Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Vine Abider]

12 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

 (Did you know that salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses?)

Let's look at this passage again, Romans 8:23 - 25:  "Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently."

This is a perfect example of our ongoing salvation/sanctification process. We have (past tense) received the Spirit when we were born again in our inmost part (our human spirit): "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit."  Now, as children of God who are born of His Spirit, we are currently being sanctified in our soul (mind, emotion, will) and groaning . . . while we wait for the future redemption of our bodies (sinful flesh) - this redemption of our bodies is the last stage of salvation, and is our future hope as children of God.

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

 

The text (1John 2:3-6) says a believer who doesn't "keep his [Christ's] commandments" ...

(a) does not "know" Christ,

(b) is a "liar", 

(c) the "truth is not in him", 

(d) is not "in him" (not "in" Christ),

(e) does not abide in Christ.

Does that sound like a believer who's on the road to salvation?  It doesn't to me.

You sidestepped my posting. I said that the word "salvation does not appear, nor is implied". This style of making scripture mean something else has been your way in every posting.  It is A "aka" B "aka" C. And in a few short sentences A = C. I'll show you in my next answer.

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

There are several Scriptures that shows it's possible for a believer's sins to ruin his hope of salvation.  For example ...

 

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1Cor 6:9-10)

The verse you quote does not contain salvation. The Kingdom is at stake. Now, why not complete the "aka" and say they are the same.

18 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

"Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."  (Gal 5:19-21)

Again the verse addresses the Kingdom - not salvation. Prince Charles of Great Britain is born royal. His INHERITANCE is the throne of Great Britain. He murders somebody. His may not inherit the throne, but his relationship with the judge SAVES him from jail.

18 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

No one has eternal life until they die, are judged by Christ and then granted admittance to Heaven.  Until then, we have the conditional promise and the hope of eternal life.  (Did you know that salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses?)

Let scripture speak for itself:

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God (1st Jn.5:11–13)

In John 20:17 our Lord Jesus says "my Father and YOUR Father.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That is, the rebirth was counted as having taken place. At birth one is made partaker of the same nature by the Law of kinds in Genesis 1:11-12. So Peter confirms this in 2nd Peter 1:4;

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn 20:30–31)

In His discussion with Nicodemus, our Lord Jesus explain the rebirth and subsequent eternal life by a Type - the brazen serpent of Numbers 21. It does not read "who looked upon the brazen serpent was healed". It does not say "who looked upon the brazen serpent was resurrected in the Good Land. It says TWICE ...

8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Nu 21:8–9)

Life for the Israelite with death coursing in his veins was immediate.

18 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

Did you know that being "born again" refers to baptism?  (John 3:5)

This type of conclusion is a result of your "aka"-strategy. "Born again" is a new and additional birth to qualify one as royalty for the kingdom's sake (Jn.3:3). To "see" the Kingdom one must be resurrected with Christianity (1st Cor.15:23). To "ENTER" the Kingdom you need to be born out of the Holy Spirit and out of water. By being Christ's a Gentile is made eligible for the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham (Gal.3:29, Rom.4:13), and man's part of this Covenant is circumcision. But circumcision may be enough for the Kingdom of Israel, but the whole body must be "killed" as it is unfit for the Kingdom of God (1st Cor.15:50, Rom.6:1-8). Baptism is the "sign" that replaces circumcision (Col.2:10-12).

But if you've never considered this before there is a much easier way to know that Rebirth and Baptism are two different things. They are joined by a conjunction "and" in Mark 16:16. The conjunction "and" is cumulative, copulative and sequential - all three which apply in this verse. So also with Acts 2:38. "Repent" is one thing, "be immersed" and you will receive the Holy Spirit is another thing.

But thank you for your hard, but civilized discussion. It is invigorating.  

[Buzzard3]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:34 PM, Michael37 said:

It is faith that pleases God and provides a conduit for His saving grace.

I agree, but obedience also pleases God: 

 

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."  (John 14:15)

 

"He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him".  (1John 2:3-6)

 

Quote

It is faith that pleases God and provides a conduit for His saving grace.

 

As you know, faith without works is dead (James 2:26), and I think you would agree that dead faith does not please God.   So in order for faith to be pleasing to God, it must be accompanied by works (obedience).

Quote

It is faith that pleases God and provides a conduit for His saving grace.

 Dead faith (faith without works) will not produce grace.   Therefore faith must be accompanied by works if is to act as a conduit for grace.

 

In short, the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone doesn't add up bcoz faith alone is dead (James 2:26) and dead faith doesn't produce grace.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You sidestepped my posting. I said that the word "salvation does not appear, nor is implied".

I'm not sidestepping anything.  Salvation is obviously implied in 1John 2:3-6.    A believer who

(a) does not "know" Christ,

(b) is a "liar", 

(c) the "truth is not in him", 

(d) is not "in him" (not "in" Christ),

(e) does not abide in Christ

is obviously not on the road to salvation.  

 

Faith without works (ie, keeping the commandments) is dead (James 2:26).   Dead faith doesn't save.

 

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected.

By this we may be sure that we are in him:  he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."  (1John 2:3-6).

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The verse you quote does not contain salvation. The Kingdom is at stake.

The words "inherit the kingdom of God" in 1Cor 6:9-10 (and similarly in Gal 5:19-21) refer to the believer being granted eternal life in Heaven after having judged worthy of such by Christ  -  salvation, in other words.  (Said judgement occurs after we die.)

Quote

 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God (1st Jn.5:11–13)

The totality of Scripture makes it obvious that a passage such as that doesn't  mean a believer is issued with an irrevocable ticket to Heaven as soon as he comes to faith.   The writer is in fact referring to a conditional promise, not a fait accompli.

The Scriptures make it clear that our salvation is (a) conditional on remaining faithful and obedient until the end, and (b) dependent on how Christ will judge us after we die.   

Edited October 19, 2023 by Buzzard3

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

I'm not sidestepping anything.  Salvation is obviously implied in 1John 2:3-6.    A believer who

(a) does not "know" Christ,

(b) is a "liar", 

(c) the "truth is not in him", 

(d) is not "in him" (not "in" Christ),

(e) does not abide in Christ

is obviously not on the road to salvation.  

 

Faith without works (ie, keeping the commandments) is dead (James 2:26).   Dead faith doesn't save.

 

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected.

By this we may be sure that we are in him:  he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."  (1John 2:3-6).

 

In the gospels the Lord issued a number of warnings to believers. In the letters many warnings to Christians are published. In Revelation Chapter 2, 3 and 18, warning are issued to the Ekklesia. This defies your theory. A Christian/Believer CAN sin and stil be a Christian/Believer. Weakness, failure and even rebellion do not change a Believers status. Even the BROTHER who commits incest is caused to die (i) because he leavens the Church, and (ii) he could defile his spirit. 1st Corinthians 3 says ALL are building. Our work will be tested by fire. If it is consumed we will suffer a loss. Yet our salvation remains intact.

As to your insistence on "dead faith", have you ever considered that there is faith unto salvation - a GIFT from the "author and finisher of our faith", and there is a ever present faith that governs our daily walk? Is not Peter's faith in Christ being the Son of God another faith than that used for walking on water?

Take the example of a saved man. the work of Christ is applied because he believes. But he refuses to give alms because he has no faith that God will meet his needs later. Will his not giving alms undo Christ's work?

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

The words "inherit the kingdom of God" in 1Cor 6:9-10 (and similarly in Gal 5:19-21) refer to the believer being granted eternal life in Heaven after having judged worthy of such by Christ  -  salvation, in other words.  (Said judgement occurs after we die.)

I shouldn't be moved by this as it is the logical end of your handling of God's Word. But I couldn't help thinking of how much blood was shed by Christians who opposed this - starting before the Reformation. Just read it again.

"Inherit" means "worthy", "heaven" means "eternal life", "judged worthy of eternal life"??? which equals salvation ...

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 say NOTHING about salvation. they say NOTHING about eternal life.  God's council in Genesis 1:26-28 is that man rule the earth and its environs. This thought still persists in Psalm 8. Abraham is promised the LAND for "an everlasting possession". Daniel 2 says that God's Kingdom will "fill the whole earth". Abraham's inheritance is extended by our Lord in Romans 4:13 to "the whole world".

Our Lord Jesus prays for god's kingdom to COME (as He stood on earth), the 12 Apostles rule the 12 Tribes of Israel. Both Peter and Paul seek a "crown", the martyrs are guaranteed a throne and a crown. The grammar is "The Kingdom (out) OF Heaven", not "the Kingdom IN Heaven". Luke 19:17-19 says we are to rule cities, and these must be cities of the heathen because Revelation 2:27, 12:10 ad 19:15 says that we are to rule the Nations. Finally, in Revelation 11 it is the "Kingdoms of THIS WORLD that have become the kingdoms of our God.".

And it is this Kingdom of Jesus Christ and His Father that is set before the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians and you and I as a REWARD for Obedience. But salvation from our sins, salvation from God's wrath, salvation from the Lake of Fire and salvation from our own fallen self was impossible to achieve. It must be achieved by Christ. Here, there is nothing to be found worthy of. Here there is but the Son doing the work and being approved by the Father FOR the purposes of INHERITANCE!

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

The totality of Scripture makes it obvious that a passage such as that doesn't  mean a believer is issued with an irrevocable ticket to Heaven as soon as he comes to faith.   The writer is in fact referring to a conditional promise, not a fait accompli.

Now I'm lost. We discuss scripture from John concerning "HAVING" eternal life. Were is heaven in all this?

[Buzzard3]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn 20:30–31)

Did you notice the word "might" in v.31?  A believer "MIGHT have life through his name."   The word "might" infers uncertainty viz-a-viz salvation - just like the 20+ NT verses that describe salvation as a "hope".

Incidentally, I noticed that you made no attempt to explain why salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty verses in the NT.