Project 144,000

[JohnD]

In Revelation there will be 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus who witness to (apparently Israel).

Could it be incumbent of Christians to help pave the way for these Hebrew evangelists?

The scriptures referred to in the New Testament are the Old Testament. The New Testament hadn't

even been written yet. It is sad how little most Christians know about the Old Testament and how

many prophecies there are about Jesus there. 351 about his first coming in fact.

 

[Know Jah]

Revelation that mentions 144,000 is written in symbolic language. If you compare the names of the tribe in Revelation to the original Jewish tribes in Genesis they are different

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Know Jah said:

Revelation that mentions 144,000 is written in symbolic language. If you compare the names of the tribe in Revelation to the original Jewish tribes in Genesis they are different

Are you talking about the mysterious exclusion of Dan and the inclusion of Manasseh?

[angels4u]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

In Revelation there will be 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus who witness to (apparently Israel).

Could it be incumbent of Christians to help pave the way for these Hebrew evangelists?

The scriptures referred to in the New Testament are the Old Testament. The New Testament hadn't

even been written yet. It is sad how little most Christians know about the Old Testament and how

many prophecies there are about Jesus there. 351 about his first coming in fact.

 

I posted a slightly different thread who the 144.000 are who  will be preaching during the tribulation...

[Jaydub]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:41 AM, JohnD said:

In Revelation there will be 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus who witness to (apparently Israel).

Could it be incumbent of Christians to help pave the way for these Hebrew evangelists?

The scriptures referred to in the New Testament are the Old Testament. The New Testament hadn't

even been written yet. It is sad how little most Christians know about the Old Testament and how

many prophecies there are about Jesus there. 351 about his first coming in fact.

What happens to Christians grafted in, if we are grafted into Israel what tribes are we grafted into?

[FJK]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:41 AM, JohnD said:

many prophecies there are about Jesus there. 351 about his first coming in fact.

Here's a question that just popped into my mind as I read that (I'm not disagreeing with it):  Are there any prophecies in the OT that prophecy there will be a second coming as well as a first or is that entirely within the NT with no OT support for it?

Just curious.

[JohnD]

24 minutes ago, FJK said:

Here's a question that just popped into my mind as I read that (I'm not disagreeing with it):  Are there any prophecies in the OT that prophecy there will be a second coming as well as a first or is that entirely within the NT with no OT support for it?

Just curious.

Zechariah 14:4 describes the event without calling it the second coming / return.

Psalm 118:25-26 also describes what instigates that return.

A prophetic search for hints and clues to things like the three days Jesus would be in the heart of the earth (paying attention to what is said in passages that mention "three days") is also applicable for "a second time" in the Old Testament. Some hint / aspect is prophetically mentioned.

Usually "the Word of the LORD came a second time..."

Also the yet unfulfilled Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament (which apply to the same resurrected Messiah but without the understanding that he would be resurrected caused some to conclude there would be two messiahs Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph) but in fact it is one and the same Messiah Jesus slain for our sins raised to everlasting life. His coming as Judge for example the second time as opposed to his coming as a lamb the first time (not snuffing out a smoldering wick etc).

It's been some time (and a couple computers ago) since I've done a study about these but a good search engine will provide the scripture references.

[JohnD]

40 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

What happens to Christians grafted in, if we are grafted into Israel what tribes are we grafted into?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 states specifically the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had undergone several transformations with regard to tribe.

At the time of Jeremiah, the division was the priestly tribe (Levi), and the Northern kingdom (Israel) and the Southern

Kingdom (Judah) later Samaria to the north and Judea to the south.

Since then the prominence of the tribe of Judah not only preeminent over the tribes of the south but to refer to the children 

of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob as Jews / Jewish (from the name Judah).

I do not believe the teachings of those who hold to Anglo-Israeli-ism are correct (usually asserting that Christians are from Manasseh

or Ephraim). But that we are grafted in {spiritually} into the root which is Israel.

Bear in mind also that Israel (yish sarar elohiym = he is Prince of God) is another name / title of Messiah Yeshua Jesus. The Spirit led me some years

ago to this point while embroiled in a debate with a Rabbi over Isaiah 53 being about the suffering servant Israel.

Which I granted, but then define who and what Israel is (for there are several Israels: Jacob, the Northern Kingdom, the people of Israel, and the modern State...

and the Prince of God the Messiah Jesus). ← and Isaiah 52:13-53:12 can only refer to the Messiah as the individual who suffers for the people of God.

The Rabbi was hard pressed to reason why the Jewish people (if that's who the suffering servant is) would suffer for Gentiles...

I would answer your question that we are simply grafted into Spirit Israel.

We are not by way of our faith transformed from gentile-born to physical Israel or physical Jews.

We are not granted any inheritance in this world, for our Kingdom is heaven and our Jerusalem is from above (Galatians 4).

Paul addresses the distinction between physical Jews and Spirit Jews in Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6. 

Ephesians 2:14ff also gives us details.

But be prepared for resistance from all sides when you see this in scripture.

Jewish pride and Gentile prejudice cloud their minds.

Oh well. {Sigh}

[Jaydub]

On 12/17/2023 at 6:31 AM, JohnD said:

I would answer your question that we are simply grafted into Spirit Israel.

I am just wanting to understand before I go further. I am I correct in saying that all believers Jew and gentile are spiritual Israel. A believing Jew is also a part of spiritual Israel

In exodus when someone committed certain sins, God would tell mosses, they are to be cut off from the people. Cut off from Israel, because of certain sin they were cut off, no longer part of Israel, even though that was their heritage. They were physically a Jew or Israeli, but they were spiritually dead, because they no longer belonged to Gods family and were not able to get atonement for there sins. Who are these people who were cut off? Am I wrong to say that even then there was a physical Israel and a spiritual one

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, Jaydub said:

I am just wanting to understand before I go further. I am I correct in saying that all believers Jew and gentile are spiritual Israel. A believing Jew is also a part of spiritual Israel

In exodus when someone committed certain sins, God would tell mosses, they are to be cut off from the people. Cut off from Israel, because of certain sin they were cut off, no longer part of Israel, even though that was their heritage. They were physically a Jew or Israeli, but they were spiritually dead, because they no longer belonged to Gods family and were not able to get atonement for there sins. Who are these people who were cut off? Am I wrong to say that even then there was a physical Israel and a spiritual one

You are correct. This is the distinction Paul was driving at in:

Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 11:26 (KJV)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

But they are not all Israel which are of Israel... only those (Jew and Gentile) who through faith in the Jewish Messiah Jesus are all Israel. ← Spirit Israel.

Romans 2:28–29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Spiritual circumcision is not unique to males, btw.