Questions for evolution believers

[The Barbarian]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:14 AM, RV_Wizard said:

Premise; DNA is considered the blueprint for life.  Commonalities in DNA are used to claim common descent. 

And we know that is true, because we can test that idea with organisms of known descent.

On 11/26/2023 at 8:14 AM, RV_Wizard said:

Question; if different life forms were created in the same environment at the same time using the same elements and the same blueprint for life by the same Creator, wouldn't there necessarily be similarities in the DNA?

If so, bats would have DNA more similar to birds than to horses.    But they don't.   Because DNA shows common descent, mammals all have genes more like each other than they do like birds.  

On 11/26/2023 at 8:14 AM, RV_Wizard said:

Couldn't the same arguments for common descent indicate a common Creator? 

It shows a common Creator who used evolution to create new kinds of living things.  

On 11/26/2023 at 8:14 AM, RV_Wizard said:

How would animals with similar characteristics NOT have similarities in their DNA for those characteristics?

Whales and sharks, for example.   But sharks are closer to sea horses, and whales are closer to mice than whales are close to sharks.   "Looks like" is a misleading principle.   You're confusing homology (common descent) with analogy (similar structures).   

[The Barbarian]

17 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Wouldn't a terrorist be thought of as a great martyr for blowing himself up to kill the enemies of Allah? 

Religious people have done horrible things in God's name.   Not just Muslims.    Many people claiming to be Christians tortured and killed people for not agreeing with them on some theological point or another.   All major branches of Christianity have had such people acting in God's name.

 

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:35 PM, The Barbarian said:

If so, bats would have DNA more similar to birds than to horses.

Why would they?  They are flying mammals.

That, by the way, is a modern classification.  In early days they would be called fowl, because they fly.  Locusts, also, but they are insects.  Things weren't divided and classified then as they are now.

It's like the argument that the Bible uses a formula similar to pi but without the decimals.  However, decimals didn't exist for centuries after.  Things were not always as they are now.

On 12/14/2023 at 11:35 PM, The Barbarian said:

It shows a common Creator who used evolution to create new kinds of living things.

Such a Creator would not lie about the manner of His creation or the time frame of it.  Genesis 1 disproves evolution, Exodus 20:11 disproves long ages.

On 12/14/2023 at 11:35 PM, The Barbarian said:

Whales and sharks, for example.   But sharks are closer to sea horses, and whales are closer to mice than whales are close to sharks.  

Whales are mammals and sharks are fish.  Those who lived prior to such distinctions being made might even call a whale a "great fish."  Of course, nobody knows what actually swallowed Jonah.  In all likelihood, it's gone extinct.

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:38 PM, The Barbarian said:

Religious people have done horrible things in God's name.   Not just Muslims.  

Much evil is committed in the name of God, but evil is commanded in the name of Allah.  That's why Islam is a satanic religion.  Remember, God will not hold him guiltless who uses His name in vain.  That means doing evil in the name of God.  So Christianity condemns the evil, Islam offers 72 virgins as a reward for it.

[The Barbarian]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Much evil is committed in the name of God, but evil is commanded in the name of Allah.  That's why Islam is a satanic religion.

Ironically, radical Muslims say the same thing about Christianity.    It's how atrocities against each other are justified.    

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

So Christianity condemns the evil, Islam offers 72 virgins as a reward for it.

Our own OT is often used that way by haters among Muslims against us.    

    

[The Barbarian]

If so, bats would have DNA more similar to birds than to horses.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Why would they?

"Common creator" instead of common descent.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

They are flying mammals.

Yep.   Descended from mammals, not from birds.   Hence genetically showing common descent with other mammals.    And we know that's true, because we can test the idea on organisms of known descent.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That, by the way, is a modern classification. 

Yes.   Classified by descent.   The Bible classifies organisms by function.   Hence bats were considered birds and whales considered to be fish.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It's like the argument that the Bible uses a formula similar to pi but without the decimals.  However, decimals didn't exist for centuries after. 

Decimals are not required.     Actually, a Babylonian source used 3 and 1/8th for it.   (3.125 in decimals)   Archimedes got a much more accurate calculation of pi without using decimals.

Genetics shows a common Creator who used evolution to create new kinds of living things.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Such a Creator would not lie about the manner of His creation or the time frame of it. 

He didn't.   As you learned earlier, scripture is entirely consistent with evolution.   Your particular interpretation of scripture is not, but that's a different issue.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Whales are mammals and sharks are fish. 

Right.   The Bible isn't wrong to say that bats are birds, because they were using a different classification than we use.   "Mammals" or "chondrichthyes" have no meaning in the Biblical classification which is based on function rather than ancestry.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Of course, nobody knows what actually swallowed Jonah. 

And it doesn't matter.   Those who think one's opinion of evolution is a critical issue in Christian faith are missing the entire point of God's word to us.

 

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Ironically, radical Muslims say the same thing about Christianity.    It's how atrocities against each other are justified.       

There is no commonality.  The "prophet" of Islam was a thief, murderer, rapist and human trafficker who married a six year old when he was 52.  These things are ALL confirmed in the Quran.  Jesus is the son of God who came to earth born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and sacrificed Himself for the salvation of man.  He taught love, peace and forgiveness.

If you were more familiar with the Old Testament, you would realize that the Jews were hated by the rest of the world and were constantly at war to protect themselves.  When they followed God's laws they were victorious.  When they did not they were subjugated.  Since the Jews were God's chosen people, their enemies were God's enemies.

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Descended from mammals, not from birds.

Created with the characteristics of mammals but having flight so they can do what they were designed to do; eat flying bugs.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Classified by descent.

Wrong.  They are classified by their physical characteristics.  Descent is a theory of origins.  It's not observational science.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The Bible classifies organisms by function.   Hence bats were considered birds and whales considered to be fish.

Correct.  The study of biology and the classification came later.  That's why birds, bats and locusts are all called fowl; and why those who don't know this talk about "six legged birds" to try and show inaccuracies.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Genetics shows a common Creator...

Better to quit while you're still accurate.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

...scripture is entirely consistent with evolution.

Only if you cut and past phrases out of context without reading the entire passage... which is the sum total of your Biblical quotes.

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Those who think one's opinion of evolution is a critical issue in Christian faith are missing the entire point of God's word to us.

Evolution aside, one should only teach what is written and avoid that which is not.  God created the heavens, the earth, trees bearing fruit, the seas teaming with fish, multitudes of birds in the air and man in six days.  That's what the Bible says.  After trying for years to justify long ages within the Bible, I finally realized that everything was created in its mature state.  Every Bible-believing theologian I have known personally believes the same thing.  Those who do not always find other things in the Bible to disagree with.

[FJK]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Those who do not always find other things in the Bible to disagree with.

And someday they will do that before God, because it is required that each of us die and then face his Judgment before God.

So it is always wise to make your statements as if you are making them to God, speaking them to God, because you will be someday and on that day the doctrines of men will become nothing but foolishness.

Much can be discussed about this but rarely is in anything other than as a simple concept to agree with, not as something we actually practice in all of our life's activities or how go about doing it.

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Created with the characteristics of mammals but having flight so they can do what they were designed to do; eat flying bugs.

You'll admit that much, which is fine.  You just don't approve of the way He created them.   BTW, not all of them "eat flying bugs."   Vampire bats and fruit bats, for example.    Bats have evolved to a lot of different niches.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Classified by descent.

 

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Wrong.  They are classified by their physical characteristics. 

No.  Classification by physical characteristics is how the Bible classes bats as birds.    Analogy does not indicate common descent; homology does.

As you learned earlier, scripture is entirely consistent with evolution.   Your particular interpretation of scripture is not, but that's a different issue.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Evolution aside, one should only teach what is written and avoid that which is not. 

That is where YE creationists slip into error.   They change figurative things to literal history, and ignore things they don't like.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Those who do not always find other things in the Bible to disagree with.

It's always good to retain the humility to remember that one is not God.    And given that Bible-believing Christians differ on what the Bible says in this respect, we should always remember that we can be wrong.

Fortunately, God doesn't care what you think of evolution.    YE creationists are no less Christian than the rest of us, so long as they don't make an idol of their beliefs.