"Hell" Etymology & Thoughts

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

In the scriptures we read that Jesus was raised from the place of the dead. That's what Jesus said that as Jonas spent three days in the in that great whale so the son of man will spend three days in the heart of the earth. Jesus also said that he has the Keys of Death and Hades and that he also has the key of David in Revelation. Jesus he told us where he went after his death on the Cross. If anyone wants to know where is Hades he must follow Jesus after his death on the Cross. Jesus also said that he descended in the lowest parts of the earth. 

Jesus died for all, for the forgiveness of sins of all people including those who had died before him. 

All that has zero to do with this Universe being set ablaze after the 1000 year reign. Hades means THE GRAVE. So, Jesus was in the Grave and arose from the grave meaning he had victory over the grave (Hades) and Death. It says Jesus went to preach to the prisoners, there is a holding place for the Faithful Jews called the Bosom of Abraham, and a Great Gulf between there and a holding place for the wicked. But no one gets judged until they get raised and we know the 2nd Resurrection happens 1000 years after the Kingdom Age starts. 

[enoob57]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:16 PM, Marathoner said:

We encounter issues with the presumption that all men and women live eternally. The issue is simple: if all men and women live eternally, then why does the Son of God reward those who love Him with eternal life? (John 10:27-28)

If we already lived eternally, then this gift would be moot. 

The concept of eternal life is being with Jesus for He has proclaimed
John 14:6 (KJV)[6]
saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Existence without Jesus will be hell or eternal death... it is why the final judgment is called the second death
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Simply if death is cessation of existence how could you have a second one?

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

 

Simply if death is cessation of existence how could you have a second one?

 

 

One death physical - the other spiritual?

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

One death physical - the other spiritual?

This might be a reasonable point if not for the fact we are speaking of cessation of existence and not nature of death .... As Lazarus and the rich man show forth physical realities even though separated from body... However, Spiritual death (as separated from God) was immediate both in thought and action... naked was wrong in their now fallen minds and hiding from God was the action resulting...
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
As this was the first death ... but he continued on many more years and as we see the account of Lazarus we see physical realities still in play ... thirst plus torment...

[WilliamL]

On 11/18/2023 at 9:56 PM, Revelation Man said:

Words morph, or get mistranslated and morph. Just like Departure being changed by the KJV bible to falling away. Its really APO (Away from) and Hestemi(Standing) so its away from a standing,

and that standing is the church on earth, which departs or is gathered unto Christ. 

You are correct through the first three lines. Then you go adding your own belief in the last section: that the Church departs from the earth. Not, departs from the faith.

The only other use of the noun apostasia in the Bible is in Acts 21:21 --

And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews which are among the Gentiles apostasia from Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs...

-- where the term clearly means apostasy in the religious sense. The same meaning applies to 2 Thes. 2:3.

The departure from earth cannot be meant, because the passage in its full context clearly teaches that "the Parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2:1) will not come (:3) until 'the Lord will destroy the Lawless One with the brightness of His Parousia." Meaning that the Lawless On/Son of Perdition must come before the Parousia and its consequent rapture, not after it.

[Revelation Man]

50 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You are correct through the first three lines. Then you go adding your own belief in the last section: that the Church departs from the earth. Not, departs from the faith.

 

No I don't, you buy into the false narrative that the Church Departs from the Faith. Where? Show it to me, you can't but guess what, I can show you where the passage speaks about the Church DEPARTING !!

 

The Man of Lawlessness (The NIV)

2 Thess. 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion(So, why does it say Rebellion here or Apostacy from the Faith? Because they bought into the same UNTRUTH that the KJV put forth in 1611)  occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Just because people get hoodwinked doesn't mean we have to buy in.

So is it a FALLING AWAY from the Faith? No, its a DEPARTURE via the Gathering unto Christ Jesus, as the first verse states, CONCERNING the Gathering unto Christ, not CONCERNING the Rebellion or Falling Away from the Faith, it is not there and never was my friend. 

Find any verse that points to FAITH, its not there. And you know it. But it defeats you guys thesis, so you can not admit it. I prefer knowing the facts.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

-----------------

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The departure from earth cannot be meant, because the passage in its full context clearly teaches that "the Parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2:1) will not come (:3) until 'the Lord will destroy the Lawless One with the brightness of His Parousia." Meaning that the Lawless On/Son of Perdition must come before the Parousia and its consequent rapture, not after it.

No, it states the DOTL (God's Wrath) that starts in the middle of the week will not come until the DEPARTURE and the Man of Sin is REVEALED. He makes the Covenant at the front end of the 70th week. So, BOTH the Departure of the Church AND the Man of Sin will come before the DOTL, and what were the Thessalonians fearing? That they were in God's Wrath, you get all twisted up on the meaning brother.

[WilliamL]

42 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No I don't, you buy into the false narrative that the Church Departs from the Faith. Where? Show it to me, you can't but guess what, I can show you where the passage speaks about the Church DEPARTING !!

 

The Man of Lawlessness (The NIV)

2 Thess. 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion(So, why does it say Rebellion here or Apostacy from the Faith? Because they bought into the same UNTRUTH that the KJV put forth in 1611)  occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Just because people get hoodwinked doesn't mean we have to buy in.

So is it a FALLING AWAY from the Faith? No, its a DEPARTURE via the Gathering unto Christ Jesus, as the first verse states, CONCERNING the Gathering unto Christ, not CONCERNING the Rebellion or Falling Away from the Faith, it is not there and never was my friend. 

Find any verse that points to FAITH, its not there. And you know it. But it defeats you guys thesis, so you can not admit it. I prefer knowing the facts.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

-----------------

No, it states the DOTL (God's Wrath) that starts in the middle of the week will not come until the DEPARTURE and the Man of Sin is REVEALED. He makes the Covenant at the front end of the 70th week. So, BOTH the Departure of the Church AND the Man of Sin will come before the DOTL, and what were the Thessalonians fearing? That they were in God's Wrath, you get all twisted up on the meaning brother.

By your total ignoring of the word Parousia in verses 1 and 8, you have missed the entire context and meaning of the passage. So all you "show" me is a falsehood.

For those of you who want to learn the truth of the matter, here is a thorough examination of the use of the term Parousia in the New Testament, and what it definitely means with respect to the time of the rapture of the Church:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by WilliamL

[Dennis1209]

41 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

By your total ignoring of the word Parousia in verses 1 and 8, you have missed the entire context and meaning of the passage. So all you "show" me is a falsehood.

For those of you who want to learn the truth of the matter, here is a thorough examination of the use of the term Parousia in the New Testament, and what it definitely means with respect to the time of the rapture of the Church:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

Well, William, at least thus far, everyone agrees that there will be a harpazo. It boils down to the age-old question of the timing.

Brilliant scholars and theologians have postulated and reasoned this question for centuries, with individuals coming to their own exegesis and personal beliefs.  

I hope a secondary timing issue does not make us less Christian, divisive, or knowledgeable in the scriptures.

[Your closest friendnt]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Well, William, at least thus far, everyone agrees that there will be a harpazo. It boils down to the age-old question of the timing.

Brilliant scholars and theologians have postulated and reasoned this question for centuries, with individuals coming to their own exegesis and personal beliefs.  

I hope a secondary timing issue does not make us less Christian, divisive, or knowledgeable in the scriptures.

We have learned that according to the scriptures that cannot happen for many reasons. One of them is that God has appointed that everyone has to die first before he appears before the Judgement seat of Jesus Christ. And one of the reasons is that everyone who appears before Jesus Christ and did not believe, will believe at that time but that does not count because he believed after his death. 

Jesus Christ said to his disciples that everyone has to die first and like him everyone has to be tested till the end of his life while in this earthen vessels. 

And this is why people who commit suicide are saved if they died believing that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins.  

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

By your total ignoring of the word Parousia in verses 1 and 8, you have missed the entire context and meaning of the passage. So all you "show" me is a falsehood.

 

Its the Rapture of the Church, you can call it anything you want to. I understand the Rapture happens 7 yeas before the 2nd Advent starts. Again, the same ole mistake is made by those who do not understand the Pre Trib. Rapture. Its a never ending catch 22 for you it seems. 

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

For those of you who want to learn the truth of the matter, here is a thorough examination of the use of the term Parousia in the New Testament, and what it definitely means with respect to the time of the rapture of the Church:

 

We can call it concrete of you want to, I do not miss anything, I understand where your mistake comes from brother. I have only been doing this four 40 some odd years, and I have seen it all. 

The Rapture is Pre Trib, the 2nd Advent comes 7 years later. Its not a mistake it is just a different understanding, and on this I am correct, or I wouldn't repeat it because one thing I do, do, is I allow the holy spirit to correct me. I have been repeating this 35 years, and he has never once corrected me.

But one thing I am not, is confused brother. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Revelation Man