Paul prophesied the falling away of the end times church, is that happening ?

[tatwo]

15 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Isnt 2 Thes 2:3 says falling away first then the man of sin is revealed after it ?

Let’s look…first it says…the “coming of our Lord Yahshua Christ” will not happen “unless the apostasy comes first.” Of course…those who are falling away are falling away from Him…there was nothing to fall away from until the Lord poured out His Holy Spirit upon humanity…the devils opposition to that…started immediately. That is where it has a beginning...that the “lawless ones appearance” kicks off.

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first..." (2Th 2:1-3 NASB)

The “apostasy or falling away” necessitates something to “fall away from”…meaning that one was connected to or a part of something (the kingdom of God in this case) that they separate or depart from…that’s the work of the deception of the lawless one. Paul mentions that at the time…in the day of his writing in vs. 7 “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work” John mentions similar of the antichrist in 1 John 2.

So plainly it states that work of the lawless one was happening back then. It also leads one to understand that it was the “work” of the lawless one that brings on the falling away....hello?

This apostasy will continue until the Lord comes back. In between those two events…“the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God”...to the deceived and delusional. This is a process that works out over the time in between the lawless ones initial appearance…and his destruction at the coming of the Lord.

We can see that this is a continuous process from its inception to its destruction. The process of the lawless ones ascent to power and authority as described by Paul here in 2^nd Thessalonians 2…“the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”

This process has been going on for nearly 2000 years and is governed or metered from its beginning via the restraint of the Holy Spirit. As time passes from the initiation of lawlessness to its climax of displaying himself as being God…the restraint of the Holy Spirit is incrementally relaxed until He simply gives the lawless one what looks like an unrestrained rule. That should open some eyes around here.

So the answer to your question R. Hartono is…as I see it presented in scripture…no…it is the appearance of the lawless one that kicks off or initiates the falling away.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

So the answer to your question R. Hartono is…as I see it presented in scripture…no…it is the appearance of the lawless one that kicks off or initiates the falling away.

It does not say "the appearance" of the lawless one in 2Thesslaonians2:4, but him being "revealed" as the lawless one.    Implying up to that point of committing the act of sitting in the temple,claiming to have achieved God-hood,  he will not be considered to be the lawless one. 

Man of sin in the kjv.

The great falling away from believing Jesus is the messiah, will be because that person will thought-to-be the messiah instead.

It does not happen until after the Gog/Magog event.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

The revealing of the man of sin will come as a shock and surprise to them who will be thinking he is the messiah up to that point.

Edited December 5, 2023 by douggg

[WilliamL]

Paul prophesied the falling away of the end times church, is that happening ?

Like duh, of course it's happening. It is not just falling away, it is also dis-integrating. Anyone of years would have to be blind not to see it.

On 12/3/2023 at 4:51 PM, Marilyn C said:

I agree that there is much error and false doctrine however it is in man`s organized system, and that is NOT the Church the Body of Christ. The Lord does not get a bad report card, but is doing an amazing work bringing His Body to maturity in Him before He catches it away. 

Jesus clearly warned the churches of Rev. 2-3 about their propensities to fall away, and/or become lukewarm and unprofitable in the faith. These churches were founded and still exist under Christ's organization, via the seven spirits of His hand. The principle of cutting away sinful body parts (including mouth-spewing them out) to save the rest applies here also.

[tatwo]

12 hours ago, douggg said:

It does not say "the appearance" of the lawless one in 2Thesslaonians2:4, but him being "revealed" as the lawless one.    Implying up to that point of committing the act of sitting in the temple,claiming to have achieved God-hood,  he will not be considered to be the lawless one. 

Man of sin in the kjv.

The great falling away from believing Jesus is the messiah, will be because that person will thought-to-be the messiah instead.

It does not happen until after the Gog/Magog event.

Ok so you don’t like the word “appearance”…”revealed” it is douggg…and there is a difference I’ll give you that. The difference here for you and me I suspect is in perspective…what is in your understanding about the revealing of this “man of sin” and what is in my understanding concerning the revealing of this “man of sin”…differs due to perspective.

You appear to be referring to…a literal physical “man” or human that in a “future sense?” is only then...to be revealed for who he is…once he is sitting in a literal physical “temple” claiming to have achieved “God-hood”…and until then…his true identity is veiled.

I think I get that douggg…this is a doctrine or belief…I have encountered before. Over time I have come to understand that perhaps this “physical event” you speak of may actually occur as you have stated here?

With that being said…why would Paul speak of the “mysterious works - iniquity” of this “man of sin – lawless one” as taking place in his day…two thousand years or there about…before he is…as you teach…physically revealed in a physical temple?

Which then...if I follow your understanding as communicated here…initializes the “great falling away”…may I ask what biblical translation it is that defines or refers to “apostasy” as the “great falling away?”

Tatwo...:)

[douggg]

57 minutes ago, tatwo said:

With that being said…why would Paul speak of the “mysterious works - iniquity” of this “man of sin – lawless one” as taking place in his day…two thousand years or there about…before he is…as you teach…physically revealed in a physical temple?

Which then...if I follow your understanding as communicated here…initializes the “great falling away”…may I ask what biblical translation it is that defines or refers to “apostasy” as the “great falling away?”

Because when that person becomes the King of Israel thought-to-be-messiah, he will speak against Jesus being the messiah and also against Jesus being the Son of God.

That same spirit - attitude if you will - is what some in John's day were already beginning to exhibit when they departed from being a Christian to being a critic of Jesus as being the Son of God, i.e. critic of the Father and Son relationship, of Jesus coming out from the Father to create all things.

--------------------------------------------------

Of course there have been many such person all down through history as you have pointed out.      One recent example would be Yusuf Estes who once was a preacher, but left Christianity to become a Muslim.    He has many videos on You Tube.    That person exhibits the spirit of Antichrist.

Edited December 5, 2023 by douggg

[Stewardofthemystery]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

https://harbingersdaily.com/be-on-guard-the-end-times-church-is-one-inundated-with-apostasy/ 

 

 

Here is what has been revealed to me concerning the falling away from the faith…..

We are warned in 1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, anddoctrines of devils;”

Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 

The falling away from the faith above mentioned by Paul has to do with the saints of God being overcome by all the lies and deception of the Devil by way of his spirit, which is the spirit of a lie.

This spirit of a lie is also shown as the false prophet spirit which works in many deceivers. As many false prophets and teachers were foretold to come into the world like a swarm of locusts from hell, and darken the Light of the Truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul was playing off the words of Jesus when he referred to “that man” and the “son of perdition” in the above verse. But this is not to be misunderstood as a being single individual man yet to come in the future like Judas, but rather it speaks of the sin nature in man, and 7 other wicked spirits (mystery of iniquity) being embraced by the world, and also embraced by many in the man-made church system.

These 7 seducing spirits and doctrines of devils would enter into the man-made church system, thereby causing many to play the Harlot with the ways of the world; and thereby also making them desolate of good works, and naked by sin. 

Notice how Jesus refers to a whole "wicked generation" as “a man” and “ that man” (like Paul said) here in Matthew 12:43-45 

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of "a man", he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that manis worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this "wicked generation.”

This is “the mystery of iniquity,”and of the revealing of “that man of sin” by the falling away from the faith.

Now notice the wording Jesus used showing the “last state of that man” referring to a whole “wicked generation”compared to Peters words concerning this same "falling away" in 2 Peter 2:20-22

“For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

Many of the saints being overcome is also shown here in Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and "to overcome them": and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

So this spirit of deception and lies would also overcome many of the saints as is also confirmed here in Daniel 7:21 “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;”

That horn is the tail of the red Dragon, which speaks of the spirit of a lie working in all the false prophets of the world. This spirit of a lie was foretold to practice and prosper in the world, and also cast the truth and also some of the host of heaven to the ground. 

So was Paul talking about a single man in 2 Thess. or a single "evil spirit" and also 7 other "seducing spirits" 
working in a whole “wicked generation”like Jesus said?

Well if you read the whole chapter in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 you will see this truth is shown…“And then shall "that Wicked" be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after "the working of Satan" with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness "in them" that perish; because "they" received not the love of the truth, that "they" might be saved. And for this cause God shall send "them" strong delusion, that "they" should believe a lie: 12 That "they all" might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 

Clearly Paul was talking about more than one single individual man in the above verses using words like “in them, them, they, and they all.”

But what about the term “son of perdition?”

It speaks of the same thing, as was first shown in Judas (one who broke bread at the Lords table) who also "sold out the Truth" for a pocket full of silver. Just as the firstborn Esau "sold his birth right inheritance" for some red pottage.(symbolizing sin) 

Look at what Peter had to say about the “son of perdition.”

Peter goes on to quote scripture concerning Judas, (son of perdition) in the Psalms Acts 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.”
 

Now, in order to confirm my point about there being more than one “son of perdition” or son who goes into destruction, let’s look at the Psalms from where Peter was drawing this from.

In Psalm 69 we see this same language used in verse Psalm 69:25 “Let "their" habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in "their" tents.”

Notice the Psalm says“their” as in more than one. As a matter of fact, if you read the whole Psalm the Lord is speaking of many, like in verse 4 the Lord says “they that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head”.

The Lord repeatedly uses the words “they their, and them”, in the Psalm just as Paul also used the same language in 2 Thess 2:10-12 describing the man of sin, (lawlessness) and son of perdition.

Now let’s confirm the same message in another Psalm which speaks of what Peter quoted also in Psalm 109:8 “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.”

Now that sounds more like what Peter was quoting from when he said in Acts 1:20 “Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take” Which this does speak specifically about the single man Judas. (Which has already been fulfilled as Jesus noted in John 17:12.)

But let’s now look at that Psalm in the greater context of what is being said.

Psalm 109:1-13 “Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; 
2 For the mouth of “the wicked”and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue. 3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.6 Set thou a “wicked man”over him: and let “Satan”stand at his right hand.7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer 
become sin.8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let “them”seek their bread also out of their desolate places.11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following "let their name be blotted out.”( more than one)

So though him was referring to the single man Judas in this Psalm, as both Jesus and Peter confirmed. I believe it is very clear that Paul was not talking about a single man yet to come, but rather a whole “wicked generation”who would fall away from following after the Truth in Christ, and also go into perdition just like Judas.

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Because when that person becomes the King of Israel thought-to-be-messiah, he will speak against Jesus being the messiah and also against Jesus being the Son of God.

That same spirit - attitude if you will - is what some in John's day were already beginning to exhibit when they departed from being a Christian to being a critic of Jesus as being the Son of God, i.e. critic of the Father and Son relationship, of Jesus coming out from the Father to create all things.

When this “person” becomes the king of Israel their…“pseudo messiah”…is when the “apostasy” takes place…as you see it douggg? Of course you portraying this as yet future…and…you are also agreeing that the spirit of “antichrist” in John’s day was already “beginning to exhibit” causing a departure from the faith 2000 years ago?

Friend…douggg…bro…it appears to me…that you have contradicted yourself once again…perhaps?

If the apostasy…falling away…is characterized by you as

·         “already beginning to exhibit when they departed from being a Christian to being a critic of Jesus as being the Son of God”…in the first century…as I too noted.

·         How is it that you can say also “Implying up to that point of committing the act of sitting in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood,  he will not be considered to be the lawless one.”

In the atitude of “first the natural and then the spiritual and flesh begets flesh Spirit begets spirit”…it almost looks like you are saying this “person - man” who achieves “god-hood”…who sits in a physical temple is alive for 2000 years and is then “revealed” as the lawless one who initiates the falling away?

Is that what you are trying to teach me…douggg?

[douggg]

33 minutes ago, tatwo said:

In the atitude of “first the natural and then the spiritual and flesh begets flesh Spirit begets spirit”…it almost looks like you are saying this “person - man” who achieves “god-hood”…who sits in a physical temple is alive for 2000 years and is then “revealed” as the lawless one who initiates the falling away?

Is that what you are trying to teach me…douggg?

No.    Here is a timeline chart I made of the 7 year 70th week.    It contains the events of the person becoming the Antichrist, and thereby beginning a false messianic age of peace and safety - during which time, many Christians will fall away from believing Jesus is the messiah.

Then the Antichrist will commit the Transgression of Desolation (ToD) act of 2Thesslanonians2:4, revealing himself to be the man of sin and not the messiah after all.

Just follow the red line, starting from the upper left corner to lower right corner.   I put the scriptural references beside each event.

 

 

[tatwo]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Just follow the red line, starting from the upper left corner to lower right corner.   I put the scriptural references beside each event.

Wow...that is quite a drawing...I downloaded it...how long did it take you to put this together? May I ask when you made it? Are you absolutely dead set with this as it is or open for discussion?

Tatwo...:)