Daniel chapter 2 (no not Revelation) by verse

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, douggg said:

Regarding the little horn and the ten kings in Daniel 7, Daniel is speaking of the time of the end time/times/half time persecution of the saints.    Until the dominion of the little horn is taken away as God executes judgment on him.

Yes, but he has been waging war against God since 500 AD. His Word has been on the earth for 3500 years and was “given” into his (little horns) hands when he came to power. He would corrupt His Word, His people, His church, and even speak pompous words against God Himself. He will continue until the end of time and be destroyed by God. 

[douggg]

7 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Yes, and they speak to the same thing each time… they are not happening AT THE END OF TIME, they will end at the end of time. 

"end of time" is not an expression found in Daniel.    Time of the end is, in Daniel 8:17.

The expression a time/times/half time is a way of saying nominally 3 1/2 years.

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, douggg said:

The context of Daniel 7:24-27 is time of the end, in the latter days, latter years - when the time/times/half time of Daniel 7:25 will take place.

You are talking 1600 years to present, since the pope/papacy being the little horn in your interpretation, coming to power in 457AD.     

Obviously, 1600 years is not the time/times/half time of Daniel 7:25. 

 

Read my last response. The Word of God was given to Moses 3500 years ago. The little horn will be given control or appropriate His Word UNTIL the end of time. 
The time, times and 1/2 time, applies to His Word not to the length of time the little horn will appropriate it. 

[douggg]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Read my last response. The Word of God was given to Moses 3500 years ago. The little horn will be given control or appropriate His Word UNTIL the end of time. 
The time, times and 1/2 time, applies to His Word not to the length of time the little horn will appropriate it. 

The time/times/half time is how long the little horn will persecute the saints.

It is not how long ago the Word of God was given to Moses.

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

"end of time" is not an expression found in Daniel.    Time of the end is, in Daniel 8:17.

The expression a time/times/half time is a nominal way of saying 3 1/2 years.

No it is not. The subject matter is God’s Word. It has been given to mankind at Mt. Sinai 3500 years ago. 
 

If the term “end of time” is not found in Daniel, why are you throwing all of these verses to the end times?

Regarding verse 8:17, I am pretty sure we have already been through this. This verse speaks to the “Chazon” vision. This is the long term vision that BEGAN in 457 BC and ends at His second coming. Meaning, there is so much that will take place DURING this long period. It certainly does not mean all of the important events in chapters 7,8,9, 11 and 12 are ALL THROWN 2000 years in the future.

Does that make any sense? Do you think God is not prophesying the most important events in history within these chapters? His coming, cross, rejection of the Jews, the destruction of the Temple, the complete desolation of Jerusalem and His people? 
 

Those are the things that are prophesied in this chapters (BEFORE HIS COMING).

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, douggg said:

The time/times/half time is how long the little horn will persecute the saints.

It is not how long ago the Word of God was given to Moses.

Sorry, it applies to His Word that will be on the earth for 3500 years, and then it will return to Him. 
 

Under your belief that would mean the little horn (papacy) has another 2000 years to go… or, you believe the little horn is NOT the papacy and this forces you to have to convert the time element to days. 
 

Again, you place ALL of these important verses in Daniel to the end of time— where does God speak about His first coming, and all the critical events that take place at His first coming… Do you really believe He will only speak about rather briefly about the first 3 kingdoms and then jump 2000 years to the end of time and ignore the messianic prophecies surrounding His first coming?

 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/6/2023 at 6:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

Chapter 2 of the book of Daniel is one of the most important chapters in Daniel.

Hi Charlie,

 

On 12/6/2023 at 6:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

In these 3 verses, Daniel is telling us the following:

1) first kingdom - head of gold,

2) second kingdom - chest and arms of silver,

3) third kingdom -  belly and thighs of bronze,

4) fourth kingdom - legs of iron and feet of partly iron and partly clay

Why do you add together the legs of iron with the feet of partly iron and clay?

Since clay has been added to the iron, I see it as a separate kingdom.

The NASB has it as:

"The head of that statue was made of fine gold...

        its breast and its arms of silver...

               its belly and its thighs of bronxe...

                       its legs of iron...

                              its feet partly of iron and partly of clay"................. (there is no 'and' between the legs of iron + its feet)

In the Septuagint:........... "32 an image, the head of which was of fine gold, its hands and breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass,............33 its legs of iron, its feet, part of iron and part of earthenware.

 

 If the feet and toes were really merged with the legs, then, according to the prophecy, no new Middle Eastern empire should have arisen after the Roman Empire. In other words, if the Roman Empire of solid legs were to be followed by a fractured Roman Empire, foretold as the feet and toes, which would continue until God's Eternal Kingdom, then the great Islamic Empire which supplanted Roman rule in the Holy Land and most of the biblical world never should have appeared.

I have read quite a number of books and commentaries on Daniel and I find that many prophecy teachers go to extraordinary lengths to develope their scheme of a revived Roman Empire. And by focusing on Europe, the Middle Eastern heart of the biblical world is ignored. How can a person ignore Islam that has been around for thirteen centuries and dominates those lands?.

The first four parts of the statue are not a degradation of the previuos empires. Each new part speaks of a different kingdom. Daniel only numbers the third and fourth parts in the sequence..... the second was not called the second. Is there anything that forbids the feet and toes from being a fifth empire?....... I think not.

In the TANAKH, A New Translation of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES According to the Traditional Hebrew Text, reads:

"You saw the feet and the toes, part of potter's clay and part iron; that means it will be a divided kingdom"

The legs are not the basis for the feet.

[douggg]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

No it is not. The subject matter is God’s Word. It has been given to mankind at Mt. Sinai 3500 years ago. 

The subject matter is the little horn and the ten horns of Daniel 7.   When they will make their appearance.

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

If the term “end of time” is not found in Daniel, why are you throwing all of these verses to the end times?

End of time implies no longer the counting of time - which will not happen until Revelation 21.

Time of the end, end times, are expressions for the latter days, latter years.

9 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Regarding verse 8:17, I am pretty sure we have already been through this. This verse speaks to the “Chazon” vision.

Daniel 8:17 refers to the vision regarding the transgression of desolation by the little horn.    That vision will last 2300 days, Daniel 8:14.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

kjv

15 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Does that make any sense? Do you think God is not prophesying the most important events in history within these chapters? His coming, cross, rejection of the Jews, the destruction of the Temple, the complete desolation of Jerusalem and His people? 

We are talking specifically of who and when is the little horn person.   The little horn is not the pope/papacy.

The little horn will be a Jew, whose religion is Judaism.   Who will betray his own people and transgress the Mt. Sinai covenant, by committing the transgression of desolation.    And eventually becoming the beast king of Revelation 13, who will persecute the saints for a time/times/half time, who will meet his end when Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.     And the 7 years in Ezekiel 39, following the Gog/Magog event.

[douggg]

13 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Under your belief that would mean the little horn (papacy) has another 2000 years to go… or, you believe the little horn is NOT the papacy and this forces you to have to convert the time element to days. 

The Vatican will be destroyed, burned to the ground, during the reign of the ten kings at the time of the beast-king.

16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Their kingdom is the EU, the Roman Empire feet of iron and mirey clay, of the latter days, latter years, at the time of Jesus's second coming.

The beast-king will be dictator over the EU.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Charlie,

 

Why do you add together the legs of iron with the feet of partly iron and clay?

Since clay has been added to the iron, I see it as a separate kingdom.

The NASB has it as:

"The head of that statue was made of fine gold...

        its breast and its arms of silver...

               its belly and its thighs of bronxe...

                       its legs of iron...

                              its feet partly of iron and partly of clay"................. (there is no 'and' between the legs of iron + its feet)

In the Septuagint:........... "32 an image, the head of which was of fine gold, its hands and breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass,............33 its legs of iron, its feet, part of iron and part of earthenware.

 

 If the feet and toes were really merged with the legs, then, according to the prophecy, no new Middle Eastern empire should have arisen after the Roman Empire. In other words, if the Roman Empire of solid legs were to be followed by a fractured Roman Empire, foretold as the feet and toes, which would continue until God's Eternal Kingdom, then the great Islamic Empire which supplanted Roman rule in the Holy Land and most of the biblical world never should have appeared.

I have read quite a number of books and commentaries on Daniel and I find that many prophecy teachers go to extraordinary lengths to develope their scheme of a revived Roman Empire. And by focusing on Europe, the Middle Eastern heart of the biblical world is ignored. How can a person ignore Islam that has been around for thirteen centuries and dominates those lands?.

The first four parts of the statue are not a degradation of the previuos empires. Each new part speaks of a different kingdom. Daniel only numbers the third and fourth parts in the sequence..... the second was not called the second. Is there anything that forbids the feet and toes from being a fifth empire?....... I think not.

In the TANAKH, A New Translation of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES According to the Traditional Hebrew Text, reads:

"You saw the feet and the toes, part of potter's clay and part iron; that means it will be a divided kingdom"

The legs are not the basis for the feet.

It is always good to hear from you!! And as I mentioned so many times, the book of Daniel must be the most complicated book in the Scriptures to interpret. The evidence to that is it is now been over 2600 years and there is NO CONSENSUS even on the number of kingdoms. Chapter 7 clearly reveals there are only 4 kingdoms. Other verses in Daniel speak of only 4 kingdoms. That should be easy but not everyone sees things the same and that is why this forum works!!!

Before I attempt to answer your questions, please understand that once these interpretations are mentioned, you will most likely have another 10 questions for each comment that is made and departs from “today’s accepted interpretations.” 
  Meaning of course, you will not be able to discern the real appearance of the elephant just by feeling the tail. 
 

However, I will try until you folks get frustrated and these “individual” replies and I am unable to make you see the elephant. Reason: there is SO MUCH misunderstanding and misinterpretations in Daniel!!  And the primary reason for that is because these verses speak to the coming of the Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. Most of Daniel has been thrown 2000 years in the future expecting some boogeyman to come, but the verses in 9:24-27 speak of the coming Messiah- nothing is more important than His first coming and all of the results that have come upon the earth AS A RESULT OF HIS FIRST COMING (events that HAVE taken place since the cross).

So, the 4th kingdom is the most important kingdom because this is when the Messiah will arrive. He will arrive on the first day of the 70 weeks of years prophecy and fulfill His 6 requirements from in 9:24-27. All of these verses clearly reveal this last week of the prophecy and only the Messiah. There is the mention of the destruction of Jerusalem - which is the result of their rejection.

The 4th kingdom begins as pagan Rome. Symbolically, the legs and the feet are ALL within pagan Rome. However, these verses are first and foremost Messianic prophecies. Within these symbolic feet are the 10 toes and the clay. 
The clay (ceramic) and the iron appear to Nebuchadnezzar to cover over the feet, because in his dream, he does not see the 10 individual toes. 
The ceramic clay symbolizes those Jews that are captive within the pagan Roman kingdom. They are controlled in almost every way - but they are allowed to worship their “unseen” God. It was God’s design to have His people go out to the world and reveal to them the One and only God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But they did not do this and kept Him for themselves. They despised the pagans / Gentiles. 
The Messiah would arrive at the perfect time within this 4th kingdom but was rejected by His people (but this was in His plan of salvation before the beginning of the world). 
 

 Every single interpretation of 2:34 contends that the Stone that strikes the feet of the image destroys the total image. And 2:34 and 2:35 happen at the same time- at His second coming. 
But during my studies I had many difficulties reconciling this interpretation with the rest of chapter 2 and certainly the latter chapters of Daniel. 
 

Therefore, the Stone (Messiah) would symbolically strike the feet (not the toes), and break apart (not destroy) the 4 kingdoms, but break apart the two elements in the feet only. God (Potter) came to separate the iron from the clay that was controlled within the grasp of pagan Rome. Jesus did not come to destroy but to “divide.”

Symbolically, the cross would separate those Jews ( potter’s clay) that would accept Him as their Messenger and go out to preach the Good News to the world. The ceramic clay represents those Jews who rejected Him… as if their hearts were hardened as ceramic clay. And of course, the iron represents pagan Rome. 
 

The Stone would strike the feet and break them (those Jews who would accept Him) from being encased in the iron and ceramic covered feet. 
 

Verse 2:35 is indeed the second coming of Jesus but there is a 2000 year history between 2:34 and 2:35. 
 

Obviously, it is impossible to mention everything that is in my commentary but if you try and follow verses 2:41-43, you will find the results/events that take place AFTER the stone strikes the feet of the image. 
 

Example: Before the stone strikes the feet, you will see the makeup of the feet as “partly iron and partly clay” in that order. This represents pagan Rome with the “iron” in a superior position to that of the clay. No mention of the toes. 
But AFTER the stone strikes the feet, the the makeup of the kingdom (feet) change. Now, the clay takes a superior position to that of the iron. This represents His church which will be made of this Jews (potter’s clay) and those Gentiles that will accept the Jewish Messiah. However, the church will still have within it the iron of pagan Rome. 
 

After the demise of pagan Rome the church, which is now almost all converted Gentiles will “have the strength of iron within it.” This means that the little horn (papacy) who now sits atop the 4th beast will not be a passive church or a spiritual church as they claim- they will still use the iron (military like force of pagan Rome) against anyone that does not bend to their religion (God’s church in the first century was gone and replaced by so much paganism. 
 

So, yes, only 4 kingdoms, but the 4th kingdom will be divided- from pagan Rome to papal Rome. Chapter 7 explodes on this “divided” kingdom and reveals this coming little horn (started as Gentiles accepting the Messiah, the they dominated the growing church, then the bishops obtain great powers over this church, pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed and then the bishop of Rome was the victor over the other powerful bishops and became the papacy of Rome and reigned over church and state. Chapter 7 discusses all the things he would do against God.