Daniel chapter 2 (no not Revelation) by verse

[Retrobyter]

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Sorry if that word doesn’t sit well with you, but it was selected to mean the interpretations in Daniel (today’s accepted interpretations) are based on a “historical” approach. Everyone, whether you are on either side of the two main camps seem to determine the accuracy and strength of their interpretations are based on how close the actors and events in Daniel’s verses match to our historical records. A perfect example of this is in chapter 11, which most conclude it must have been written AFTER the fact because it is so accurate to our history books. However, there is not ONE verse or even ONE word after 11:4 that speaks to the time prior to the Messiah. 
 So, by using the  word “spiritual” here, I  am saying there is a non-physical or not historical in addition to the obvious secular meaning. 

Shalom, Charlie.

Sorry, brother, but it is a word that is CONSTANTLY abused and misused. It's a word that most don't understand what it means; consequently, they will frequently use it when it is not what they mean at all. Most will use it to replace the word "allegorical," which means that they are trying to use the Scriptures for some sort of allegory or analogy rather than just taking the Scriptures at face value. Again, one should not use eisegesis - reading INTO the Scriptures what they want them to say; one should always use EXEGESIS - reading OUT OF the Scriptures what the AUTHOR was intending to say! We should ALWAYS use the historical, grammatical method of interpretation.

Furthermore, Daniel 11 is ALL about the time period between Daniel and the coming of the Messiah, which is seen in Daniel 12:1. Not only does chapter 11 have to do with Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," but it also ties in Herod the Great in the later verses! I would strongly recommend reading the article in "Here a Little, There a Little" on "Daniel 11 - PROPHECY FULFILLED!" (See Daniel11.)

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The book of Daniel is a messianic prophecy. Its goal is to reveal the coming of the Messiah and and present His plan of salvation.

I agree! But, one must understand that "His plan of salvation" is His plan to rescue Israel! What most mean by this phrase is God's JUSTIFICATION of an individual.

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

It is not a history book or lesson and His message is being told THROUGH these 4 kingdoms, and the actors and events that have a relationship with His people as they travel through these 4 kingdoms. 

While Daniel is not a history book per se, it IS a book that foretells human history! And, it covers MUCH MORE than just these 4 kingdoms! It covers the end of Babylon, the times of Medo-Persia, Greece (Macedonia) through Alexander the Great, and it covers the times of the Seleucid Empire centered in Syria and the Ptolomaic Empire of Egypt, as both affect Israel. It also speaks of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, and how Herod the Great played into the good graces of the Roman emperor, Caesar Augustus.

Then, comes chapter 12:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up (this is during the introduction of the King of the Jews), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (this is the Time of Jacob's Trouble, a.k.a, the Tribulation, lasting not for 7 years but for almost 2,000 years now!), such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (at the Messiah's SECOND Coming), and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt (after the Millennium). 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever (This is talking about the eternal state after the earth has been made new).

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The secular events and actors are fairly understood. There should not be a mystery to any if the 4 kingdoms or their kings. The major issues concerning “today’s accepted interpretations” come when the historical events found in the earlier chapters of Daniel are not so recognizable anymore, yet interpreters continue to try and match them to our history books.

But the entire book of Daniel is a prophetic book- chapter 1 to 12. Chapter 2 is one, if not the most important because it to provide the secular structure or framework for the rest of the chapters but also incorporate the “spiritual” or prophetic messages from God about His plan of salvation. I have not read the non-secular interpretations of Daniel 2, only the unpacking of the metal man image. Everyone focuses on interpreting this image but ignores the underlying and beginning of His prophetic message of salvation. In chapter 2, He is setting up both structures- the one we can easily find in our history books, but the other- the most important messages are not interpreted. The metal man image and the rest of the wonderful stories in Daniel have a deep meaning to His plan of salvation. 
The Dream Sequence (big picture) and the Interpretation Sequence of verses will be found throughout most of the chapters in Daniel. Those chapters are not a recording of chronological events, but follow this method of presentation.

Again, I'm having trouble getting on board with this explanation.

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The Messiah came at the perfect time/ on the first day of the 70th week to complete the restoration of Jerusalem and to fulfill His mission within the set aside final week. Only He could restore the presence of God in the Sanctuary- He symbolized the taken (taking) away of the first piece of furniture (Ark) by Jeremiah before the Babylonians came. All the pieces of the destruction of Jerusalem was restored during the 483 years (by the end of the 69th week) in reverse order to when they were taken. Consequently, the Ark, in the form of the Messiah would be the final piece to be restored.

No, not really. The Messiah was the VEIL between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies in the Temple. Remember: When He died, the veil was torn from top to bottom, symbolizing the entry to the Holy of Holies was now opened for all through the Messiah.

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

But He did not come as the Jews expected- a conquering king that would break or destroy pagan Rome in a military like manner. He would break away those pieces within their kingdom that were symbolically held at the bottom of their kingdom (feet). The Romans thought Israel to generally be a horrible place to be .. a perfect symbol for placing Israel within their kingdom. 
 

The Jews up to this time failed to teach and preach the One true God to the world. That was their mission. But they kept Him to themselves. Within His plan of salvation for ALL mankind (plan B if you will). By way of the cross, ALL people will or can have access to God through the Messiah and the teachings from His Holy Spirit. 
 

But He would still set up His earthly church by breaking His people (symbolically) out from the feet (control) of pagan Rome. The cross would break apart those Jews within their system and held within the control of pagan Rome. 
Symbolically, the feet were covered over by the iron and ceramic clay appearing as a hardened outer layer. Although iron and clay will never come together, they would appear to form this hardened outer cover- only God could break it apart in a non-military or physical manner- He did not come to destroy but to divide.

You keep saying this, but you're misquoting Scripture:

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

This is not about power struggles within pagan Rome- again, the book of Daniel is not a history book. Chapter 2 reveals the 4 kingdom periods and those events from Babylon to papal Rome. Most of the chapters in Daniel focus on the 4th kingdom and the events after the Cross (not the chapters 3,4,5,6 that are happening in Babylon).

This is all symbolic and one can imagine the feet were covered over on a partly iron and partly clay layer. 
 

No. Verse 2:34 speaks of the “dividing” of the kingdom by the breaking apart of the two elements in the feet ONLY- the iron and the clay. He did not come to destroy but to divide. 

Again, 

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

NOT "divide."

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Verse 2:35 however reveals the time of the end, His second coming, when He will crush and destroy the 5 elements to be found no more. 

Again, all the more reason that the clay NOT be the children of Israel!

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Notice that the “threshing floor” image is found after 2:35, not 2:34. Also notice that after 2:35, God now reveals EACH of the 5 elements separately. Also, notice that the clay (ceramic) is now found in the middle of the 5 listed elements. These are all reflecting the end time harvest / threshing floor scene .

No, I'm not seeing that AT ALL!

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

After the cross, everyone will now have access to God on an individual and personal level. Each had a choice to be “potter’s clay” or “ceramic” clay. 
Symbolically, the threshing floor will not be constructed of stone or hardened earth as it was in the time of the Messiah. Now, the ceramic clay will be positioned on top of the symbolic iron and brass (two hardest metals in the metal man image) and crushed together and thrown into the wind. 

Once again, the clay in this 2:35 harvest scene represents only the “ceramic clay” - those that still have rejected the Messiah as their Lord and Savior.

No, now I think you're just reading too much into this analogy. Remember: these parts to this image were simply showing the various kingdoms that would exist during and after the reign of Nebuchadnezzar.

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Charlie.

Sorry, brother, but it is a word that is CONSTANTLY abused and misused. It's a word that most don't understand what it means; consequently, they will frequently use it when it is not what they mean at all. Most will use it to replace the word "allegorical," which means that they are trying to use the Scriptures for some sort of allegory or analogy rather than just taking the Scriptures at face value. Again, one should not use eisegesis - reading INTO the Scriptures what they want them to say; one should always use EXEGESIS - reading OUT OF the Scriptures what the AUTHOR was intending to say! We should ALWAYS use the historical, grammatical method of interpretation.

Furthermore, Daniel 11 is ALL about the time period between Daniel and the coming of the Messiah, which is seen in Daniel 12:1. Not only does chapter 11 have to do with Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," but it also ties in Herod the Great in the later verses! I would strongly recommend reading the article in "Here a Little, There a Little" on "Daniel 11 - PROPHECY FULFILLED!" (See Daniel11.)

I agree! But, one must understand that "His plan of salvation" is His plan to rescue Israel! What most mean by this phrase is God's JUSTIFICATION of an individual.

While Daniel is not a history book per se, it IS a book that foretells human history! And, it covers MUCH MORE than just these 4 kingdoms! It covers the end of Babylon, the times of Medo-Persia, Greece (Macedonia) through Alexander the Great, and it covers the times of the Seleucid Empire centered in Syria and the Ptolomaic Empire of Egypt, as both affect Israel. It also speaks of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, and how Herod the Great played into the good graces of the Roman emperor, Caesar Augustus.

Then, comes chapter 12:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up (this is during the introduction of the King of the Jews), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (this is the Time of Jacob's Trouble, a.k.a, the Tribulation, lasting not for 7 years but for almost 2,000 years now!), such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (at the Messiah's SECOND Coming), and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt (after the Millennium). 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever (This is talking about the eternal state after the earth has been made new).

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Again, I'm having trouble getting on board with this explanation.

No, not really. The Messiah was the VEIL between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies in the Temple. Remember: When He died, the veil was torn from top to bottom, symbolizing the entry to the Holy of Holies was now opened for all through the Messiah.

You keep saying this, but you're misquoting Scripture:

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Again, 

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

NOT "divide."

Again, all the more reason that the clay NOT be the children of Israel!

No, I'm not seeing that AT ALL!

No, now I think you're just reading too much into this analogy. Remember: these parts to this image were simply showing the various kingdoms that would exist during and after the reign of Nebuchadnezzar.

The only comment to make is that your interpretations are clearly in line with “today’s accepted interpretations.” But before I end my response I can assure you that chapter 11 has nothing to do with the post Greek period. It is their way ( many, many interpreters) that Daniel through our history books. They place the book of Daniel on the left side of the table, with their history books on the right side and find success when they can match the two together. If you look for the Messiah within these verses you will find Him. No Ptolemy’s, Seleucid’s, no Epiphanies, no Cleopatra or Marc Anthony. Those folks are only found in our history books- they are not in Daniel- unless you want them to be! 

Luke 11:49-56 Jesus came to divide… (potters clay v. Ceramic clay in this symbolic dream of chapter 2). 

[Diaste]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:14 AM, douggg said:

Diaste, do you mean "Roman" instead of "Rome"?    If so, I would agree that the fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire - and not "Rome"

Charlie uses Rome because he maintains that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist/beast.  So Charlie says pagan Rome and papal Rome in building his case.

The four kingdoms are...

The Babylon empire, the Medo-Persian empire, the Greek empire, the Roman empire.

I can't find Rome or Roman or Papal Rome as the 4th kingdom. The 4th comes from the Diadochi as is clear from Daniel 8 and 11.

Dan 8

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off,(Greece and the death of Alexander) and four prominent horns came up in its place,(Diadochi) pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

9From one of these horns(Diadochi)a little horn(the beast) emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

This is the only succession after Alexander that I see. I don't see Rome here. I do see Egypt, Macedonia, Asia Minor and Mesopotamia; those regions are where the Diadochi ruled. The little horn and fourth kingdom comes from one of those. 

I lean toward between the two rivers.

[Diaste]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:07 AM, Charlie744 said:

So you don’t believe Rome is the 4th kingdom.. fine. Again, no name is mentioned here. But who do you believe is the 4th kingdom? 
 

Any comments that there are more than 4? Anything else these 3 verses tell us?

What is see is the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to the Diadochi. 

Dan 8 says, 

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

That little horn is the beast and the leader of the 4th kingdom, and he comes from one of the Diadochi.

This is the who the little horn is and what he does and his ultimate end:

"an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne. 24His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause terrible destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 25Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands."

Clearly the beast/antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition, etc.

I would say there are 3 clearly identified kingdoms in the statue but after that there is one kingdom that appears twice. Once when the iron kingdom is pure, hard iron with no dilution, and once when the iron kingdom is a mixture.

As in the 4th kingdom of iron, and then later the Iron Kingdom 4.1.

Islam is a much better fit in the prophetic puzzle of the identity of the 4th kingdom, imo.

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

What is see is the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to the Diadochi. 

Dan 8 says, 

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

That little horn is the beast and the leader of the 4th kingdom, and he comes from one of the Diadochi.

This is the who the little horn is and what he does and his ultimate end:

"an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne. 24His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause terrible destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 25Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands."

Clearly the beast/antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition, etc.

I would say there are 3 clearly identified kingdoms in the statue but after that there is one kingdom that appears twice. Once when the iron kingdom is pure, hard iron with no dilution, and once when the iron kingdom is a mixture.

As in the 4th kingdom of iron, and then later the Iron Kingdom 4.1.

Islam is a much better fit in the prophetic puzzle of the identity of the 4th kingdom, imo.

Okay, that is fine. But how does Islam relate to iron? How do these verses in chapter 2 speak to Islam. If Islam is the 4th kingdom, then are the verses from 2:40 to 2:44 speaking about Islam?

Does that mean that the majority of the verses in Daniel 7,8,9,10,11 and 12 are speaking about Islam?

 

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

What is see is the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to the Diadochi. 

Dan 8 says, 

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

That little horn is the beast and the leader of the 4th kingdom, and he comes from one of the Diadochi.

This is the who the little horn is and what he does and his ultimate end:

"an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne. 24His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause terrible destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 25Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands."

Clearly the beast/antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition, etc.

I would say there are 3 clearly identified kingdoms in the statue but after that there is one kingdom that appears twice. Once when the iron kingdom is pure, hard iron with no dilution, and once when the iron kingdom is a mixture.

As in the 4th kingdom of iron, and then later the Iron Kingdom 4.1.

Islam is a much better fit in the prophetic puzzle of the identity of the 4th kingdom, imo.

Well, it might appear that we may have a sufficient of the most common interpretations for the 4th kingdom.

Here is what those responses tell us;

1) the 4th kingdom is or maybe Islam,

2) the 4th kingdom is or maybe the Diadochi period,

3)  the 4th kingdom is or maybe a coming kingdom ein the future,

4) the 4th kingdom is Rome, 

Did I get them right from all the responses? Is there another that I missed?

 Thanks. Let me know before we move on to the next 2 verses. 

[Charlie744]

Here are the 4 responses received from within the Worthy members based on the 3 verses in Daniel 2:38 -40:
 

1) the 4th kingdom is or maybe Islam,

2) the 4th kingdom is or maybe the Diadochi period,

3)  the 4th kingdom is or maybe a coming kingdom ein the future,

4) the 4th kingdom is Rome, 

Using your 4th kingdom of choice, what is the interpretation for verse 41 below?

 

 41Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 

 

[douggg]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

I can't find Rome or Roman or Papal Rome as the 4th kingdom. The 4th comes from the Diadochi as is clear from Daniel 8 and 11.

Diaste, the Diadochi are the four heads on the third beast in Daniel 7.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Edited December 11, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Here are the 4 responses received from within the Worthy members based on the 3 verses in Daniel 2:38 -40:
 

1) the 4th kingdom is or maybe Islam,

2) the 4th kingdom is or maybe the Diadochi period,

3)  the 4th kingdom is or maybe a coming kingdom ein the future,

4) the 4th kingdom is Rome, 

Using your 4th kingdom of choice, what is the interpretation for verse 41 below?

 

 41Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 

 

verse 41 - the Roman Empire manifested in the end times as the EU.

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

verse 41 - the Roman Empire manifested in the end times as the EU.

Okay and thanks. Now, what tells you that? In order got you to come to that conclusion you must have identified the toes, the potter’s clay, what kingdom was divided, why was this kingdom divided, when was it divided, what is meant by the “strength of iron was within it.”

These terms must be explained to show what will take place, when and why..