Are signs for Israel alone?

[eastgate]

Are the prophesies for Israel, along with the promises, exclusive to them.

[George]

Shalom eastgate,

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums. Please feel free to browse around and get to know everyone. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.  As soon as you post a few times and after they are approved, it'll tell us that you are "real" person and not a "bot", you'll be free to post throughout our forums and join our chat rooms.  Forgive us for this minor inconvenience, however, we've had issues in the past with Spammers as well as those who wish to post obscene photos and messages!

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Let me share a little bit of my vision for the ministry in a parable.

Let's say I'm throwing a big party and am inviting the world to the party (the forums) and I want everyone to have a great time, eating (reading through posts being fed), drinking (being encouraged to walk in His Word), and having fellowship with one another.  In Israel, we have Shabbat meals -- and whenever you have 2 Jews -- you have 3 opinions -- it's GREAT to be opinionated.  I encourage discussions ... but during our Shabbat meals ... we never ever get to the point in disagreements whereby food is being tossed and seriously yelling takes place!  And if someone comes into the meal ... and starts throwing food ... and yells at everyone -- what do you suppose the head of the Shabbat meal will do?  He'll escort those causing problems out of the house!  Why?  Because the whole reason for the gathering was to learn from one another ... to have a great time of fellowship!  

Some people like to constantly throw food and yell ... they won't last on Worthy ... because they missed the point of the party ... it's a prequel to the true party -- the Lamb's Supper!  

All I'm trying to provide is a place to allow true fellowship ... and discussions in love ... in the hopes it will be a catalyst for true REVIVAL based on REPENTANCE!

I hope you have a blessed time at Worthy!

Please use the REPORT POST feature (which can be found at the top right of all posts) any posts that you believe should be reviewed!  We strive to have ALL members abide by our Terms of Service.

While this message is "automated", please know that if you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a private message, which can be found at the top right to the left of your name.

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

P.S. Be sure to check out Worthy Christian Chat for our live chat room!

[Michael37]

17 minutes ago, eastgate said:

Are the prophesies for Israel, along with the promises, exclusive to them.

Hi @eastgate Wow, you've been a member since 2011. Interesting first post.

There are some key words in this passage:

Eph 2:11-22  Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—  (12)  that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  (13)  But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  (15)  having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  (16)  and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.  (17)  And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.  (18)  For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.  (19)  Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,  (20)  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,  (21)  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,  (22)  in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
 

Notice the final outcome, "built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit".

Now there are special features of recognition and relationship pertaining to Israel, as specified in the Book of Revelation, see this quote from BingChat and my quote from Revelation 21.

 

The Book of Revelation is an apocalyptic text that describes future events dealing with the end of the world as we know it ¹. According to an article in Israel My Glory, the book of Revelation reveals how God will triumph over Satan and bring Israel to safety and everlasting peace ¹. The article also explains that Israel is represented as a woman about to deliver a child in the book of Revelation ¹. The woman symbolizes Israel, as indicated by Genesis 37:9–11, where the sun and the moon referred to Jacob and Rachel, Joseph’s parents. The stars in the woman’s crown clearly related to the 12 sons of Jacob and identified the woman as Israel fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant ¹.

Rev 21:12-13  Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:  (13)  three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

I hope this helps!

Blessings from Michael37.

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, eastgate said:

Are the prophesies for Israel, along with the promises, exclusive to them?

Shalom, eastgate.

Let's just say that the prophecies and the promises are PRIMARILY for Israel, but through the Messiah, Gentile believers can also be a part of His Kingdom and share in His bounty! When Gentile believers are adopted into God's family, they become BROTHERS to the Messiah, and are actually included into His tribe, the tribe of Yhudah (or Judah). We can likewise call God, "our Father!" When we share in His family, we also share in the promises and the prophecies for Israel.

[Who me]

10 hours ago, eastgate said:

Are the prophesies for Israel, along with the promises, exclusive to them.

Well your first problem is who is Israel?

 

Please note the promises of blessings and curses for Israel about keeping or breaking the covenant.

So the nation of Israel are they keeping the covenant?.

 

Gods promise to Abraham of countless descendants, and who are the Children of Abraham?

 

Then you have the multiple applications of many prophecies.

They often had an immediate result, a long term result and a spiritual result.

So how are you interpreting the prophecies you've been reading, as applicable to a disobedient secular nation or as a spiritual application to those who belief?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings @eastgate

My short answer would be " no" although it is not a good enough answer as you can see why as it is explained well by @Retrobyter

Sort of a yes AND no answer,lol

" Primarily" is the best response....

With love in Christ,Kwik

 

[Neighbor]

19 hours ago, eastgate said:

Are the prophesies for Israel, along with the promises, exclusive to them.

Hi,

No and no is my own thought. Prophecy as I see it has not done a thing for the Jews who reject the prophets even today just as their father's did.

 The prophecies unfold over time in a constant stream of reveals of Yeshua. Yet few if any Jews heed them, while many a Gentile nonbeliever is called to their own individual repentance and turning about from sin against God to worship of Yeshua as their lord and savior by the Holy Spirits enlightening of the truth of the Prophets.

There will be a time, perhap soon and very quickly that will change, as there will be 144,000 Jews called of God to turn about Israel and individual Jews to their salvation  through Yeshua's sacrifice as the first fruit of many to come.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Who me said:

Well your first problem is who is Israel?

Shalom, Who me.

Let's just nip this in the bud before it blossoms. The "church" does NOT replace Israel, not in their promises, not in their prophecies, and not in their position as the people of the Book, nor in their position with God! We, who are Gentile believers, were GRAFFED INTO the Olive Tree of God's Israel! So, God's Kingdom (which won't begin until the Messiah returns), consists FIRST of children of Israel, primarily the Jews, and THEN also INCLUDES the Gentile believers. So, "Israel" is ISRAEL! The children of Israel, wherever they will be found on the earth, are STILL the ones to whom the prophecies were made and for whom the prophecies were written. Paul told us that in Romans 11 and in Ephesians 2. So, no matter how much the Jews are hated by those "Christians" who really have TOO MUCH to learn, such as Martin Luther, they are STILL the "beloved of the fathers - the Patriarchs!" 

4 hours ago, Who me said:

Please note the promises of blessings and curses for Israel about keeping or breaking the covenant.

So the nation of Israel are they keeping the covenant?

It doesn't matter! Their Messiah kept the covenant perfectly and completely and died anyway for their sins! They are supposed to be shown GRACE through the believing Gentiles, just as the believing Gentiles were shown GRACE, when they were not part of the family of the Messiah!

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made BOTH one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself OF TWAIN (OF TWO) one new man, [so] making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile BOTH unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you (GENTILES) which were afar off, and to them (JEWS) that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 NOW THEREFORE ye (Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens WITH the saints (the Jews), and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone] (the CAPSTONE); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye (PLURAL) also are builded TOGETHER for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Neither Gentile believers nor the "churches" have taken the place of the children of Israel; they are ADDED TO the children of Israel!

4 hours ago, Who me said:

God's promise to Abraham [was] of countless descendants, and who are the Children of Abraham?

No doubt, they are the children of Israel as well as countless Gentile believers through the Messiah.

4 hours ago, Who me said:

Then you have the multiple applications of many prophecies.

They often had an immediate result, a long term result and a spiritual result.

This is SHEER NONSENSE! ANYONE who starts spouting nonsense about a "spiritual" ANYTHING DOESN'T KNOW WHAT "spiritual" MEANS!

4 hours ago, Who me said:

So how are you interpreting the prophecies you've been reading, as applicable to a disobedient secular nation or as a spiritual application to those who believe?

It's NOT an either/or scenario! It is supposed to be a BOTH scenario! That you don't know this makes me wonder about your church's teachings! Here's what Paul said in Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they (the children of Israel, particularly the Jews) stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their (temporary) fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for TO PROVOKE THEM TO JEALOUSY. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the (temporary) diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them (the children of Israel) [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? (RESURRECTION ASSOCIATED WITH THE SECOND COMING) 16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in (REPLACING THE BRANCH REMOVED)!"

20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH! Be not highminded, but FEAR! 21 For if God spared not THE NATURAL BRANCHES, [take heed] lest he also spare not THEE! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:

on them (the children of Israel) which fell, severity;
but toward thee (Gentiles), goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF!

23 And they (the children of Israel) also, IF they abide NOT still in UNBELIEF, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou (a Gentile) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (another nation), and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree (the Kingdom of Israel):
how much more shall these, which be the NATURAL [BRANCHES], be graffed into THEIR OWN olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be "wise" in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." [Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34]

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] ENEMIES for your sakes:
BUT as touching the election (the chosen ones), [they are] BELOVED for the fathers' sakes!

29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance (i.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or calling). 30 For as ye in times past have NOT believed God, yet have NOW obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (Jews) also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR (GENTILES') MERCY THEY (JEWS) ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL.

And, verse 31 is the KEY! We who are Gentile believers are to be showing the Jews MERCY so that they also may obtain MERCY!

This is a task given to us in which we have been failing MISERABLY!!! No doubt, they are "a stubborn people," but we've been tasked with showing them their Messiah, helping them to trust their Messiah, and revealing to them how they can be JUSTIFIED by God through their Messiah's coming as "the Son of Joseph," the suffering and dying Messiah!

It's been almost 2,000 years now, and they are STILL little closer to accepting Yeeshuwa` as their Messiah than they were immediately after His Sacrificial Death and Resurrection! Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said He wasn't coming back until they do!

Matthew 23:39 (KJV)

39 "For I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT SEE ME HENCEFORTH, TILL YE SHALL SAY, 
'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD' (Psalm 118:26)."

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,

No and no is my own thought. Prophecy as I see it has not done a thing for the Jews who reject the prophets even today just as their father's did.

 The prophecies unfold over time in a constant stream of reveals of Yeshua. Yet few if any Jews heed them, while many a Gentile nonbeliever is called to their own individual repentance and turning about from sin against God to worship of Yeshua as their lord and savior by the Holy Spirits enlightening of the truth of the Prophets.

There will be a time, perhap soon and very quickly that will change, as there will be 144,000 Jews called of God to turn about Israel and individual Jews to their salvation  through Yeshua's sacrifice as the first fruit of many to come.

Shalom, Neighbor.

It better happen before then! If not, we'll go on wishing for the Messiah's return and not seeing it come!

Sorry, I was a bit abrupt; I should have said more: The 144,000 children of Israel (12,000 of which will be Jews), won't magically appear! We need to SHOW them their Messiah! Gentile believers can be instrumental in BUILDING the 144,000 children of Israel who believe in their Messiah Yeeshuwa`!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[Who me]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

STILL little closer to accepting Yeeshuwa` as their Messiah

Salvation is through faith in Jesus. The devout orthodox  Jew is as lost as the secular  atheist Jew. 

So if salvation is only through Jesus it follows that Israel is no longer a political  or racial enterty  but a spiritual one where there is no Jew or Greek, barbarian, male or female but only Christians.