Book of Revelation - Structure

[Charlie744]

As many may know, I have completed the study of Daniel and would like to move to Revelation.

I hope I have learned some things during Daniel that will assist me in unpacking Revelation.

The very first thing I would like to do is to try and identify the “structure” of this book. The book of Daniel has a very defined structure including within each chapter. 
 

Does anyone have a thought on the “timing” of this structure (to be determined)?

Daniel covers the period from 606BC to the second coming and all the actors and events are found within the 4 kingdoms. An important feature of Daniel is that these 4 kingdoms will be presented differently in chapters 2,7 and 8, but they will never lose their identity.

In Revelation, do you think that God is using the same kind of presentation? 
 

Could He use the “Church” in a similar manner as the 4 kingdoms? In other words, there is only the one church but we see 7 presentations that reveal different characteristics just like the 4 kingdoms. 
 

Meaning, the 7 churches go from left to right on the timeline and perhaps the other “7’s” (seals, trumpets and bowls) provide the details that fall under these churches? 
 

Thanks. 
 

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Most of the things In revelation is about the time of the end .Much like Daniel 11:31-12:2 ,Mark 13,Luke 21,and Mathew 24 cover the last 3.5 years before Christ comes.Revelation has things in it that cover thousands of years but the majority is centered around the coming of Christ.

You will have a greater understanding of Daniel when comparing the events in Daniel to revelation .

 

 

Daniel 12:4

But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

 

Just like the yellow pages,"let your fingers do the walking".

[Diaste]

What do you propose?

[JoeCanada]

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

As many may know, I have completed the study of Daniel and would like to move to Revelation.

I hope I have learned some things during Daniel that will assist me in unpacking Revelation.

The very first thing I would like to do is to try and identify the “structure” of this book. The book of Daniel has a very defined structure including within each chapter. 
 

Does anyone have a thought on the “timing” of this structure (to be determined)?

Daniel covers the period from 606BC to the second coming and all the actors and events are found within the 4 kingdoms. An important feature of Daniel is that these 4 kingdoms will be presented differently in chapters 2,7 and 8, but they will never lose their identity.

In Revelation, do you think that God is using the same kind of presentation? 
 

Could He use the “Church” in a similar manner as the 4 kingdoms? In other words, there is only the one church but we see 7 presentations that reveal different characteristics just like the 4 kingdoms. 
 

Meaning, the 7 churches go from left to right on the timeline and perhaps the other “7’s” (seals, trumpets and bowls) provide the details that fall under these churches? 
 

Thanks. 
 

 

 

Hi Charlie,

There are many who have unpacked Revelation and are quite satisfied with "their" result.

However, I'm pretty sure that we will not be certain of the order of events until they happen.

All of our opinions are really only best guesses.

Without a fairly good grasp on the Old Testament, I think it would be difficult to read Rev and come away with a good understanding of it, because the BofRev with its 450 verses has some 500 references to the Old Testament.

John was told by Jesus to write the visions down and send it to the 7 churches.... Rev1:11.

Since this was Jesus' command for John to write the visions down without any explanation, we have the book in exactly the form that the Lord desired it.

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Could He use the “Church” in a similar manner as the 4 kingdoms? In other words, there is only the one church but we see 7 presentations that reveal different characteristics just like the 4 kingdoms. 
 

Meaning, the 7 churches go from left to right on the timeline and perhaps the other “7’s” (seals, trumpets and bowls) provide the details that fall under these churches? 

Oh boy.... you nailed this. Yes indeed. 

Again, there are many who simply brush the Letters to the 7 Churches in chapters 2 and 3 aside, and say "well, these are historical only.......... Jesus is giving us a history lesson"

Rev 1:11.............. "Write in a book what you see, (visions Jesus is about to show him) and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

[Charlie744]

15 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Charlie,

There are many who have unpacked Revelation and are quite satisfied with "their" result.

However, I'm pretty sure that we will not be certain of the order of events until they happen.

All of our opinions are really only best guesses.

Without a fairly good grasp on the Old Testament, I think it would be difficult to read Rev and come away with a good understanding of it, because the BofRev with its 450 verses has some 500 references to the Old Testament.

John was told by Jesus to write the visions down and send it to the 7 churches.... Rev1:11.

Since this was Jesus' command for John to write the visions down without any explanation, we have the book in exactly the form that the Lord desired it.

Oh boy.... you nailed this. Yes indeed. 

Again, there are many who simply brush the Letters to the 7 Churches in chapters 2 and 3 aside, and say "well, these are historical only.......... Jesus is giving us a history lesson"

Rev 1:11.............. "Write in a book what you see, (visions Jesus is about to show him) and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

Very nice! And thanks for the comments! I hope you don’t mind if I run a bunch of theories by you…

I really need to lock down the structure of Revelation before I can go into the trees. 
 

One thing that popped up this morning:

Daniel - repeatedly God tells us it was written for the Jews.. 

Then in chapter 2 , He provides us with the formal structure of the 4 kingdoms- everything will take place within these 4 and only 4 kingdoms- so we know we do not have to consider new actors or events like Islam, China, USA, etc.

Here in Revelation, God immediately tells us who these chapters/ prophecies are written to - no longer the Jews as in Daniel, but specifically to the 7 churches. 
 

He then states these prophecies will cover 3 periods - based on what John saw, are now, and what will come. 
 

So, here are at least 3 pieces of the “structure” … where all the details will be placed. 
 

Let me know if you can add or subtract from the above thoughts. 
 

Now, I am looking into where the 4 horses fit. My initial thought is they represent 4 separate stages of the beast/ papal Rome kingdom that goes against God’s earthly kingdom (His church). 
 

Again, just at the beginning of this puzzle- but I have the Daniel structure/formula that shows how God presented the movement of the Jews through the 4 kingdoms. 
 

Now, we get to try and track how the 7 churches travel through these 4 horse periods (if that proves to be the correct way to view Revelation). 
 

Thanks again, Charlie 

 

[JoeCanada]

50 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Daniel - repeatedly God tells us it was written for the Jews.. 

There's alot to unpack in your response.

Let's start with the above quote: 

I'm not 100% sure about that.

If we look at the Exodus for example, (12:37-38)

"Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children.

A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock."

Here we see a mixed multitude also left Egypt along with the Israelis. And Scripture tells us that:

"But if a tranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land................ Exodus 12:48

So some of the mixed multitude were considered native to the land.... Israelis!

I would therefore consider that the people who left Babylon with Daniel were not only Israelis by blood, but were also Israelis of mixed multitude because they believed in the God of Daniel.

But.... perhaps you could give us some scriptures from Daniel that supports this view.... "repeatedly God tells us it was written for the Jews"

[Dennis1209]

Hello Charlie,

I have been studying the book of Revelation again lately and have developed some thoughts on its structure. It would be beneficial to know from what perspective you study prophecy, i.e., preterist, pretribulation, amillennialism, etc.

As was previously noted, the Book of Revelation has many more parallel and allusion passages to the entire Bible than any other book for a reason. As with many books, there is a summary of the book at the end that ties it all together.

Its structure can be subdivided into past, present, and future: the church age, Israel, those that affect Israel, and the kingdom of the Gentiles. The culmination from the fall and sin to the unveiling of Christ. The structure and uses of completeness, the number seven.

As most know, the books of Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand. I particularly tie this verse in Daniel to Revelation:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There is no sense in detailing my thoughts unless we are on the same exegetical page.

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hello Charlie,

I have been studying the book of Revelation again lately and have developed some thoughts on its structure. It would be beneficial to know from what perspective you study prophecy, i.e., preterist, pretribulation, amillennialism, etc.

As was previously noted, the Book of Revelation has many more parallel and allusion passages to the entire Bible than any other book for a reason. As with many books, there is a summary of the book at the end that ties it all together.

Its structure can be subdivided into past, present, and future: the church age, Israel, those that affect Israel, and the kingdom of the Gentiles. The culmination from the fall and sin to the unveiling of Christ. The structure and uses of completeness, the number seven.

As most know, the books of Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand. I particularly tie this verse in Daniel to Revelation:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There is no sense in detailing my thoughts unless we are on the same exegetical page.

Dennis, I could not offer you a label of my end time prophecy. It would be the same if I were to provide that request for Daniel. 
 

Example: Most commentators seem to place most of Daniel (later chapters) as end time events. They almost all agree chapter 11 is about the Ptolemy’s and Epiphanies and those folks coming before pagan Rome. 
 

However, most of Daniel, especially 11 is about the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and, even more, papal Rome up to approximately 500AD. 
 

Consequently, the interpretations in Daniel will not match “today’s accepted interpretations of Revelation,” even though they are not very sound, complete or have much consensus within the theological community. 
 

Meaning, I need to approach Revelation exactly as I did for Daniel. Verse by verse and let them speak for themselves and not attempt to fit them into one of the three categories.

Therefor, if it is possible for you to comment on the 3 statements I made earlier, it might tell us if there is a good starting point:

1) What do you think is the timing John is speaking to?

Is he speaking from the period after the cross to the end time?

Is the starting time different?

2) Do you agree the “actors” within these 22 verses focus on :

    a) the 7 churches,

    b) the one who opposes His earthly kingdom,

     c) Is focused on the war between those who accept the Christ and His church and those that reject Him. In other words, it speaks to a spiritual war and does not bring in secular actors like Islam, China, USA, etc.,

     d) there is no “anti-Christ” figure.. there is not one in Daniel and there is not one in Revelation. God has provided more than enough information to identify the “little horn” who is the one that attacks God and His earthly church for over 1500 years.

    e) There is no 7 year tribulation period with such an “anti-Christ” figure - the “he” in 9:27 is “He” and He confirmed the New Covenant WITHIN the last 7 years of Daniel’s prophecy.

 

So, you can see, these claims are almost always found in any one of the 3 categories you mentioned. But they are not found in Daniel and they (actors and events) will not be found in Revelation. 
 

Consequently, I must first try and identify the “structure.” I don’t have to concern myself with any NEW actors, etc., being brought into these verses. Daniel has already revealed all of the actors and major events up to 500 AD. The major bad actor is the little horn and the 4th beast and the 7 churches- God’s people who are fighting this spiritual war. 
 

Hope this makes sense, and I look to your comments. Charlie 
 

 

 

[Charlie744]

21 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

There's alot to unpack in your response.

Let's start with the above quote: 

I'm not 100% sure about that.

If we look at the Exodus for example, (12:37-38)

"Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children.

A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock."

Here we see a mixed multitude also left Egypt along with the Israelis. And Scripture tells us that:

"But if a tranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land................ Exodus 12:48

So some of the mixed multitude were considered native to the land.... Israelis!

I would therefore consider that the people who left Babylon with Daniel were not only Israelis by blood, but were also Israelis of mixed multitude because they believed in the God of Daniel.

But.... perhaps you could give us some scriptures from Daniel that supports this view.... "repeatedly God tells us it was written for the Jews"

I don’t disagree at all that there were people, other than the Jews that went with them to Jerusalem.

But the book of Daniel is written to the Jews and speak largely to the “restoration of the Jews, the Temple, the city, all the Levitical services, etc., after Babylon. 
 

Do you find this book is not addressed to the Jews?

Certainly, it covers the period in Babylon, the time of their punishment period, but even during those 70 years, God is using Daniel to reveal to Nebuchadnezzar introduce His God to them. 
 

I am interested in learning your thoughts on who these chapters are speaking to.  Thanks, Charlie 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:12 PM, Charlie744 said:

Daniel - repeatedly God tells us it was written for the Jews..

I have done a quick scan of Daniel looking for anything that would tell me that these writings were written for the Jews..... specifically for the Jews. And with God telling us 'repeatedly' I should have found something.

Maybe a person meant that we could deduce from Daniel that it was written for the Jews. Perhaps a few clues here and there. Perhaps reading between the lines. 

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am interested in learning your thoughts on who these chapters are speaking to

I believe that the whole book of Daniel was written  "to those who have an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says...."

I say this because I believe that the Book of Daniel is a prophecy for the church for the last days, for the final 70th week. 

Jesus tells us in Math 24:14-15............. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the AofD which was spoken of through the prophet Daniel....(let the reader understand)..."

Jesus tells us to look at Daniels' prophecies for understanding.