Does Heaven Actually Exist?

[Your closest friendnt]

@Retrobyter Shalom. 

The Heavenly Father was waiting to have children in Jesus Christ, sanctified and justified by his blood. Jesus had to die first before the Heavenly Father had any children. 

Ephesians 1:4-6.

4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 

5. he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and wil

6. to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Edited February 16 by Your closest friendnt

[Retrobyter]

On 2/13/2024 at 4:41 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

When we talk about Heaven we should keep in mind not the expance above the earth including the the earth's atmosphere but we should think about the Heavenly world or realm that existed before the earth was created. Which host all the Heavenly host the Angels and everything that there is in it.

Repeat that it was in existence before the Creation of the world. Therefore it is not a physical place a place that was created at the time of the creation of the world. 

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

(Going back a bit in the conversation.) This ASSUMES that the "angels" ("Messengers") weren't a PART of the creation! They could have been included on day 4, 5, or even 6!

One should NOT be misled about Job 38:7. Context shows that this is talking about the RE-Creation AFTER THE FLOOD! One should ALWAYS consider the context of a verse to see if it is indeed talking about what one THINKS it's talking about!

Job 38:1-11 (KJV)

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 "Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And brake up for it my decreed [place], and set bars and doors, 11 And said, 'Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed'?"

This is NOT talking about the original creation in Genesis 1 and 2. Of that environment, we read:

Genesis 2:4-6 (KJV)

4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

It wasn't until the FLOOD and its aftermath in Genesis 7-9 that we read about rain and the fountains of the deep being broken up! It wasn't until AFTER the Flood that God laid the current foundations of the earth, stopped the rain, created clouds, and the continental shelves, staying the waves of the deep oceans!

So, these "morning stars" and "sons of God" couldn't be singing at the FIRST Creation of Genesis 1!

Furthermore, these "angels" are said to be CREATED BEINGS:

Hebrews 1:1-14 (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,

"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? (Psalm 2:7)

And again,

"I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"? (2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:13)

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith,

"And let all the angels of God worship him." (Deut. 32:43)

7 And of the angels he saith,

"Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." (Psalm 104:4)

8 But unto the Son [he saith],

"'Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.' 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Psalm 45:6-7)

10 And,

"Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." (Psalm 102:25-27)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time,

"Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"? (Psalm 110:1)

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And, again, there is NOWHERE where God is NOT!!!

Psalm 139:1-12 (KJV)

1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]]

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me]. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways. 4 For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. 9 [If] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say,

"Surely the darkness shall cover me";

even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].

And, Shlomoh ("Solomon") said,

2 Chronicles 6:18 (KJV)

18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven (Hebrew: שָׁמַיִם = shaamayim = "skies") and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: וּשְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמַיִם = uwshmeey hashshaamayim = "and-skies of-the-skies" or outer space) cannot contain thee; how much less this house (the Temple) which I have built!"

[Scott Free]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:59 PM, angels4u said:

From the Bible we find our the following about heaven.

The Bible talks of three heavens: atmosphere(terrestrial), starry space(the Universe) and God's dwelling place. Seems we are talking about states of awareness more than separate locations, because, the actions in each are mingled together affecting each other as a whole.

 

Edited February 16 by Scott Free

[Starise]

I believe a lot of this could be distilled to more straight forward answers. I like the comment by @Scott Free

Heaven is one of those terms used in multiple applications and with multiple understandings all valid.

If a 4 year old asks if dead people go to heaven most would say yes and feel no need to describe the multiple ideas about it. I would go even further to say the kind of 'heaven' most think of is a changing dynamic. 

In the believer sense it is a  place specifically prepared for us with wonders we can't comprehend,too good to presently imagine, in addition to being led by the very real presence of God of course.

Yes there is a heaven in that sense.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

13 hours ago, Scott Free said:

The Bible talks of three heavens: atmosphere(terrestrial), starry space(the Universe) and God's dwelling place. Seems we are talking about states of awareness more than separate locations, because, the actions in each are mingled together affecting each other as a whole.

 

  @Scott Free

This puzzle me.

What is this about? Please elaborate in a way that I will be able to talk about it to someone else. 

[1to3]

Does Heaven Actualy Exist?

Gods W0rd found in the Holy Bible says YES

and the most important aspect of heaven is that we will be in the presence of God.

Rev 21 mentions this several times.

 

Rev 21:

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

² And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

⁴ And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

⁵ And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

⁶ And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

⁷ He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

⁸ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

⁹ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

¹¹ Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

¹² And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

¹³ On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

¹⁴ And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

¹⁵ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

¹⁶ And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

¹⁷ And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

¹⁸ And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

¹⁹ And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

²⁰ The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

²¹ And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

²² And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

²³ And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

²⁴ And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

²⁵ And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

²⁶ And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

²⁷ And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

Reve 22v:

⁴ And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

⁵ And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

⁶ And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

⁷ Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

¹² And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

¹³ I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

¹⁴ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

¹⁵ For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

¹⁶ I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

¹⁷ And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

¹⁸ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

¹⁹ And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

²⁰ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

²¹ The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Does Heaven Actualy Exist?

Gods W0rd found in the Holy Bible says YES

and the most important aspect of heaven is that we will be in the presence of God.

Rev 21 mentions this several times.

 

Rev 21:

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

² And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

⁴ And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

⁵ And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

⁶ And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

⁷ He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

⁸ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

⁹ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

¹¹ Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

¹² And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

¹³ On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

¹⁴ And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

¹⁵ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

¹⁶ And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

¹⁷ And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

¹⁸ And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

¹⁹ And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

²⁰ The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

²¹ And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

²² And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

²³ And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

²⁴ And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

²⁵ And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

²⁶ And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

²⁷ And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

Reve 22v:

⁴ And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

⁵ And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

⁶ And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

⁷ Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

¹² And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

¹³ I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

¹⁴ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

¹⁵ For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

¹⁶ I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

¹⁷ And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

¹⁸ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

¹⁹ And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

²⁰ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

²¹ The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Jesus open the way to Heaven to where the Heavenly Father is. Jesus all the time was saying I am going to the "Heavenly Father". The Jews in the Old when they died they were gathered to their Father Abraham. I am not talking how things are with the New Covenant but during the reign of the old Covenant. Isaac was gathered to Abraham and Jacob was gathered to Abraham and all the sons of Jacob were gathered to Abraham THE ISRAELITES were gathered to Abraham. At the time of their death they descended to their Father Abraham. But Jesus Christ spoke a different language none of them spoke before when He said I have come from above and I am going to my Father the Heavenly Father. Before his death on the Cross when his disciples asked him "where are you going" when he told them that he is going away in the Gospel of John. Jesus knew that he will die and raised from the dead and ascend to the Heavenly Father this is why he said to them that he is going to the Heavenly Father. He was the first one to say I am going to the Heavenly Father and the first one to ascend to the Heavenly Father. Jesus also he said to his disciples in John 17:24 that they will also  go to the Heavenly Father. As a departure from what they had grown to hope that they at death will go to their  Father Abraham. Jesus gave them their new destination at their death, the will be with him to where he is with the Heavenly Father. 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 

Edited February 18 by Your closest friendnt

[Retrobyter]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:41 AM, Starise said:

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Shalom, Starise.

The definition of the word used, namely הָרוּחַ or "haaruwach," translated as "the spirit," has as its PRIMARY definition "the wind!" It can represent a person's "breath," but it is just an impersonal blast of air. God gave it when He puffed into Adam's nostrils the puff of life, and the man began to breathe on his own. When a person has "breathed his last," he exhales and it goes back into the air to mix with all the other breezes and winds that drive the molecules of the air. God is a "Spirit"- a "Wind," and He is THE Driving Force that created this earth and its skies! THAT is how the breath of a person goes back to God who gave it. One should not make it out to be more than it is. It is NOT "the true person, apart from the body." Nor is the "soul" since "soul" is the word used to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh," which means an "air-breathing creature!"

It's correct to say that 'one doesn't "have" a soul, one IS a soul.' But, one must take this to the next logical conclusion and recognize that this means we don't "have" an air-breathing creature, we ARE air-breathing creatures! Adam WAS an air-breathing creature, until he died. Then, he ceased to be an air-breathing creature, because he ceased to breathe air. He ceased to be a "soul." Pretty simple, really.

BUT, that doesn't mean that his death and decay in the ground is the end of his existence! To the contrary, the Bible, both Old Testament and New, repeatedly tells us that there will be a resurrection of those who belong to the Messiah at His coming! I believe that goes all the way back to Adam, as the forefathers of the Messiah. EVERYONE who looked forward to a Messiah by sacrificing an animal in anticipation of the Messiah's Sacrifice is one of the Messiah's loved ones! 

On 2/14/2024 at 7:41 AM, Starise said:

We also have Paul talking about leaving his "tent" physical body and being with the Lord. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

Yes, this is true, BUT it doesn't say that it's an IMMEDIATE transfer! This is a common mistake among Christians. One should ALWAYS check the context of the verses one uses. Here's the context of 2 Corinthians 5:6 and 8: Pay attention to verses 4 and 9-11!

2 Corinthians 5:1-11 (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle (Greek: σκῆνος = skeenos = "tent") were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (Greek: ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς = "en tois ouranois" = "in-the-skies"). 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven (Greek: τὸ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ = "to ex ouranou" = "the-[one] out of-[the]-sky"): 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit. 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (Greek: φανερωθῆναι δεῖ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ = "fanerootheenai dei emprosthen tou beematos tou Christou" = "we-shall-appear must in-front of-the tribunal of-the Messiah"); that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Notice here that verse 4 reflects what was already said in the previous letter to the believers at Korinth:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8)

55 "O death, where [is] thy sting?
O grave, where [is] thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14)

56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, "mortality shall be swallowed up of life" at the SECOND COMING of our Lord! And, we'll stand and give account of our lives before the tribunal of the Messiah when He is reigning in Jerusalem!

On 2/14/2024 at 7:41 AM, Starise said:

The Thief on the cross would be with the Lord THAT DAY in paradise.

The problem with this is that it was IMPOSSIBLE for it to be "THAT DAY!" Consider this:

First of all, "paradise" is an English transliteration of the Greek word παράδεισος "paradeisos," which in turn is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew word # "pardeec" (pronounced "par-DACE"). All three words then mean "a park," specifically, a "park of trees" or an "orchard." It's related to the Persian word meaning "a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters."

3857 paradeisos παράδεισος (par-ad'-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare פַרְדֵּס pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
-- paradise.

Found in Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7.

6508 pardeec (pardec) פַרְדֵּס (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park:
-- forest, orchard.

Found in Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; and Song of Solomon 4:13.

Furthermore, it is never said that "Paradise" was in the "heart of the earth," even for a short while. BUT, Revelation 2:7 gives us a clear clue as to its location:

Speaking to the messenger ("angel") of the church at Ephesus, Yeeshuwa` said in ...

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saithunto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of THE TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of THE PARADISE OF GOD."

And, we find the "tree of life" mentioned again in Revelation 22:2:

Revelation 22:1-4 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it (the New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, [was there] THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

So, either the Paradise of God IS the New Jerusalem, or it is WITHIN the New Jerusalem, and right now, we're told two facts:

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

Note: He did NOT say that He was returning to TAKE US THERE!

He said that He was coming again to receive them (and us) unto Himself.

Supplemental to this, one should note that Revelation 22:1-3 says,

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: ἡ σκηνὴ = hee skeenee = "the tent") of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God."

Thus, the New Jerusalem is called a "skeenee" and refers to Avraham's "tents" or "Bedouin tents" as their "houses":

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek:  ἐν σκηναῖς κατοικήσας =  "en skeenais katoikeesas"  = "in tents dwelling") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

It's also interesting that Avraham "looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God," and that is probably the same New Jerusalem where the tree of life can be found! And, we also read,

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come (currently in the process of coming) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: ἀλλὰ προσεληλύθατε Σιὼν ὄρει καὶ πόλει θεοῦ ζῶντος Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ = "alla proseleeluthate Zioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos Ierousaleem epouranioo" = "but ye-are-in-the-process-of-coming to-Zion mountain and city of-God living Jerusalem above-the-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

And, the New Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above the sky or in outer space, IS a city with twelve foundations and whose builder and maker is God!

Secondly, even though He probably spoke Aramaic, Yeeshuwa` is translated into Greek as saying,

23:43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, "Ἀμήν λέγω σοι σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ."

Transliterated, this becomes:

23:43 Kai eipen autoo ho Ieesous, "Ameen legoo soi seemeron met' emou esee en too paradeisoo."

Translated word-for-word into English, we get...

23:43 And said to-him the Yeeshuwa`/Jesus, "Truth I-say to-you (singular) today with me you-will-be in the park."

My question is this: Since it was a struggle to say anything from a cross meant to slowly suffocate the victim to death, what would He say to satisfy the thief without going into a lengthy discourse?

So, did He actually mean "that very day," or was he talking about "that very day" from the thief's perspective? Yeeshuwa` KNEW that both he and Himself would die that day before the sun set. It had to be so in order to fulfill prophecy, even though this occurred before the Jews asked Pilate to make their deaths swift to be finished before the Passover began at sundown, i.e., before the thief's legs were broken to hasten his suffocation.

However, Yeeshuwa` told Miryam ("Mary") at the tomb,

John 20:17 (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, 

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them,

'I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

It's unclear whether He meant right then or 40 days later, but it's not important to this argument. He hadn't seen His Father, yet. So, there is NO WAY that He was in the New Jerusalem after His death, and that's where "Paradise" is.

There is one other explanation: He wasn't talking about the Paradise of God! He was just talking about ANY orchard, such as the orchard in which the Garden Tomb is found! It's possible that He was still referring to the future Resurrection, but that the thief's resurrection would be in that location where he was buried, also in the same park! It would seem to be the same day to the thief: One minute he was breathing his last on his cross, and the next minute he is waking up in a park of trees where he had been buried!

On 2/14/2024 at 7:41 AM, Starise said:

The book of Ecclesiastes is unique in that it was written in an almost humanist way. It is written mainly from the vantage point of what happens to a man aside from the Lord, the way we would see it without Christ. From the vantage point of a natural man, life is pointless as Richard Dawkins says or said. 

As I said above, Shlomoh haMelekh (the King Solomon) was aware of the truth from the Scriptures, both the Torah that they had, and of which he had a copy, but he also knew of his own father's psalms and probably sang them himself on occasions.

And, it seems that you've neglected his conclusions to this book:

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (KJV)

3 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

Both David his father and he himself were "messiahs" or "christs." They were men who were anointed to be king of Israel on God's behalf. They also knew that the ULTIMATE Messiah would come from their line to be the King FOREVER! They didn't know who He would be, but they knew OF Him, as much as Moses wrote and what the Spirit of God would reveal to them!

On 2/14/2024 at 7:41 AM, Starise said:

Thats why these things need to have context. I am not in agreement with the idea our bodies and souls lay in the ground 'dead'. I don't believe the bible in totality supports the idea. Scriptures that seem to make that conclusion are based on the naturalistic view of what happens to the body and they don't give credence to the soul. Depending on the verse and context there can be great confusion over this.

The answer is simpler than you're making it out to be. A "soul" IS the air-breathing body! A body that doesn't breathe is simply a corpse, and is no longer a "soul." One should NOT "give credence" to the idea that a "soul" is something apart from the body! 

On 2/14/2024 at 7:41 AM, Starise said:

The Lord can destroy both the body AND soul in hell. That context would seem to point to death of a soul. Anything apart from God is spiritual death and there is such a thing as eternal death. Annihilationists need to explain away hell and the eternal nature of it which really isn't possible in full context. The death described is eternal death. 

I don't believe in annihilation of the person. Each person MUST give account for his or her actions done while alive, and must suffer the consequences of those actions.

That being said, it's very important to understand what the Greek word was that was translated as "hell" in this verse.

The verse is Matthew 10:28; here's the Greek:

10:28   καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεινόντων τὸ σῶμα τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβηθήτε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

This is transliterated as ...

10:28 Kai mee fobeetheete apo toon apokteinontoon to sooma teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai; fobeetheete de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee.

This is translated word-for-word into English as ...

10:28 And not [you (plural)]-fear from those-who slay-away the body of-those but air-breathing-creature not they-can slay-away; but<-->[you (plural)]-fear rather the-[One] who-can also air-breathing-creature and body destroy-away in Gei-Hinnowm.

Yeeshuwa`, doing the talking, is warning people to fear GOD who, through His Messiah, can destroy both the air-breathing-creature and the body, too, at the Judgment Seat of the Messiah in the Valley of Hinnowm, just outside the southeast wall of the Old City of Jerusalem, between the trash heap on the south side and the Golden Gate on the east side of the city, where the King's tribunal was set for judgment!

 

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2024 at 10:54 AM, Scott Free said:

The Bible talks of three heavens: atmosphere(terrestrial), starry space(the Universe) and God's dwelling place. Seems we are talking about states of awareness more than separate locations, because, the actions in each are mingled together affecting each other as a whole.

 

Shalom, Scott Free.

Actually, it doesn't. This is a COMMON ERROR first propagated by ... whom? I first encountered it in the teachings of my father who was an independent Baptist preacher associated with the Baptist Bible Fellowship in Springfield, MO. However, I've seen older sources, such as Rev. C. I. Scofield in his Scofield Reference Edition of the Bible (KJV). On page 1238, in the center margin close to 2 Corinthians 12:2, the note said, "1st heaven: of clouds; 2nd, of stars; third, God's abode."

This is an ASSUMPTION that attempts to explain what Paul meant by "being caught up to the third heaven." However, I believe that PETER had a better explanation for the "three heavens":

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus, Peter explained it as the "third heaven" chronologically rather than spatially! That is, the "heaven" was "third" IN TIME, not IN DISTANCE from the earth's surface!

[Scott Free]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is an ASSUMPTION

That is absolutely true. I love your take on the matter. It ties into the following scriptures. I am not clear on what it exactly means by New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. We do not know the history of New Jerusalem before she encounters Earth, except that she was constructed and traveled to reach her destination.

"I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race." Revelation 21:2

"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name." Revelation 3:12

Edited February 18 by Scott Free