Daniel 7

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Ha, just spotted this and found it interestingly funny, a blast from the past for me, in that the Church of Christ does not read Revelation as it goes through the Bible word by word in it's worship services  because it is dependent upon Daniel for understanding; and they cannot read both at the same time in a worship service format.

Really that was the answer I received from the CoC when I asked why are they skipping Revelation. It was at that time I exited  the church and moved on. Nice people but odd way  of thinking.

Anyway thanks for the flashback!

I am not quite sure what you are saying.. but I may be able to respond to this IF you mean that Revelation should be skipped .. etc.  NO!

What I found in my study of  accepted interpretations of Daniel is that Daniel has been interpreted by looking to Revelation. Daniel is so complicated and difficult. 
 

Also, in the earlier chapters of Daniel the actors and events can be found in our history books thus providing comfort and support to their interpretations. But as the chapters move on they do not follow in a  historical or chronological manner. There is a repeating of the kingdoms and a different message being inserted using very different symbols. As Daniel moves even further, the actors and events in Daniel become much more spiritual and less literal. The interpreter can not match the many difficult verses to our history books and that begins the necessity to have to treat them as though they are end time prophecies; hence, let’s go look into Revelation since Daniel and Revelation must agree. 
 

When verses in Revelation seem to point back to Daniel, then Daniel is made to agree with the perceived interpretation in Revelation. Thus, they will agree and two birds are killed at the same time. But this is a very bad approach to interpreting either book. 
 

God gave Daniel to the Jews for them, not only to document all the events that would take place after they were taken captive to their return to Jerusalem, but He incorporated the most important and unbelievable prophecies WITHIN that same “restoration” prophecy that revealed His first coming, the Cross, the setting up of His church. 
 

Meaning, Daniel is not an end time prophecy but mostly covers the period from 606 BC to approximately 500 AD when His earthly church is appropriated by the little horn. 
 

Thus, there is no need to look to the end times to place or interpret Daniel or look within Revelation to try and match Daniel or it. It was given to the Jews to read, study and interpret BEFORE the coming of their Messiah… 

Revelation has its own definite structure or presentation and does not reflect the structure in Daniel. The book of Daniel is given with many strict and defined borders and boundaries. It keeps the 4 kingdoms separate and allows us to easily identify them and keeps (should keep) our interpretations WITHIN those very strict borders and boundaries. Revelation is not structured that way.. it is not presented that way, and the borders and boundaries found in Daniel that MUST be honored to reveal their true interpretations are not found in Revelation. There is not that “protection” built into the verses and structure of Revelation to allow us to interpret Daniel. 

Certainly, both books must and will agree but so many of the symbols in Revelation are found THROUGHOUT the OT - not just Daniel. 

[Charlie744]

On 2/18/2024 at 2:18 AM, Charlie744 said:

Thanks. Why are you looking in Revelation to try and interpret Daniel? 
 

Daniel must be interpreted on its own. Everything is in Daniel to interpret itself:

God has given us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms in Daniel and they cover the period of 606 BC to the end of time. Egypt and Assyria are not mentioned or a part of the 4 kingdoms. You really can not bring them in to Daniel. 
 

If they are found to be included in Revelation, that is fine, but they are already destroyed before Daniel begins.

 

If you exclude any reference to Revelation then can you see that the clay is found within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? 
 

Can you see the 4th kingdom is no different than the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms having 2 parts of a man’s body and each of those two parts having the same metal type?

The only exception is that God inserted a non-metallic element WITHIN the 4th kingdom to symbolize His people. 
 

Again, you are needing the image to have 5 kingdoms ONLY TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE 7 KINGDOMS IN REVELATION. 
 

The interpretation of Revelation will take care of itself. 
 

Please consider just Daniel. 
So, how about this:

1) The clay within the feet AND the 10 toes are found WITHIN pagan Rome BEFORE THE KINGDOM IS DIVIDED. 
 

2) Daniel is broken into two separate sections- There is the “Dream sequence section” (big picture), and then an “Interpretation sequence section” (details of things WITHIN the “Dream sequence section.”

3) In verses 31 to 33 Daniel reveals the 4 kingdoms in order. This is the “blueprint” or structure of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God establishes in His image given to NEBUCHADNEZZAR. This image has nothing to do with Revelation. If these 4 kingdoms are found in Revelation that is fine, but in Daniel, there is only these 4.

4) The very next verse in 2:34 gives us the ONLY ACTION that takes place WITHIN the “Dream sequence section.” Here we learn he “stone” (Messiah AT HIS FIRST COMING DURING THE TIME OF PAGAN ROME) will strike the image on the FEET of the image. Here is the “TIMING” of the 4 kingdoms being revealed. This is the only way to interpret how many kingdoms there are AND when they are being discussed in Daniel. If 2:34 does not reveal when the 4th kingdom is symbolically “divided,” there is absolutely no way anyone can identify the actors or events in the subsequent verses OR when they occur. 

5) This is exactly what every interpreter has done. They ALL recognize the stone is the Messiah but they contend it (stone strikes the image) is an end time event, and that 2:34 happens at the same time as 2:35. But there is a 2000 year period between 2:34 and 2:35. Verse 2:34 is the Messiah coming DURING the time of pagan Rome when He symbolically breaks apart the 2 elements WITHIN THE FEET. While 2:35 represents His second coming at the end of time. Again, these “Dream sequence verses,” 2:31 to 2:35, represent the “big picture” of the final 4 kingdoms that will come upon the earth (not literally the last two kingdoms on earth, but those found WITHIN God’s story found in Daniel), AND the only 2 actions that He wants to disclose or reveal IN THIS STORY.

6) Of course, the remaining verses in chapter 2 will  provide the “details” or the specific prophecies that will take place WITHIN this 4 kingdom structure: and these are recorded in the “Interpretation sequence section” later provided by Gabriel to Daniel. 
 

7) Without 2:34 symbolizing the Messiah coming during pagan Rome, we could not identify the “timing” of these verses OR those in chapters 7,8,9 or 11. They would be thrown into the future and treated as “end time events.”

8) So, the Messiah arrives during the time of pagan Rome. He (cross) will break apart the CLAY from the iron WITHIN the feet (only). Meaning, the cross will separate the “pottery clay” (those Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah) from both the “ceramic clay” (those Jews who would be found to not accept Jesus as their Messiah) from the “iron” (pagan Rome kingdom) found WITHIN the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome (these are found in the “Interpretation sequence” verses of 2:37 - 43). 
 

9) This also reveals the timing of the “dividing” of the 4th kingdom. Pagan Rome that will continue for the next 400 years when in chapter 7 Daniel reveals it will be slain and its body is destroyed. But as a result of the cross, God will “set up” His spiritual kingdom on earth. This is the “divided” kingdom BUT ON EARTH it will take on the physical appearance of His church which we will find in chapter 7 is appropriated by the little horn.

10) Consequently, this also tells us that the 10 toes WERE IN EXISTENCE BEFORE 2:34 or BEFORE THE STONE STRIKES THE FEET OF THE IMAGE AND BREAKS IT APART FROM THE IRON GRIP OF PAGAN ROME. Thus, it cannot symbolize 10 kingdoms coming AFTER the demise of pagan Rome. They HAD to already be found at the end of the feet of PAGAN ROME.

So, please try and interpret Daniel without any consideration to Revelation. When Daniel is properly interpreted, God will send whatever symbols or interpretations found within Daniel to Revelation. 

 

 

 

@Sister I just wanted to mention and ensure you are aware that the us of CAPS in my responses are NOT meant to represent anything other than my desire to emphasize a certain point. There is absolutely NO intention of wanting to come across as disrespectful or yelling!

In my mind, the times I tend to write in CAPS is usually the opportunity for me to reveal or state this is where there is a major difference between my interpretation and (usually) today’s accepted interpretation- whether that is articulated by you or any other member in this forum. As I have mentioned many times, the majority of today’s accepted interpretations are very close to yours and certainly not mine.

In any event, I look forward to your response. Best wishes, Charlie 

 

[Sister]

On 2/20/2024 at 11:18 AM, Charlie744 said:

@Sister I just wanted to mention and ensure you are aware that the us of CAPS in my responses are NOT meant to represent anything other than my desire to emphasize a certain point. There is absolutely NO intention of wanting to come across as disrespectful or yelling!

In my mind, the times I tend to write in CAPS is usually the opportunity for me to reveal or state this is where there is a major difference between my interpretation and (usually) today’s accepted interpretation- whether that is articulated by you or any other member in this forum. As I have mentioned many times, the majority of today’s accepted interpretations are very close to yours and certainly not mine.

In any event, I look forward to your response. Best wishes, Charlie 

 

Hi Charlie

Caps are not a problem at all.  You could reply the whole post in caps and I wouldn't get offended. I actually prefer using them myself for emphasis also but cautious not to offend.

So now we know that neither of us will get offended, lets go caps when required!!!!!

[Sister]

On 2/18/2024 at 5:18 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thanks. Why are you looking in Revelation to try and interpret Daniel? 

 

Sorry about that Charlie.  It's like this.....when you've walked through a door you find out what's inside.  It cuts to the chase.  My initial response to you was very lengthy and I was writing it over a couple of days.  In the end, I deleted the whole thing because I found that missing key which I had all along, and gave it to you so you could take a peek inside.  It saves much time of going back and forth.  Whether you can see the same thing inside that room that I can see, we will find out.  I am just pointing to where it is exactly.

[Sister]

On 2/18/2024 at 5:18 PM, Charlie744 said:

 

Daniel must be interpreted on its own. Everything is in Daniel to interpret itself:

God has given us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms in Daniel and they cover the period of 606 BC to the end of time. Egypt and Assyria are not mentioned or a part of the 4 kingdoms. You really can not bring them in to Daniel. 

 

Hi Charlie

I do not agree with this.  If I had not read Revelation chapter 17, I would of been just as confused as Daniel was.  He was given the interpretation, but still did not understand fully.  And if Daniel could not fully understand it, no one else back then could.  It was just too far back in time to make any sense.  The latter kingdom was referring to the time when Christ returns and not the first time he came. 

King Neb was shown and understood in the end that it is God who raises kings and kingdoms, and it also God who subdues them.  None of those kingdoms were everlasting, but the one who who smote the image, is of an everlasting kingdom.

Christ is not ruling yet.  Things have to run it's course first before God sends him back.  The kingdoms of man will be given into his hands.  He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.  His kingdom will be known throughout the whole earth and all will kneel down to him.  His laws will be official and all will have to abide.  Once they see his power and the judgement of the nations leading up to, and at his reutrn, none can refuse or deny that God chose him to be king.  For he is worthy.

 

Matthew 13:17   For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[Charlie744]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Charlie

I do not agree with this.  If I had not read Revelation chapter 17, I would of been just as confused as Daniel was.  He was given the interpretation, but still did not understand fully.  And if Daniel could not fully understand it, no one else back then could.  It was just too far back in time to make any sense.  The latter kingdom was referring to the time when Christ returns and not the first time he came. 

King Neb was shown and understood in the end that it is God who raises kings and kingdoms, and it also God who subdues them.  None of those kingdoms were everlasting, but the one who who smote the image, is of an everlasting kingdom.

Christ is not ruling yet.  Things have to run it's course first before God sends him back.  The kingdoms of man will be given into his hands.  He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.  His kingdom will be known throughout the whole earth and all will kneel down to him.  His laws will be official and all will have to abide.  Once they see his power and the judgement of the nations leading up to, and at his reutrn, none can refuse or deny that God chose him to be king.  For he is worthy.

 

Matthew 13:17   For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

Well, I certainly agree with you on most of what you mentioned but I don’t believe by mentioning them they offer any support to your claim that of the 5 kingdoms of Daniel based on your study of Revelation.

In fact, I was thinking about your earlier comment on the 7 kingdoms in Revelation and how you identified them, and it provided me with the perfect reason not to look to Revelation.

In your study of the 7 kingdoms in Revelation you came up with the following (I hope I understood your earlier post):

1) you needed 7 kingdoms for the verse in Revelation and you came up with Assyria, Egypt and you still needed 5 more.

2) you looked the Daniel and found 5 because you used the 4th kingdom in Daniel’s image and counted it as two kingdoms with the last one still yet to come. 
 

If this is correct (not necessarily done in that exact mindset) it represents an example of not to look in Revelation to interpret Daniel. 
 

By trying to interpret the 7 kingdoms in Revelation you are requiring there are 5 kingdoms in Daniel. But once again, Daniel was written for the Jews and the prophecies of the restoration of His people, the city, etc., and the coming Messiah. 
 

Please also look in Daniel 7:3 and 17. It in in  Daniel’s vision where he learns there are 4 and only 4 beasts (not kingdoms)

7:3 - they come out of the sea, 

7:17  - they come out of the earth. 
 

Daniel can and should be interpreted on its own (and it will also be supported by verses in those prophetic books before it). 
 

Charlie 

 

 

[Charlie744]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

Sorry about that Charlie.  It's like this.....when you've walked through a door you find out what's inside.  It cuts to the chase.  My initial response to you was very lengthy and I was writing it over a couple of days.  In the end, I deleted the whole thing because I found that missing key which I had all along, and gave it to you so you could take a peek inside.  It saves much time of going back and forth.  Whether you can see the same thing inside that room that I can see, we will find out.  I am just pointing to where it is exactly.

The door you opened was the door of Revelation. The door of Daniel is down the street. 
 

You certainly can peek inside each door. But a peek inside will not be enough to understand what is going on beyond the door. You may quickly see 7 chairs but you cannot make a claim they are the same chairs in the other door. Go back and peek into the first door and you will see a separate set of 4 chairs (7:3, 17). 
 

I can assure you that no matter how complicated and difficult Daniel is to unpack and interpret Daniel, God has provided all the information in these 12 chapters to reveal His prophetic messages. 
 

MOST of Daniel is revealing the actors and events that will cover the time from the Jews captivity in Babylon to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (33/34 AD). 
 

This is the restoration of the Jews and their city and ALL the other elements/articles that MUST be fully restored BEFORE the final article in the Sanctuary can be restored- the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah. And Jesus did arrive on the 1st day of the last week in the prophecy to fulfill His God given mission (9:24). 
 

After the cross, Daniel will tell us about the destruction of the Temple, the beginning of His Church, the slaying of the 4th beast (pagan Rome), and of course, the rising of the little horn out FROM the 4th beast of pagan Rome (obviously, he had to come out of pagan Rome BEFORE it was slain in around 470 AD). 
 

But there are only 4 beasts, 4 kingdoms that God authorized or established within His prophetic story of Daniel (7:3, 17). 
 

The little horn and the 10 horns / kings HAD TO BE IN EXISTENCE DURING THE 4th kingdom/beast period of pagan Rome. They both CAME OUT of the 4th beast / kingdom 7:7-8. But neither could be come out UNTIL the stone (Messiah) stuck the FEET of the image (2:34), and broke apart the iron from the clay. 
 

God would now be able to choose those of His people (clay) He could use (pottery clay) to establish and preach the Good News to the world. They would begin His church. Those of His people (clay) that rejected He is their Messiah would remain as “ceramic clay,” for they were too hardened for God to use to build His church. And of course, the iron would continue to symbolize pagan Rome.

All of this would take place within the 4 beast / kingdoms of the metal man image (before the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy in 33/34 AD. Meaning, there is 4 and only 4 beasts / kingdoms. 
 

Daniel also tells us this 4th beast/kingdom will be “divided.” But it is a division of the 4th kingdom not an additional kingdom. God only brought out of the sea or the earth 4 beast/kingdoms. This “divided” kingdom that would come into being AFTER the 4th beast/kingdom of pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed (7:11), would be replaced when the little horn would gain full power and sit atop the beast/kingdom (7:23-24). Also, once again, Gabriel confirms there are still only 4 (beast/kingdoms) in 7:23. 

This “divided” kingdom would become known as papal Rome which began after the Cross as His church. As it grew both in size and power, it was taken over by those Gentiles that sought power and control over this powerful movement. At the end of the day, the bishop of Rome would win the battle for supremacy (over the other bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch). He would become know as the pope of Rome (little horn). 
 

So the timing of all of these events must take place before around 500 AD when the little horn comes to power.

Please consider the timing of these events and how they must speak to the most important people and event in the history of mankind; Jesus and the cross. 
 

Finally, did you notice the 10 toes of chapter 2, referred to as the 10 horns in chapter 7, referred to as the 10 kings (7:24), are the same 10 but revealed or symbolized in 3 different ways, came out of the 4th beast / kingdom of pagan Rome?

Therefore, they existed before the cross, after the cross and would continue until the end of time. They can not refer to a 10 nation union or power coming in the future. They can not refer to a number of EU nations or Islamic group, etc. 

Just as the little horn began around 500 AD and will continue until he is destroyed without human hands, the 10 were in existence in chapter 2 - before pagan Rome was destroyed. They too will remain until the coming Messiah.