Tithing...

[choir loft]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:49 AM, Gabriel80 said:

Yes, this has been on my heart lately.

I am unfortunately double minded in this and currently unstable in my ways about it at the moment.

I have brought this to God in prayer but... I think I need to be more earnest in it.

The church that I attend is a candidate to give to... but I am not certain the Holy Spirit is confirming this is where resources should go.

In my flesh... I feel conflicted as I want to see God's resources go to local need in the metropolitan area I am near.  There is severe homelessness/ drug abuse/ and I am sure children and widows affected in the mess.

BUT at the same time... the charities run there are very few Christian ones.  The few that are aligned with the faith "disguise" there operations... where they talk around Christ but never directly say his name or mention sharing the gospel directly in the shelters or rehab facilities.

And maybe they have to do that in this area... I dont know.  That concerns me though.

And I also feel a need to find a charity that helps with the situation in Israel.  But...  I just never know how to be sure that the money is actually reaching the mission.

Do you just give and pray to God and thank him for his blessing and faithfulness and think not another thought about where or who you gave to?

Or is there a lesson in the parable where the workers were expected to "invest" the money their master gave them wisely?  (The parable where one of them just hid the money and earned nothing.)

I am looking for guidance here spiritually and literally (like if you have some ideas for solid Christian ministries in the US and Israel... not limited to them of course.)

 

Many thanks and God bless.

HYPOCRISY of the church is cancerous...especially when it comes to the subject of tithing. 

Everyone is told that salvation in Jesus' name is free, BUT WHEN one joins a church after being saved one is told they owe a religious TAX for the rest of their natural life....a tithe of between 10% and 20% depending upon the insistence of the particular mob of con artists one joins.

It is a sad fact of church life that the LAW of Moses, given to us BY GOD, has been denied by the church and REPLACED with its own traditions, rules and obligations....NONE OF WHICH ARE BIBLICAL.  The church today is in THE SAME POSITION as the pharisees of Jesus' time.  The Jewish rabbinate contrived to establish its own rules and traditions that had little to do with God's LAW, despite their hypocritical statements otherwise.  In the same way, the church has also abandoned God's Holy LAW and established its own pagan traditions and rules to replace the LAW.  It is falsely claimed that Jesus abolished the LAW when the words of Christ denied it (Matt 5:17).  What we have here is a blatant con job forced upon unknowing people to abide by that which God did not intend.

What does the LAW say about tithing?

There are specifications and exceptions, but generally speaking one was to set aside 10% of the first fruits of one's labor.  At the end of a preset time one was allowed TO SPEND IT ON WHATEVER ONE'S HEART DESIRED including but not limited to strong drink, personal items of clothing or a trip to another city to visit relatives and friends.  Only after 7 years have elapsed is one to give one's tithe to the temple.  The form of the tithe was established also.  One didn't generally give cash, but did give livestock and grain.  

I invite the interested reader to engage in a study of Exodus and Leviticus regarding the divine ordinance of tithing AND IGNORE THE CHURCHY INSISTENCE THAT WE OWE THE PASTOR A LIVING.   If he's that worried about his income he can GO OUT AND GET A REAL JOB.   St. Paul did it, why shouldn't a pastor...who in many cases lives better than most of the members of his congregation anyway.

In case you haven't guessed, I reject the insistence that 10% of my income be donated to the church.   I do give some money for the maintenance of the venue, but also give elsewhere.   What the total amounts to isn't anyone's business but my own....certainly not that of some religious leader who doesn't work for it or deserve it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited February 25 by choir loft

[Gabriel80]

@choir loft

I understand why you have written.

I probably, out of my own sin, dealt with the the title of my original post without respect for the Lord's Word.

What I should have titled it was- giving.

As I was/am feeling called to give of the riches God has blessed me with.

Thank you for your word.

[RdJ]

-

Edited February 27 by RdJ
nm

[RdJ]

-

Edited February 27 by RdJ
nm

[choir loft]

17 hours ago, Gabriel80 said:

@choir loft

I understand why you have written.

I probably, out of my own sin, dealt with the the title of my original post without respect for the Lord's Word.

What I should have titled it was- giving.

As I was/am feeling called to give of the riches God has blessed me with.

Thank you for your word.

One must live according to the ordinances of conscience.  

I do not intend to belittle so much as a penny of your personal dedication to religious  or social organizations.  What one does with one's money is one's own business...affair.

THAT is the problem with the dogma of tithing.   Does one's money belong at home or does it belong to an organization like a church that does absolutely nothing in return?

If you put your money in a bank account you expect a return from it...you expect interest.

If you invest in a money market account you expect a return on your investment.

If you give your money to a real estate deal you expect a profit.

BUT if you give your money to a church you get NOTHING in return....absolutely nothing.   The argument is that the church uses it for God's purpose, but churches don't do that any more.  It all disappears in church ministries that do nothing to spread the gospel....nothing at all....which is why churches are dying today.  The hypocrisy of it reaches into the wallets of everyone who donates to them.

As I wrote earlier, I donate ..... but not all of it to my congregation....certainly not 10%.   My donations are not EVER intended to pass as some sort of sacrifice for private sins against God and my failure to suffer fools.

When I was a boy...a very long time ago...the church actually performed a few minor things to assist my mother, who was an only parent because my dad died from cancer.   Today, the pastor won't even come to the house to visit.   If one has a question to ask or a statement to make one has to suffer a screening process to enjoy the presence of the pastor.....and then only when he is flanked by bodyguards.

It's a different world today....one I am not happy to associate with.  I give as I am called to give ... and its nobody's business to dictate how much or when.

HYPOCRISY of the church is insidious.  

On the one hand the church will declare it isn't bound by God's LAW, but on the other hand it will quote God's LAW by saying the congregation owes 10% tithe, by the LAW.

Which is it boys and girls?  Shall we follow God's LAW or shall we not?  Picking and choosing what we like and don't like is hypocrisy ... and nobody respects a hypocrite ... certainly not God.

Funny how money skews everything....even religion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited February 26 by choir loft

[Neighbor]

19 hours ago, choir loft said:

BUT if you give your money to a church you get NOTHING in return....absolutely nothing.   The argument is that the church uses it for God's purpose, but churches don't do that any more.  It all disappears in church ministries that do nothing to spread the gospel....nothing at all....which is why churches are dying today.  The hypocrisy of it reaches into the wallets of everyone who donates to them.

Was that  pulled out of the "miser's creed"? 

That I should tithe and gift in the name of my Lord and savior to the local body of Christ Jesus expecting a return that I may see personally today seems as though it would be a joyless venture for sure.

 Do not give to get nor give only so that the gospel is dispatched into all the world.  There is great need at home, in one's own neighborhood. And yes filling that need does come at expense great expense. Some do give sacrificially as others withhold from sharing. Let each have their own reward.

 I know of churches that are growing both numerically and in spirit. That are filled with doers of the word of God that care one for another and that find great joy when gathered together in worship with the Holy Spirit in the midst of all that are present. It is grandly awesome to behold !

Praise God!

 

[FJK]

21 hours ago, choir loft said:

THAT is the problem with the dogma of tithing.   Does one's money belong at home or does it belong to an organization like a church that does absolutely nothing in return?

ALL things come from God without whom there would be nothing, do you use money wisely for his purposes or do you stingily hoard it to yourself to use for your own purposes?

Consider the deeper meaning of he parable of the talents, consider also Judas and his relationship with money.

When you give to God's work, you don't put an attachment on it that it only be used the way you want it to be and only for your own benefit without regard to how he might intend it being used to further his purpose.

Follow God's rules and you will prosper and have more of your life available to enjoy his creation, follow your own rules and you are on your to provide your own prosperity, something that will consume the whole of your life.

God gave you that choice, you're free to make it as you choose.

[choir loft]

5 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Was that  pulled out of the "miser's creed"? 

That I should tithe and gift in the name of my Lord and savior to the local body of Christ Jesus expecting a return that I may see personally today seems as though it would be a joyless venture for sure.

 Do not give to get nor give only so that the gospel is dispatched into all the world.  There is great need at home, in one's own neighborhood. And yes filling that need does come at expense great expense. Some do give sacrificially as others withhold from sharing. Let each have their own reward.

 I know of churches that are growing both numerically and in spirit. That are filled with doers of the word of God that care one for another and that find great joy when gathered together in worship with the Holy Spirit in the midst of all that are present. It is grandly awesome to behold !

Praise God!

 

You go on about churches you know.

I know something quite different, however.  Been there and done that and came away with nothing to show for it except testimony to people who bury their heads in the sands of false dogma and tradition.

Did I write one ought not give?   I did not.  

I wrote with hope....that someone who hasn't been manipulated into divesting themselves of their hard earned cash might consider future donation$ in activities that actually WORK to honor God's purposes - not those of man.

AGAIN I state that churches, which falsely state the LAW of Moses has been abolished - demand a 10% portion of income from their parishioners according to the LAW.   This is hypocrisy in action.  

If you like that sort of thing, if you can't or won't see it, then by all means continue in it, but please don't ascribe holiness to it because it's false teaching from beginning to end.

I wrote that each must give according to the dictates of his or her own conscience.   Do you need a further explanation of the meaning of these words?  Apparently you do because you've deliberately misconstrued every syllable of my post....all of it.   

I have been grievously betrayed by two major institutions in my life: my country and my church.   Both are no longer uppermost in my respect.   I've seen what misplaced tithing can do....and what justified murder and destruction can do, which is nothing of value in the kingdom of God or those of mankind.

Did I say one ought not tithe?   I DID NOT.  

Tithing, as it is taught in our misguided congregations, is hypocrisy of the meanest sort.  If the reader wishes to follow the spirit of the pharisees into this profitless habit one is free to do so.  Just don't ask me to follow you into your erroneous habits.  Don't ask anyone who actually employs critical thinking to do so.  They'll prove church finance is foolishness every time.

You wrote that there is great need on one's own neighborhood.  Most churches do NOT attend to that need either in establishing a food bank or in promoting the gospel in active personal ways.  Read that again, please.  Most churches do NOT.  They have become self-centered social groups that are not interested in God, the Bible or in spiritual edification.  I've been there, friend.   I've seen what has become of churches that were once grand promoters of what you claim to be Biblically based generosity.  It's gone, my friend.  It's dead and gone.

If you still attend a church that actually promotes the gospel to your city, that still has real Bible studies (not diluted courses in middle school level motivational language), that actually USES donations for the good of the kingdom (that's the REAL return on investment, the real return in saved souls) and that promotes spiritual edification for members of the congregation (not politically correct group activities), THEN and only then ought you to understand that you sit among a group that is UNIQUE in America.

Because everywhere else the church is dying.   It's been dying since 1968.

It's not the miser's creed.  It's truth spoken to empty hearted people who refuse good teaching, hard facts and the way God leads us all to go these days.

I try to follow His lead.  Sad to say few do so among the churchy types.

So ... continue to give to your church or your political party or to whatever charity you please.

I DO NOT PRETEND TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR MONEY.    WHY ARE YOU INSISTING TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH WHAT IS MY OWN?   <---- this is the tradition of the pharisees......walk in it if you like.   I refuse to do so.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.. (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited February 27 by choir loft

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, choir loft said:

You go on about churches you know.

Yes I do! I love the many churches God has led me to worship at with many brethren in Christ Jesus.

I am NOT a tither, I would not even tip so little a percentage amount to a waiter or waitress for serving me food for my stomach.  I would think myself to be a terrible piker  to do that. I am a happy Christian, I give joyfully as the Holy Spirit leads me and feeds my spirit and soul.

[R. Hartono]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:49 PM, Gabriel80 said:

Yes, this has been on my heart lately.

I am unfortunately double minded in this and currently unstable in my ways about it at the moment.

I have brought this to God in prayer but... I think I need to be more earnest in it.

The church that I attend is a candidate to give to... but I am not certain the Holy Spirit is confirming this is where resources should go.

In my flesh... I feel conflicted as I want to see God's resources go to local need in the metropolitan area I am near.  There is severe homelessness/ drug abuse/ and I am sure children and widows affected in the mess.

BUT at the same time... the charities run there are very few Christian ones.  The few that are aligned with the faith "disguise" there operations... where they talk around Christ but never directly say his name or mention sharing the gospel directly in the shelters or rehab facilities.

And maybe they have to do that in this area... I dont know.  That concerns me though.

And I also feel a need to find a charity that helps with the situation in Israel.  But...  I just never know how to be sure that the money is actually reaching the mission.

Do you just give and pray to God and thank him for his blessing and faithfulness and think not another thought about where or who you gave to?

Or is there a lesson in the parable where the workers were expected to "invest" the money their master gave them wisely?  (The parable where one of them just hid the money and earned nothing.)

I am looking for guidance here spiritually and literally (like if you have some ideas for solid Christian ministries in the US and Israel... not limited to them of course.)

 

Many thanks and God bless.

NT Giving should be with cheer.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/296140-there-was-death-penalty-for-trespassers-of-tithe-rights/