Jayne Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,827 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,818 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 (edited) Before I tell you the story, let me share the teaching from the book of Romans. Chapter 7. Verses 4-6. The whole chapter is about, as a Christian, being released from the Law. Here are verses 4-6: "Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." OK, I'm getting to the story - one more thing. Some Christians think that the devil makes us sin - but he can't. He CAN plant the idea in the heart and mind and tell you if you don't DO or HAVE that thing that you will just die!! That's a lie from hell. You have the free will and strength in Christ to resist such things. The Bible says in the book of James [the half-brother of Jesus] that sin comes from our own evil desires that are already there. Paul says, in Romans here, that the LAW or any rule of conduct "arouses our evil desires". What? So are laws and rules a bad thing? No way. OK, the story.... I was once teaching 6th grade a LOOONG time ago. Before school computers. Before Google. It was the end of the year and we were preparing to take a few classes to the park for a field day. There was, next to the park, a Coca-Cola museum, a Bible museum, and a famous home with all sorts of interesting things and artifacts. EXPENSIVE THINGS. They all belonged to the same family. One artifact was a Ming vase - at LEAST from the 14th or 15th century! The class perked up for a few minutes at my telling that. But one young 6th grade boy was spellbound by that. As I said, it was before school computers and before Google. He checked out every "M" encyclopedia from the library and read all he could about Ming vases and the Ming dynasty. He asked me a whole HOST of questions in the days before us going. He was fascinated by the whole thing. While he was fascinated, I was getting an uneasy feeling about the whole thing, because I could tell that he was going to want to put HIS HANDS on the vase!! Nothing there was covered or far from touching ability, but everyone KNEW NOT to touch anything in the house. They explained it there and I discussed it in the classroom a week before going. I made a hard and fast rule. TOUCH NOTHING. The school nor I could afford to replace anything there. Whew! All my rule did was to "arouse his passions" for that vase!! Just like Paul said. Well, I made sure that I went with his group. We walked from the park across the street to see house and museum and Coca-Cola memorabilia. When we were in the room with the Ming vase, I made sure that I spotted it right off the bat. He spotted it too. Sharp kid. The tour guide gave a good speech in the room and then led us out to the next room. She asked the class to make a line and they did and followed her. My young man whom I worried about made sure - very sneakily and casually that he was the LAST in line! So I made sure that I was right behind him. I'm not sure how stealthily I did so. I didn't know what he might do. Pick it up? Toss it around? Shake it? There was just a soft velvet rope in front of the shelf that it was on. NOW WHAT GOOD DID THAT DO?!?! I didn't know what I was going to do. Scream at him? Tackle him? Distract him? Well the line was slow and just when the guide turned the corner out of that room and into the next - she couldn't be seen by us in the back of the line. And he took his chance. He didn't grab it. He didn't place his hands on it. He simply and softly reached out his left index finger and ever so gently touched the vase. You see, my rule, - which was a GOOD rule - just aroused his rebellious passions that were already there in his flesh. Just like Paul explains. Now I'm not going to tell you that I chastised him because I didn't. That's not the point of the story. And....I'm not going to tell you that I, MYSELF, didn't touch it either. Because I did. That's not the point of the story, either. My point? Our sin belongs to us and us alone. Not the devil. Not anyone else. Let us repent and come back to God. Edited February 27 by Jayne 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Adrien Posted February 27 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 4.16 Reputation: 416 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/22/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 I think young and not so young men may feel like this about women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,827 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,818 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, D. Adrien said: I think young and not so young men may feel like this about women. Yes, and diabetics about chocolate cake... ....and feuding in-laws about self-righteousness ....and porn addicts about the porn ....and siblings about jealousy ....and so on and so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Jayne said: My point? Our sin belongs to us and us alone. Not the devil. Not anyone else. Ah, but an interesting lesson might also be learned from it, one that maybe should be considered when we try to outlaw something or ban a political movement or candidate. It becomes more and more desirable when forbidden and creates an overpowering desire for it that overrides any thought about the consequences of having it, like happened with that apple in the garden. An unchanging aspect of human nature as such. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted February 27 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,067 Content Per Day: 3.29 Reputation: 1,466 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Jayne said: You see, my rule, - which was a GOOD rule - just aroused his rebellious passions that were already there in his flesh. Just like Paul explains. While I agree with what you have said, there is a strange case that needs to be taken care of. I'm not sure we can though. It is the case of Eve. Romans 5:12-17 tells us where this sinful nature comes from - Adam's transgression. Now Eve came from Adam BEFORE this transgression. What made Eve disobey God? Here are the points to consider: 1. Though commanded to eat from the Tree of Life, Adam and Eve did not 2. If Eve came from Adam before the transgression, why did she transgress 3. If evil was present in Adam and Eve then God, Who created them, included the Adamic nature (perish the thought) 4. If evil was not present with eve (and Adam) what provoked them I do have an opinion, but would like to hear other opinions, as mine is not a settled matter and easy to contradict. To set things off I have noted that Eve was tempted in the same way that Jesus was - with the world (1st Jn.2:16): 1. The fruit was nice to look upon - the lust of the eyes 2. The fruit was nice to eat - the lust of the flesh 3. The fruit made one wise - the pride of life Similarly, our Lord Jesus was tested: 1. Bread after 40 days of no food - the desire of the flesh 2. The Kingdoms of this world and their glory - the desire of the eyes 3. To prove divine connection - to be upheld by God no matter what - pride of life 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 16 minutes ago, AdHoc said: I do have an opinion, but would like to hear other opinions, as mine is not a settled matter and easy to contradict My opinion, which is a opinion based on more than scripture alone, is that Adam, and Eve as a part of him were given free will to choose their actions. The potential for evil, disobedience to God's rules of which there were only one at the time, was always there but was only a potential until Adam used his free will to make it his continuing nature by choosing disobedience over obedience of his own accord. My way of understanding it, and of understanding our sinful nature as it has been since the fall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,827 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,818 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, AdHoc said: While I agree with what you have said, there is a strange case that needs to be taken care of. I'm not sure we can though. It is the case of Eve. Romans 5:12-17 tells us where this sinful nature comes from - Adam's transgression. Now Eve came from Adam BEFORE this transgression. What made Eve disobey God? Here are the points to consider: 1. Though commanded to eat from the Tree of Life, Adam and Eve did not 2. If Eve came from Adam before the transgression, why did she transgress 3. If evil was present in Adam and Eve then God, Who created them, included the Adamic nature (perish the thought) 4. If evil was not present with eve (and Adam) what provoked them I do have an opinion, but would like to hear other opinions, as mine is not a settled matter and easy to contradict. To set things off I have noted that Eve was tempted in the same way that Jesus was - with the world (1st Jn.2:16): 1. The fruit was nice to look upon - the lust of the eyes 2. The fruit was nice to eat - the lust of the flesh 3. The fruit made one wise - the pride of life Similarly, our Lord Jesus was tested: 1. Bread after 40 days of no food - the desire of the flesh 2. The Kingdoms of this world and their glory - the desire of the eyes 3. To prove divine connection - to be upheld by God no matter what - pride of life Short answer - Eve was deceived. The devil's deception involved convincing her that God's words were incorrect. "Did God REALLY say?" Her sin began when she had a conversation with the devil and listened to him. It wasn't because she was stupid, just deceived. The devil didn't start with her because she was weaker than Adam. Adam whom the Bible was "with her" just deliberately disobeyed. Jesus says that the whole of humanity is deceived by the devil. Revelation 12:9. And after that initial deliberate disobedience, I'm sure that Adam was deceived in sin, too, during his lifetime. Two things: [1] Yes, Eve saw that the fruit was pleasant to the eye and good for food. But remember, God MADE it that way. Genesis 2:9. There's more to this than meets the eye. There's a sermon somewhere in that. [2] I've taught many times the relationship between Eve's sin, Jesus' temptation, and 1 John 2:15-17. So you are correct there making a correlation. In my opinion, the devil used and uses those tactics because those were the things that caused him to fall. He only uses what he knows. He was full of beauty and became prideful because of it. Ezekiel 28:12-13 and 17. Pride of life and lust of the eye. He thought he was higher than God. Isaiah 14:12-14 Pride of life 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, Jayne said: It wasn't because she was stupid, just deceived. I wonder though, if you know the rules and deliberately violate them, is it not a sin because you were deceived about it? We live in an age of deception, but does that deception, an age of calling good evil and evil good in all sorts of things, make us sinless when we sin? We are still the ones choosing to commit the sin, whether by deception about it being such or not. I can't bring myself to accept "The devil made me do it" as being a valid excuse before God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted February 27 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,067 Content Per Day: 3.29 Reputation: 1,466 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27 34 minutes ago, FJK said: My opinion, which is a opinion based on more than scripture alone, is that Adam, and Eve as a part of him were given free will to choose their actions. The potential for evil, disobedience to God's rules of which there were only one at the time, was always there but was only a potential until Adam used his free will to make it his continuing nature by choosing disobedience over obedience of his own accord. My way of understanding it, and of understanding our sinful nature as it has been since the fall. I agree with you. But what made him choose the way he went? Remember, the OP established a LAW in us. Adam did not have this Law of sin and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted February 27 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,827 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,818 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 27 17 minutes ago, FJK said: I wonder though, if you know the rules and deliberately violate them, is it not a sin because you were deceived about it? We live in an age of deception, but does that deception, an age of calling good evil and evil good in all sorts of things, make us sinless when we sin? We are still the ones choosing to commit the sin, whether by deception about it being such or not. I can't bring myself to accept "The devil made me do it" as being a valid excuse before God. You misunderstand. I am just quoting 1 Timothy 2:14. Eve was deceived and became the transgresor. The devil did not make her sin. She chose to out of deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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