Let me tell you a story.....you'll relate. LOL!!

[Marilyn C]

1 minute ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. You make a very interesting debating partner. But in this posting you'll have to reconsider. If God said that that Adam would live for ever IF he ate from the Tree of Life, he could not have died. But he did - showing that he did not eat. The alternative is that "ETERNAL Life" is not ETERNAL and God made a mistake. Besides, why would God block the way to the Tree if you could die anyway?

Interesting. So, did not Adam and Eve have Eternal (ongoing life)life before they sinned? And it seems the tree of life is needed in the New Jerusalem. 

The question is `Does just one eating of the tree give eternal life or does it maintain life?`

[AdHoc]

9 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Well he told God why: She gave him and then he ate.

When sexual sin doesn't bother you at all, but it does bother your partner and you give in, that's like this. Adam wanted to have a partner. Maybe idolatry, that she was more important than God. I think without her he would never have sinned. 

And maybe because God created him in His own Image. Adam was created in the Image of Jesus. 2 captains on a ship. He wants to be God too. Not naive and be treated like a kid that just has to obey while you have no clue why.

They did not know God as He is. If they had they wouldn't have sinned and if satan hadn't sinned I don't think they would ever have sinned.

I agree with you that Adam followed his wife's path and ate for solidarity. The Lord did not rebuke Adam for the eating first off. He rebuked him for "hearkening unto his wife"!

But Romans 7 establishes why we commit TRESPASSES. It establishes "sin" (singular) as a LAW in our members. Thus, the question is; "If they were created without this Law of sin and death, what made them trespass? Something else must have caused Eve to disbelieve God and think that Satan was correct."

[AdHoc]

3 minutes ago, RdJ said:

I always thought: tree of Life: This is eternal Life that they may know You. So had they eaten from it they would have known God and not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (get to know satan by experience)

I hadn't even thought about that then they also would not die. Had they taken it afterwards, then they could never have been saved, cause they wouldn't die and always stay evil and Jesus then couldn't die for us.

Bingo! If you read Romans 5 carefully, especially verses 12-17, and 6:23 you see that the "sin-nature" causes PHYSICAL DEATH. This is confirmed in 1st Corinthians 15:22.

Man has more than one problem. There are FIVE main Offerings. Each one solves a problem. The second last one is the "sin" (singular) Offering, which Christ fulfilled in John 1:29. The last one is the "trespass Offering" which is solved by Christ in 1st John 2.2. Two differnt offerings ... ONE to solve man's nature and ANOTHER to pas for his sins (plural).

By the way, it is taught in wide circles that Adam died "spiritually". This belief has no proof in scripture. Not only can a "spirit" not die (Lk.20:35-36, Ps.104:4) but this scheme of thought presupposes that Adam already had divine life. This school of thought made up this solution because they could not fit Adam's death into one day. But this is a classic example of "private interpretation" - which is forbidden (2nd Pet.1:20).

The first day for Adam was the Sabbath (as he was created last on the sixth day). The first Sabbath IS NOT DEFINED by "the evening and the morning". The omission is glaring. The Sabbath is God's day and is defined in Hebrews 3 and 4 as the time from Israel entering the Land till being ejected as NOT FULFILLING A SABBATH. Now, Adam lived 930 years and Israel were ejected after just about 900 years. Hebrews 3 and 4 predict a future Sabbath - a seventh. If we leave private interpretation alone, and interpret scripture with scripture, we find FIVE different days in scripture. Only one of them fist ALL THREE SABBATHS - 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet.3:8).

The only FUTURE REST for Hebrews is the Messianic 1,000 years. The other days of the Bible are:
1. The time of daylight
2. the solar day - evening and morning
3. an event - like the "day of the Lord"
4. in prophecy a day is a year

 Adam was threatened that he would die IN (or within) the day he ate of the Tree of Knowledge. He lived 930 years. God's first Sabbath was ruined. In Israel he had His man again possessing the Good Land. They sinned and were cast out before 1,000 years were accomplished. God's Sabbath was ruined. But in the next 1,000 years day, Jesus will not fail. Magog will test the Messianic Kingdom but it will stand. God will have His Sabbath - 1,000 years of God's rule and rest.

[AdHoc]

45 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Interesting. So, did not Adam and Eve have Eternal (ongoing life)life before they sinned? And it seems the tree of life is needed in the New Jerusalem. 

The question is `Does just one eating of the tree give eternal life or does it maintain life?`

I think that the whole purpose of John's gospel is that man can be partaker of Gods Life (Jn.20:30-31). It can only be had by FAITH and by the mouth - CONFESSION. It is had in effect by a second birth. John 7.39 makes it clear that the divine Life in the Person of Christ's Spirit was only given after Christ's resurrection - the proof of all sins put away.

The words "born again" can mean two things;
1. The living creature is born, dies and creeps into the womb again to be born again
2. The living creature is alive by birth and he/she must undergo another birth to receive another kind of life

Even Nicodemus understood this. He understood point #1, but our Lord Jesus made it #2. John 3:6 divides the birth for fleshly life and an other birth for the spirit. The word that causes the confusion is the constant use of "regeneration". But "regeneration" (used only twice in the Bible) means "dormant organisms taking new life in the spring". It does not mean something died and had to be born again. It is used to describe the earth in the Millennium in Matthew 19:28 as the curses are lifted.

Thus, Adam had human life and every other man would be born to the woman to have this life. But Adam, to empower him to be in God's image and likeness needed a second type of life - God's life - ETERNAL LIFE. Two different Births EQUALS TWO DIFFERENT LIFES - human and divine.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Thus, Adam had human life and every other man would be born to the woman to have this life. But Adam, to empower him to be in God's image and likeness needed a second type of life - God's life - ETERNAL LIFE. Two different Births EQUALS TWO DIFFERENT LIFES - human and divine.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I agree. And then in eternity, New Heavens and New Earth, there will be different bodies -

1. on earth - like Adam before the fall. (Rev. 21: 24)

2. In the New Jerusalem - heavenly bodies. (Heb. 11: 12 - 16)

3. In the third heaven - glorified bodies like the Lord`s. (1 John 3: 2)

[RdJ]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Bingo! If you read Romans 5 carefully, especially verses 12-17, and 6:23 you see that the "sin-nature" causes PHYSICAL DEATH. This is confirmed in 1st Corinthians 15:22.

Man has more than one problem. There are FIVE main Offerings. Each one solves a problem. The second last one is the "sin" (singular) Offering, which Christ fulfilled in John 1:29. The last one is the "trespass Offering" which is solved by Christ in 1st John 2.2. Two differnt offerings ... ONE to solve man's nature and ANOTHER to pas for his sins (plural).

By the way, it is taught in wide circles that Adam died "spiritually". This belief has no proof in scripture. Not only can a "spirit" not die (Lk.20:35-36, Ps.104:4) but this scheme of thought presupposes that Adam already had divine life. This school of thought made up this solution because they could not fit Adam's death into one day. But this is a classic example of "private interpretation" - which is forbidden (2nd Pet.1:20).

The first day for Adam was the Sabbath (as he was created last on the sixth day). The first Sabbath IS NOT DEFINED by "the evening and the morning". The omission is glaring. The Sabbath is God's day and is defined in Hebrews 3 and 4 as the time from Israel entering the Land till being ejected as NOT FULFILLING A SABBATH. Now, Adam lived 930 years and Israel were ejected after just about 900 years. Hebrews 3 and 4 predict a future Sabbath - a seventh. If we leave private interpretation alone, and interpret scripture with scripture, we find FIVE different days in scripture. Only one of them fist ALL THREE SABBATHS - 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet.3:8).

The only FUTURE REST for Hebrews is the Messianic 1,000 years. The other days of the Bible are:
1. The time of daylight
2. the solar day - evening and morning
3. an event - like the "day of the Lord"
4. in prophecy a day is a year

 Adam was threatened that he would die IN (or within) the day he ate of the Tree of Knowledge. He lived 930 years. God's first Sabbath was ruined. In Israel he had His man again possessing the Good Land. They sinned and were cast out before 1,000 years were accomplished. God's Sabbath was ruined. But in the next 1,000 years day, Jesus will not fail. Magog will test the Messianic Kingdom but it will stand. God will have His Sabbath - 1,000 years of God's rule and rest.

I read that death is just being seperated. Not ceasing to exist. They got seperated from God. They could still talk with Him and I think they're in heaven now, but they couldn't stay in paradise. Darkened or something in their understanding.

Ezechiel 36 says: 

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Ezekiel 36:26‭-‬27 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.36.26-27.NKJV

 

But I don't understand. The spirit is dead? From a baby who can't even sin and for those is the Kingdom? And what is spirit and what is heart, soul? When Jesus became like God as a human only His fleshly part was cut off, the part that didn't want to die, like a circumcision, circumcize your hearts, cut the flesh part off, the will of the body, the ego. I think that is what happens. Renewed or something. The old Adam is the fleshly egoistic part.

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
I Corinthians 15:45 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.15.45.NKJV

Edited February 28 by RdJ

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I agree. And then in eternity, New Heavens and New Earth, there will be different bodies -

1. on earth - like Adam before the fall. (Rev. 21: 24)

2. In the New Jerusalem - heavenly bodies. (Heb. 11: 12 - 16)

3. In the third heaven - glorified bodies like the Lord`s. (1 John 3: 2)

If I remember correctly, we've had this discussion before. I can see your reasoning, based on 2nd Corinthians 5. Here's my understanding for comparison.

1. All men came out of Adam. His first offspring occurred AFTER the fall, so every man who has ever lived (except Jesus) inherited Adam's nature (see the Law of KINDS in Gen.1:11-12 and Adam's failure to produce one man in the image of God in Genesis 5:1-3). So, if every man inherited Adam's nature, there can never be a return to what Adam was before the fall. Every man is headed for death (1st Cor.15:22, Rom.5:12-17).

The solution for death is resurrection. The same verse, 1st Cor.15:22, says that ALL (who were IN Adam) will be raised. And in this process of being raised you do not have the same attributes as before (1 Cor.15:37).

2. The word "heavenly" can mean IN heaven, or it can mean "heavenly in nature". In Jacob's dream of Bethel (which means "the House of God") the House is built with men STARTING ON EARTH, becoming heavenly because of the Ladder, and returning to earth. So God's House, City, Bride and Body is ON EARTH but heavenly in nature. This is confirmed in 2nd Corinthians 5:1-2. Note that in this scripture the resurrected Body that we desire is FROM heaven, not IN heaven.

3. Ist John 3:2 says;

 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Note the sequence. We do not go anywhere. The Lord makes the journey. He "appears" - the same word as is used in Matthew 24:30 for His ARRIVAL. He is in the Father's throne "above all heavens". Then He is in His own throne in heaven. Then in the same setting, firstfruits of the Lamb stand before Him. Then He is found in the clouds after descending. Then He is found on Mt. Olives. But immediately a difficulty arises. It is this;

1st Corinthians 15:34-44 says that resurrection bodies DIFFER. But 1st John 3:2 says that "we will be like Him". How do we reconcile this? The answer is that we will be "LIKE HIM" in that we will have heavenly bodies (Celestial), will have bodies made by the Holy Spirit (spiritual) and incorruptible bodies. The difference is in the INDIVIDUAL GLORY. It says that a body is produced ACCORDING TO THE SEED. If our Lord has the glory of the sun, who will have the glory of the moon? Most probably Israel for Israel will only have reflected light. We, being stars, having differing light intensity and glory ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS SOWN. The diligent lover of Jesus who obeyed will have a body LIKE the Lord but nowhere near the glory. A different lifestyle between Paul and Demas will produce differing glories in resurrection.

With this view, my understanding is
1. All men alive after our Lord's return will be on earth. The dead will still be in Hades till the White Throne

2. All resurrected will have a certain glory. Resurrection is a work of Christ, but His glory is manifested in accordance with the lifestyle of the resurrected. This could be extreme, say, between Paul and Stalin.

3. Bethel - the house of God - is on earth. The Throne of God is heaven, but His ABODE is earth. Every allusion to God's House is on earth, from the Tree of Life in Eden through the Tabernacle with no floor but the desert sand, to the Temple in the "City of the Great King" through the spirits of men through the corporate spirit - the Church through New Jerusalem "which comes down FROM heaven". This must be true because featuring the New Jerusalem is Israel (an earthly People like sand), and the Nations trying to get into the gates.

There is no talk, ever, in the whole Bible, of Israel or the Nations going to heaven, AND Bethel is a ladder set up on earth.

Finally, I can understand you not wanting to give up a scheme that you have held for decades. We find comfort in what we believe. I don't believe that you will change, but you have to admit that my arguments are compelling.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, RdJ said:

I read that death is just being seperated. Not ceasing to exist. They got seperated from God. They could still talk with Him and I think they're in heaven now, but they couldn't stay in paradise. Darkened or something in their understanding.

Ezechiel 36 says: 

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Ezekiel 36:26‭-‬27 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.36.26-27.NKJV

 

But I don't understand. The spirit is dead? From a baby who can't even sin and for those is the Kingdom? And what is spirit and what is heart, soul? When Jesus became like God as a human only His fleshly part was cut off, the part that didn't want to die, like a circumcision, circumcize your hearts, cut the flesh part off, the will of the body, the ego. I think that is what happens. Renewed or something. The old Adam is the fleshly egoistic part.

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
I Corinthians 15:45 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.15.45.NKJV

Hi Rdj. I've got duties in about 30 minutes, so my answer will be short.

The spirit of Adam was alive. But its vitality is human. If you remove it the man dies (Jas.2:26).

A baby dies because it is subject to Romans 5:12-17. As I said before, we die because of "sin" (singular) (see also Romans 6:23)

A spirit cannot die. Angels are spirits (Ps.104:4) and cannot die (Lk.20:35-36)

I too believe that Adam and Eve will be saved. They BELIEVED God about (i) the Savior- seed of the woman, (ii) enough to think it was Cain (iii) enough to call his wife "of the living"

The solution for man's nature BEFORE sin came in was to eat of the Tree of Life
The solution for physical death is rsurrection
The solution for man with the sin nature is to look at Him "Who was lifted up" (Jn.3)
The solution to sins (plural) is (i) Christ's death for forgiveness, or (ii) the Lake of Fire as retribution (Isa.66:24)

Take care. Gotta go.

[FJK]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I agree with you. But what made him choose the way he went? Remember, the OP established a LAW in us. Adam did not have this Law of sin and death.

You're right, he didn't have that as a (written or spoken) law, but he did have human nature with all of its fundamental drives, one of which is the drive to acquire (acquisitiveness).

Looking at it from this standpoint, I would say that he let that desire become so strong that, instead of expressing it  it in a manner acceptable to God and using it for his purposes (as I imagine God intended) he channeled it in an entirely different direction and instead of acquiring through creativity (another basic drive of human nature)  and developing the Garden he let Eve's presentation of the apple as desirable to have overpower him to the extent that he deliberately disobeyed the one law he had been given.

This is simplistic for an explanation, of course, but outside of writing some kind of lengthy and boring academic treatise it should present the -or a- basic idea for thought, one that could be expanded quite significantly when looking at all of the things we do and why we o them and how we might refocus ourselves and our society so that we are encouraged to use them for Godly purposes instead of evil selfishly based ones that are opposed to God's plan for us.

Much to discuss, much to ponder, but probably not the best place to do it here.

BTW, thanks for your post, it has given me inspiration for thought.

May your day go well and bring you much fulfillment as you live it.

Edited February 28 by FJK

[FJK]

15 hours ago, Jayne said:

The devil did not make her sin.  She chose to out of deception.

That's true.