They Speak With Such Authority, Yet Differ Sharply

[Gabriel80]

5 minutes ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I see this too and have somewhat mixed feelings about it. My paternal grandmother was very firm in her pre-trib Rapture beliefs and participating in the practice you've described. My upbringing was saturated with it, and it wasn't until well into my adult life that I was exposed to the different views on the topic and considered the other perspectives. I feel like the degree of certainty and pushing advanced concepts on me as a child did more harm than good. There were many nights I spent in bed as a terrified young teenager worried to the point of tears and panic that I'd missed the rapture. I absolutely believe she meant well, but it's hard to deny the impact that had on me. These days I agree that we're called to watch.

I don't have a problem with eschatological topics, or in speculation about it and how current events might fit into it. The key thing IMO is to recognize that it's speculation. Presentation and frequency matter a whole lot. There are members here that I personally enjoy engaging in such speculation with. They're humble about it, and it's a point of Christian fellowship for us. I can't speak for the others in such threads but the discussions tend to leave me feeling positive, serving as a reminder that this world will one day be replaced with a far better one. That said I wouldn't exactly want it to be the meat and potatoes of my Christian walk, just a portion of it that exists on the side. The way I see it we should watch as we're called to and discussing current events in relation to prophecy can be a form of that, but we also need to take the rest of the Bible into account. There's a lengthy section of Luke 12 going from verse 35 and onward that tells us to watch. But there's also a very strong warning against being the sort of servant who knows what we should be doing yet fails to get ready or do God's will. Watching is part of the equation, but not the entirety of it.

Exactly my experience as a kid through teenage years.  Pre-trib rapture was the dominant view of my parents.

I feel you @AnOrangeCat.

[farouk]

17 minutes ago, Gabriel80 said:

Exactly my experience as a kid through teenage years.  Pre-trib rapture was the dominant view of my parents.

I feel you @AnOrangeCat.

@Gabriel80 I think it is clarified if one asks the 'who?' aspect. As in, is the church raptured? are Jews? are Gentiles? (groups referred to in 1 Corinthians 10.32).

[Sower]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

@Gabriel80 I think it is clarified if one asks the 'who?' aspect. As in, is the church raptured? are Jews? are Gentiles? (groups referred to in 1 Corinthians 10.32).

Yes. But in what way would knowing who/when the rapture, and then  meanwhile how would it  affect your daily walk in Christ, gathering your sheaves?

           "They that sow in tears Shall reap in joy"

"He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed,

          Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,

              bringing his sheaves with him"
                            Psalms 126:5-6

                     Then, the Bema seat.......our report card.
                              Think on that one....

Thanks, farouk

[Mr. M]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:29 AM, Sower said:

They that sow in tears Shall reap in joy"

"He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed,

          Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,

              bringing his sheaves with him"
                            Psalms 126:5-6

James 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Isaiah 32:17 The work of righteousness will be peace,
And the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever.

[Dennis1209]

A pretribulation view:

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 25:13)

The above is an imperative: What and where are we commanded to watch? The Jews had plenty of scripture and signs to watch for with their Messiah’s first advent and missed it. The Jews should have at least known the season of their visitation.

How I view prophetic scripture: It is world history documented in advance. To know there is One True God in control, the Alpha-Omega, knowing the beginning from the end and directing human affairs. All to the praise and glory of the One True living God in three Persons.

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. In other words, the mysteries (the plan of God) hidden from the foundation of the world are brought to light for His glory. We are not to be ignorant of the nearness of our Lord’s coming for His Bride, always prepared, looking, and not ashamed of ourselves at His arrival.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:25)

I think the preceding verse may have a dual application, as many other prophecies. Given the context and what was to follow, the sacking of Jerusalem and not one stone upon another with the Second Temple, courtesy of Titus and his legions.

Whether Hebrews 10:25 is directed explicitly to Israel circa 70 A.D. or not, there is an application to the Day of the Lord: watch, look for, assemble yourselves as you see the day approaching. Are we seeing that day approach?

Although prophecy is best understood after fulfillment, it can be directly compared to scripture. However, we have many things to watch for as the Tribulation nears.

Never in history has everything prophetic (Matt. 24; Eze. 28;29; 2 Tim. 3) and everywhere else jumped off the pages of God’s word, telling us we are in the season of the Lord’s second coming for His church.

With the doctrine of imminence, there are no signs or events preceding Christ’s return. He could have, and can, return at any moment. All prophecy for our day (end time) reflects the nearness of the coming Tribulation.

We all have different views of theology and eschatology, and I never claim my views are correct. As plainly stated in scripture, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, family. We have all things in common. We are to edify, uplift, get along with each other, prefer one another, and assemble ourselves (be it in church, Bible study, snail mail, Christian forums, etc.).

We must be mature believers growing in patience and faith, not squabbling with each other over secondary hermeneutics and exegesis. We are to put those childish things away, get off the milk, and get to the meat and potatoes of scripture, faith and understanding.

[enoob57]

15 hours ago, Mr. M said:

James 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Isaiah 32:17 The work of righteousness will be peace,
And the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever.

And when God has told us all His plans for the everlasting ->this peace can only be for them that accept those plans... We tell them, the unregenerate, that all of what they are has been separated out from God... absolutely all that they have experienced and pursued will cease... not to much peace for them in that. Yet that is our mission to point to the narrow way toward life... noting the quietness and assurance is qualified in everlasting are those who live in this light of His Word...

[FreeGrace]

52 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

A pretribulation view:

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 25:13)

The above is an imperative: What and where are we commanded to watch? The Jews had plenty of scripture and signs to watch for with their Messiah’s first advent and missed it. The Jews should have at least known the season of their visitation.

This is  not a pre tribulation view.  We can know that from Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This is a reference to the Second Advent, when the King will return to earth (a second time) to end the Tribulation, evaluate all believers at the Bema, and set up His Millennial Kingdom.

So, every reference to "the coming of Jesus" is a reference to the Second Advent.  And we can know that ALL believers will be resurrected at the same time, and not in "stages"/etc from 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The context here is the resurrection of believers.  We see that Jesus Christ, is the FIRST to receive His immortal glorified body, by the green words.  The red words refers to the Second Advent, per Heb 9:28.  And the blue words refer to every saved person from Adam forward.  It cannot be argued that the blue phrase leaves out any saved person, because all saved people DO belong to Him.

Therefore, there is no pretrib rapture that is so commonly taught and believed among evangelicals.

 

[Dennis1209]

55 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Therefore, there is no pretrib rapture that is so commonly taught and believed among evangelicals.

Thus, the core of the OP thread.

Quote: Every time I read through threads in the Prophecy/Eschatology forum, the members seem to express themselves with total authority, as if what they are saying is factual, rather than speculation. And yet they differ sharply point by point of view.

Quote: We all have different views of theology and eschatology, and I never claim my views are correct. As plainly stated in scripture, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, family. We have all things in common. We are to edify, uplift, get along with each other, prefer one another, and assemble ourselves (be it in church, Bible study, snail mail, Christian forums, etc.).

[Mr. M]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

We must be mature believers growing in patience and faith, not squabbling with each other over secondary hermeneutics and exegesis. We are to put those childish things away, get off the milk, and get to the meat and potatoes of scripture, faith and understanding.

Here is what I received in my morning devotions:

It is written: I will pour out My Spirit on All Flesh...

The question becomes who will receive?

Found in the reading of Proverbs 1:

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkens unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Edited March 16 by Mr. M

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thus, the core of the OP thread.

Quote: Every time I read through threads in the Prophecy/Eschatology forum, the members seem to express themselves with total authority, as if what they are saying is factual, rather than speculation. And yet they differ sharply point by point of view.is

When one quotes Scripture that is plainly worded (no figures of speech/metaphors)  and straight forward, one is quoting the ultimate authority, the Word of God.  

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Quote: We all have different views of theology and eschatology, and I never claim my views are correct.

If you don't claim that your views are correct, are you admitting or maybe just comfortable with the possibility of being wrong??

Having been on numerous forums for over 2 decades, I thought everyone who posted were convinced that they were right.

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

As plainly stated in scripture, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, family. We have all things in common. We are to edify, uplift, get along with each other, prefer one another, and assemble ourselves (be it in church, Bible study, snail mail, Christian forums, etc.).

Along with all this, we need to be doctrinally accurate.  The best way is to apply what the Bereans did with Paul's preaching, which I call the verification method, from Acts 17:11 - Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

What I have found from over 20 years of forums, is that people make claims from Scripture that the Scripture doesn't clearly state.  So, they are assuming from the verses used.  

The verses I quoted in my previous post are all very plainly worded and straight forward.  There are no verses that speak of Jesus taking any resurrected believers to heaven.  

To apply what you've said here to the doctrine of salvation, we have a great problem.  If we can't believe what the plainly stated straight forward verses say, then how would anyone know how to be saved, or even if they themselves are saved??