Book of Daniel

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

In 9:27, it is the Messiah (He) will will arrive on the first day of the 70th week and begin His ministry.

I have to disagree with you on this Charlie.

Let's look at Daniel 9:26:

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

And the first part of 9:27:

"And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week"

So the "he" in 9:27 is a pronoun..... and the closest antecedent before it is in 9:26..... "the people of the prince who is to come"

And you have identified that the "prince who is to come" is the "little horn"

Then in 9:27..... " he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering"

The "he" is a pronoun and the antecedent is once again the "prince who is to come"

Had the scripture instead read "and after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah will be cut off but not for Himself, and the people shall destroy the city and sanctuary..." ...... then yes, the next few "he's" would refer back to the Messiah.

But because another character is introduced, ie "the prince who is to come".... you would need an antecedent to clarify who it is that is being talked about.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree with you. The entire book of Daniel is meant to record the prophecies that God will include in His plan of restoration and salvation for the Jews and His city after their Babylonian conquest. However, because He knows the ending from the beginning, God will also use this ACTUAL plan of restoration / salvation for the Jews to prophecise His plan of restoration / salvation for both the Jews and the Gentiles when His people reject and crucify Him in the last week of the plan to restore / saved His people (70 weeks of years prophecy).

I agree with you. The Jews had repeadedly disobeyed God and turned to idolatry for many years. Despite the pleadings of Jeremiah, they refused to repent and then it came time for God to punish His people. Thus, the book of Daniel is God's punishment for His people by the Babylonians in 606 BC. But God would NEVER abondon His people and even before the prophesied punishment, He told them He would restore them back to Jerusalem at the end of 70 years. This plan of restoration would be identified in chapter 9 as  the 70 weeks of years prophecy..... to restore everything as it was prior to their captivitty.

I do understand that almost all contend this follows the infamous "day for a year" principle, and this so called "principle" is later applied at least in 4 other time elements within Daniel, however, I do not believe this IS A VALID PRINCIPLE. Yes, it is found in Numbers and Ezekiel but that does not make it a "principle." However, not one of the time elements in Daniel should use this approach to determine the lenght of time within their respective prophecy. But this prophecy does represent 70 "sevens" or 490 literal years from Artarxexes decree in 457 BC.

 

 

25“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

 

This I do not agree with at all - sorry. First, these 4 verses follow the same approach God uses in chapter 2. He initially established the "dream sequence" or the "big picture" by revealing the 4 and only 4 kingdoms what will come upon the earth (within His plan of salvation). Later in verses 41-43, He will provide the "interpretations sequence" verses which represents the "detailed" events that will take place WITHIN THOSE "dream sequence" verses. Thus, these verses in chapter 2 are not presented in chronological order. But the "dream sequence" verses establish the borders, boundaries, guidlines, restrictions, etc., for these 4 kingdoms. This is done so we can ensure all the verses coming after chapter 2 SHOULD BE PLACED WITHIN THESE SAME 4 KINGDOMS. God will use very different symbols in the later chapters but they will ALWAYS have to be placed within these same / established kingdoms of chapter 2. And one of the most important factors to consider is He is no only establishing the "physical" borders and boundaries for each of the 4 kingdoms, but He is revealing the very fixed "time borders and boundaries' for each of the 4 kingdoms.

Meaning, in chapter 9, God will ensure we understand the "time borders and boundaries" for this prophecy. He establshes this prophecy will be exactly 70 weeks (weeks of years) or 490 years. This is done at the very beginning of 9:24 - there is no or should not be any dispute on this time prophecy. Because it is similar to the chapter 2 "dream sequence" verses, it is fixed, established and the following "detail" verses (interpretation sequence verses) that will be found in these 4 verses, will be placed within these 70 years.

Verse 9:24 provides the " 6 part mission" that Jesus will fulfill DURING or within this 70 year prophecy (first "restorative" verse found within the 4 verses (24-27). Again, the book of Daniel is all about the restoration / plan of salvation for the Jews.

Verse 9:25 is the second "restorative" verse found in these 4 verses that tell us that from a certain specific date, the decree by Artaxerxes to restore and build Jerusalem (again He refers to the restoration process), the following will take place:

          1) the Messiah the Prince will arrive,

          2) streets and the walls will be rebuilt.

BOTH OF THESE TWO "RESTORATIVE" events WILL BE RESTORED WITHIN 62 nd 7 weeks after the decree. Now, God is providing us with two more "time" elements found WITHIN THE 70 weeks (9:24) along with those events that will be completed or will take place. The walls / streets / and the Temple were literally completed WITHIN THE FIRST 7 WEEKS OF THE FIRST 49 YEARS AFTER THE DECREE (457 -408 BC). This part of the prophecy spoke to the "physical" elements that were to be restored in Jerusalem after their return. And over the following 62 weeks (after the first 7 weeks), the Jews would also restore the 7 Holy Feast days, the animal sacrifices, all the cerermonies found within the Levitical system. And we know that by the time the Messiah would arrive, the Jews were fully restored AS IT WAS PRIOR TO THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY with the exception on ONE very important factor.

Just prior to the Babylonian captivity, Jeremiah would remove the Ark of the Covenant from the Sanctuary. It would never be seen again. Thus the Babylonians would not take it captive to Babylon. However, after the Jews return and after they would restore all the "physcial" elements (9:25), including the Levitical requirements, there was ONE piece of furniture still mission - the Ark of the Covenant. Therefore, in 9:25, God will tell us that the Messiah (the Ark of the Covenant - His presence) will be the final piece of furniture to be restored. When, only alfte all the "physical" and softer elements had been restored DURING THE FIRST 69 WEEKS OF THE PROPHECY. Therefore, at the END OF THE 69TH WEEK, or literally the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would arrive and be baptized in the Jordan and anointed by His Father. This last week represents the last piece of furniture in the Sanctuary that HAD TO BE RESTORED. It would begin His 7 year ministry or the most important HOLY WEEK (7 YEARS) of the prophecy.  As you can see, there is absolutely NO gap anywhere within this prophecy - the "time" elements were / are established in 9:24-25, the "restorative" elements (physical an Levitical) were also identified to be completed BEFORE THE COMING MESSIAH. 

Also, if you notice, God does, in a sense, show a "gap" in these verses, but it is WITHIN THE 70 YEAR TIME PERIOD. In 9:25, He tells us the physical elements will be completed within the first 7 weeks (49 literal years), and then He completely skips over what elements, if any, will be completed DURING THE NEXT 62 weeks or 434 literal years. But He does provide us with the understanding that AFTER THE FIRST 7 AND THEN FOLLOWING 62 WEEKS, THE EVENTS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE WITHIN THE LAST 1 WEEK or 7 literal years: those things the Messiah will fulfill DURING THE FINAL WEEK (9:24).  So, He tells us what is to be restored in the first 49 years, He is silent on the next 434 years and then He tells us what is to be restore in the final 7 years of the prophecy. He literall locks the first and the third time elements WITHIN THE 70 YEARS PROPHECY AND offers no comment regarding the largest section of the prophecy - the middle section of 434 years.

Verses 9:24-25 are the only  two "restorative verses within these 4. 

 

Now, we come to verses 9:26-27. These remaining two verses represent the two "destructive" verses found in the 4.

26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

In 9:26, God is telling us that AFTER the second "silent" section of 62 weeks or 434 literal years (can ONLY come about AFTER the first 7 weeks are completed), the following will occur, all they are all "DESTRUCTIVE" VERSES:

        1) the Messiah will be "cut off" (crucified) AFTER THE 62 weeks are completed.  We know in 9:25, the Messiah ARRIVED AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE 7 AND 62 WEEKS. Now, we are told that He will also be crucified in the same period - after the end of the 62 week section of the prophecy. There is certainly nothing that even hints of a "gap" between week 69 and 70 whatsoever. And we should have no problem accepting that 70 comes after 69 unless there is something in the verses that tells us otherwise. But the Messiah DID ARRIVE ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE 70TH WEEK AND HE WAS CRUCIFIED IN THE MIDST "MIDDLE" OF THE LAST WEEK OF 7 YEARS.

        2) He will be "cut off" - but not for Himself - well, that can only apply to the Messiah who will sacrifice His life for many - both Jews and Gentiles that place their faith in Him for the coming 2000 years,

        3) As a result of His people rejecting Him and crucifying Him, the city and the sancturay as well as the walls, streets, etc., and the murder of some 1 million Jews will be destroyed. This would occur after God had given His people another 40 years to repent.... but they continued to reject Him. Now, God will make them (Jews who rejected HIm) completelly "desolate" from His presence. The "people of the prince WHO IS TO COME" respresents pagan Rome when in 70 AD, they would destroy everything. Later in chapter 7, we find this "prince to come" was the little horn who would sit atop the 4th kingdom beast AFTER PAGAN ROME WAS SLAIN AND ITS BODY DESTROYED. At the time of Jesus, there was no little horn. He would only come onto to the scene some 400 years after the cross. 

        4) "and to the end of the war, desolations are determined." This does NOT mean there will be war AFTER THE END OF THE TIME OF DESOLATIONS (infamous 7 year tribulation period when some mythical anti-Christ figure will come to make war). This means that, as a result of Him being rejected and crucified BY HIS PEOPLE, they will be made completely desolate with their God for over 2000 years. The "war" being spoken of here, is the war between God and the little horn of Daniel 7 an 8. It is the SPIRITUAL WAR between those that will follow the Testimony of Jesus and His Word verses the false teachings of the little horn. At the time of the end of the Gentiles, God will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people and they will go out into the world preaching the Testimony of Jesus and His Word for 3.5 years.

 

27Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

 

In 9:27, it is the Messiah (He) will will arrive on the first day of the 70th week and begin His ministry. He will indeed fulfill all the God given mission (9:24) BEFORE THE CROSS. This is NOT a true translation in the first sentence of 9:27. It should be written and interpreted (changed by the RCC in the 16th century) as the Messiah will CONFIRM (NOT CREATE A BRAND NEW COVENANT but the one identified in Jeremiah 31:31-34), DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE PROPHECY. These 4 verses are speaking about the 70 weeks of years prophecy - the restoration side of things and the destructive side of things as they result from His people rejected Him and crucifying Him WITHIN THE FINAL 7 YEARS OF THE PROPHECY.

 

 

Please see above. The "people" is pagan Rome who will destroy everything in 70 AD. The prince of these same people "who is to come" is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8,

No, I don't see anything in Daniel that speaks to this.

It is the covenent referred to in Jeremiah 31 before the Babylonian captivity. He speaks of their unrepentence, the timing of the coming of the Babylonians, the prediction of the number of years in captivity and the New Covenant God will made with His people.

I don't agree. The Temple, the Sanctuary, the Levitical ceremonies, etc., were all types and shadows of the coming Messiah. He will fulfill each and every one of them. He would do way the the need for a Temple, the Sanctuary, the sacred vessels, the animal sacrifices, etc. There would no longer be a purpose or any of the them. There purpose was fulfilled and they would no longer have any importance. Whether today's Jews continue to reject the Messiah and plan for a third Temple is meaningless. Of course they will consider it important for a third Temple - they continue to reject their Messaiah, but what they think has no bearing on what God has done.

 

T0day's accepted interpretations DO INCLUDE A GAP THEORY - THAT NO ONE SHOULD IGNORE. However, that theory only came ab0ut in the late 16th century AD - Reformation period and it was intentionally created by the Jesuits at the commission of the RCC. Read the writings of Father Ribera. The RCC has been quite successful in promoting this theory to every generation of children since that tine... and now, if you tell a thing longs enough..... Even today's Protestants have embraced it... But chapter 9 is all about the Messiah - not some mythical anti=Christ figure or a fictitious 7 year agreement, etc. God has given us the book of Daniel first for the Jews and then to the Gentiles.  

 

I respect your studies, intellect and what you hold. Your opinion is an educated one. This is good for all, for the differing views spur us all on to study God's Word. The Reader is now presented with two arguments. Mine is streamlined and according to the grammar. No extra conclusions are made. I have interpreted what is somewhat obscure using the precedents set forth in the Bible (e.g. one-day-one-year, the gap in other prophecies, etc.). You have woven a more elaborate picture. I find that some of your statements are not found within the grammar of accepted translations. It could be that by not projecting like you do, I miss something crucial.

The Reader has now two of the many interpretations. This is good, especially for the young Christians just starting their studies of God's Word. May the Lord impress upon us what He wants and cause us to forget what was over and above what He meant. May He also reveal the mysteries of 1290 and 1335 before the age ends.

May the Reader Judge ...

Go well brother.

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I have to disagree with you on this Charlie.

Let's look at Daniel 9:26:

And the first part of 9:27:

"And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week"

So the "he" in 9:27 is a pronoun..... and the closest antecedent before it is in 9:26..... "the people of the prince who is to come"

And you have identified that the "prince who is to come" is the "little horn"

Then in 9:27..... " he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering"

The "he" is a pronoun and the antecedent is once again the "prince who is to come"

Had the scripture instead read "and after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah will be cut off but not for Himself, and the people shall destroy the city and sanctuary..." ...... then yes, the next few "he's" would refer back to the Messiah.

But because another character is introduced, ie "the prince who is to come".... you would need an antecedent to clarify who it is that is being talked about.

Thank for your comments Joe. First, I want to mention once again that “today’s accepted interpretations” on the identification of “he” DOES follow your train of thought.

However, the Bible is not written according to the rules of our English language. Very often it is not written in chronological order and many times it is found to be presented in a “Chiastic” structure. We certainly do not write in a chiastic manner.

If we were to step back from the verses or look at them from 30,000 feet, I believe we will agree that our recording of the events that took place at the time of the cross AND within 40 years after will agree with the events within these verses. 

1) I think there is, or should not be ANY dispute that the Scriptures (especially the book of Daniel) is focused on the restoration of the Jews back to Jerusalem.. From its very beginning in chapter 1, Daniel begins with their captivity. It continues speaking about the Jews AS THEY ARE AFFECTED THROUGH THE 4 KINGDOMS, and culminates at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (their return to Jerusalem and the restoration of everything that was in Jerusalem BEFORE the Babylonian conquest- FULL CIRCLE. 
 

God is providing us and Daniel with the complete period of the restoration. That is the focus of Daniel. 
And God will complete His story (prophecies) regarding this 490 year period with the restoration of the first piece of furniture that was removed by Jeremiah before their captivity. Everything was fully restored in the reverse order they were taken. The Ark of the Covenant is restored in the form of the coming Messiah. 
 

In chapter 9, it is all about Him - the restoration of the last piece of furniture. God has “set aside” this final week (7 years) for His Messiah to complete all of His God given mission (9:24). There is no reason to add to these Messianic verses any other character other than the “people of the prince to come” (Titus and his army) and the “prince who is to come” (little horn). 
 

And this is exactly what DID TAKE PLACE. God is not now adding some anti/ Christ figure here that will supposedly come some 2000 years into the future. 
 

He in 9:27 is and can only refer to our Messiah. He came exacyon time - WITHIN the 70 weeks of years prophecy. He was “cut off” in the midst of the last week. His death put an end to the animal sacrifices and offerings. His coming and death made the Temple, the Levitical ceremonies, etc., no longer necessary. Did not Jesus confirm the New Covenant identified in Jeremiah 31? Did His ministry begin on the first day of the 70th week? Did He arrive AFTER the completion of those first 69 weeks? Was He crucified exactly 3.5 years INTO THIS LAST WEEK? It is all about our Messiah! It was the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 in the 16th century that commissioned and promoted this intentionally corrupted theory that treated these few verses as end time events / actors, and threw them into the future IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE TITLE OF THE “LITTLE HORN” from the papacy. 
 

Verses 9:24 -25 are both “restorative” Messianic prophecies- ALL TAKING PLACE WITHIN THE 490 YEAR PROPHECY. 
 

Verses 9:26-27 are both “destructive” Messianic prophecies- ALL TAKEN PLACE AS A DIRECT RESULT IF THE CROSS. 
 

I would ask you not to rely on the proper use or application of the English writing rules - “closest antecedent” etc., and step back and notice just how these events speak directly to the restoration of the Jews and Jerusalem after Babylon, AND the most important piece that HAD TO BE RESTORED- the ARK OF THE COVENANT in the form of the Messiah. 
 

Thanks Joe and I look forward to your response, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I respect your studies, intellect and what you hold. Your opinion is an educated one. This is good for all, for the differing views spur us all on to study God's Word. The Reader is now presented with two arguments. Mine is streamlined and according to the grammar. No extra conclusions are made. I have interpreted what is somewhat obscure using the precedents set forth in the Bible (e.g. one-day-one-year, the gap in other prophecies, etc.). You have woven a more elaborate picture. I find that some of your statements are not found within the grammar of accepted translations. It could be that by not projecting like you do, I miss something crucial.

The Reader has now two of the many interpretations. This is good, especially for the young Christians just starting their studies of God's Word. May the Lord impress upon us what He wants and cause us to forget what was over and above what He meant. May He also reveal the mysteries of 1290 and 1335 before the age ends.

May the Reader Judge ...

Go well brother.

First, thank you very much for your very kind words. So much appreciated!!! 
 

Regarding the “year for a day” principle… I am aware it has been applied throughout the book of Daniel. I had tried to read, study and understand the very few interpretations that have been offered using this “principle.” I would say it may have taken me no less than 8 months (collectively) to unpack the 5 time elements specifically mentioned in Daniel. They did not make any sense to me ALTHOUGH I do agree they are seemingly “justified” in using based on the two references in Numbers and Ezekiel. Just because they represent a “real” and well documented OT verses, AND seem to fit this application, does not mean it SHOULD rise to the level of a “principle.” 
 

This so called “principle” is used in all 5 time elements in Daniel and none of them are appropriate. When we look for how these time elements speak to the Messiah AND His plan of salvation, the text opens up and reveals its prophetic message. 
 

Without opening another important sub/topic (yet$ within this topic of identifying cryptic verses within Daniel (at least until we might exhaust the 70 weeks of years prophecy), I can mention the following:

1) in chapter 4, the term “7 times” means 7 days,

2) In chapter 7, the term “time, times and 1/2 time reflects the TOTAL time God’s Word  His 10 commandments) which was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai will be IN THE HANDS IF THE LITTLE HORN (it will not be held by the little horn for the TOTAL period, but it will be “in their hands (they will determine how His 10 commandments are to be interpreted) UNTIL THE  end of “time, times and 1/2 time. Here, “time equals a 1000 years” or since Moses was given His 10 Commandments, there will be 3500 years until the coming of the Messiah. 
 

3) In chapter 8, Daniel mentions the time element of 2300 days. Once again, this had been impossible to interpret. But almost all who have attempted it will apply the Y-T-D principle. But this is not correct. If we try to apply this to our Messiah at His first coming, it fits quite nicely into His plan of salvation- and after all, this book ALL ABOUT HIM AND HIS PLAN IF SALVATION. Let’s look for Him in these verses!

And this particular time prophecy connects seamlessly with chapter 9 and “he” in 9:27 and the other related verses means “HE” not “he.”

This verse speaks about the time associated with the “cleansing of the sanctuary.” So, if we attempt to see how this might speak to the coming Messiah, we will find the following:

1) ONLY the Messiah can cleanse the sanctuary. His death will be “accepted” by His Father in heaven when He returned after Pentecost. 
But on earth before He returned, He would reveal the time element for this to take place- From the first day of His ministry (again, this ties in with His arrival one day after the 69th week was completed), to the day of the 7th Passover that WAS SET ASIDE FOR THE MESSIAH DURING THIS LAST WEEK), would amount to exactly 2340 days (the Messiah’s first Passover He would attend was exactly 1/2 year after He was baptized. Consequently, the 7th Passover within this final week would take place exactly 1/2 year BEFORE the end of the last week. 

Day of His baptism (start of His ministry) - Day # 1

Day of the 7th Passover He was to attend during the last week of the prophecy (again, this confirms / support there is NO gap theory- God’s plan was to have these 70 weeks of years prophecy as continuous without any gap or break- Jesus was “given “ this last week by God to fulfill His mission but of course, He was “cut off “ in the middle of the week. 
But this day would occur exactly 6.5 years after the day of His baptism or day # 2340 ( 360 X 6.5). 
 

So, the “set aside” period for the Messiah to “cleanse the sanctuary” DURING the last week totals 2340 days. However, just after His baptism and just prior to His attend this first Passover? Jesus would spend 40 days in the desert being tomboy the devil. This was necessary since Jesus could not serve as High Priest in the Temple (Levitical laws) unless He was deemed “clean.” After He successfully defeated the devil, He was considered “ cleansed or made pure” and could enter the Temple as our High Priest. Consequently, these 40 days of “cleansing” would not count the time He would need to meet the 2300 days requirement. 
 

Later, we can go through the two remaining time elements found in chapter 12- the 1290 and the 1335 days as they both tie into the Messiah. But this response is already tooooo long . Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

[AdHoc]

On 3/23/2024 at 4:32 AM, Charlie744 said:

First, thank you very much for your very kind words. So much appreciated!!! 
 

Regarding the “year for a day” principle… I am aware it has been applied throughout the book of Daniel. I had tried to read, study and understand the very few interpretations that have been offered using this “principle.” I would say it may have taken me no less than 8 months (collectively) to unpack the 5 time elements specifically mentioned in Daniel. They did not make any sense to me ALTHOUGH I do agree they are seemingly “justified” in using based on the two references in Numbers and Ezekiel. Just because they represent a “real” and well documented OT verses, AND seem to fit this application, does not mean it SHOULD rise to the level of a “principle.” 
 

This so called “principle” is used in all 5 time elements in Daniel and none of them are appropriate. When we look for how these time elements speak to the Messiah AND His plan of salvation, the text opens up and reveals its prophetic message. 
 

Without opening another important sub/topic (yet$ within this topic of identifying cryptic verses within Daniel (at least until we might exhaust the 70 weeks of years prophecy), I can mention the following:

1) in chapter 4, the term “7 times” means 7 days,

2) In chapter 7, the term “time, times and 1/2 time reflects the TOTAL time God’s Word  His 10 commandments) which was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai will be IN THE HANDS IF THE LITTLE HORN (it will not be held by the little horn for the TOTAL period, but it will be “in their hands (they will determine how His 10 commandments are to be interpreted) UNTIL THE  end of “time, times and 1/2 time. Here, “time equals a 1000 years” or since Moses was given His 10 Commandments, there will be 3500 years until the coming of the Messiah. 
 

3) In chapter 8, Daniel mentions the time element of 2300 days. Once again, this had been impossible to interpret. But almost all who have attempted it will apply the Y-T-D principle. But this is not correct. If we try to apply this to our Messiah at His first coming, it fits quite nicely into His plan of salvation- and after all, this book ALL ABOUT HIM AND HIS PLAN IF SALVATION. Let’s look for Him in these verses!

And this particular time prophecy connects seamlessly with chapter 9 and “he” in 9:27 and the other related verses means “HE” not “he.”

This verse speaks about the time associated with the “cleansing of the sanctuary.” So, if we attempt to see how this might speak to the coming Messiah, we will find the following:

1) ONLY the Messiah can cleanse the sanctuary. His death will be “accepted” by His Father in heaven when He returned after Pentecost. 
But on earth before He returned, He would reveal the time element for this to take place- From the first day of His ministry (again, this ties in with His arrival one day after the 69th week was completed), to the day of the 7th Passover that WAS SET ASIDE FOR THE MESSIAH DURING THIS LAST WEEK), would amount to exactly 2340 days (the Messiah’s first Passover He would attend was exactly 1/2 year after He was baptized. Consequently, the 7th Passover within this final week would take place exactly 1/2 year BEFORE the end of the last week. 

Day of His baptism (start of His ministry) - Day # 1

Day of the 7th Passover He was to attend during the last week of the prophecy (again, this confirms / support there is NO gap theory- God’s plan was to have these 70 weeks of years prophecy as continuous without any gap or break- Jesus was “given “ this last week by God to fulfill His mission but of course, He was “cut off “ in the middle of the week. 
But this day would occur exactly 6.5 years after the day of His baptism or day # 2340 ( 360 X 6.5). 
 

So, the “set aside” period for the Messiah to “cleanse the sanctuary” DURING the last week totals 2340 days. However, just after His baptism and just prior to His attend this first Passover? Jesus would spend 40 days in the desert being tomboy the devil. This was necessary since Jesus could not serve as High Priest in the Temple (Levitical laws) unless He was deemed “clean.” After He successfully defeated the devil, He was considered “ cleansed or made pure” and could enter the Temple as our High Priest. Consequently, these 40 days of “cleansing” would not count the time He would need to meet the 2300 days requirement. 
 

Later, we can go through the two remaining time elements found in chapter 12- the 1290 and the 1335 days as they both tie into the Messiah. But this response is already tooooo long . Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

I think that the matter is simpler (but not simple). The matter at hand is Daniel's People and their future. The way this future pans out is a matter of Gd's honor. God has made two Covenants with Israel. The first, made with Abraham and his seed contains only one stipulation upon Israel - circumcision. The second Covenant, made 430 years later at Horeb requires Israel to keep the Law of Moses. The first PROMISES the Land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession" for the seed of Abraham who are circumcised, and the second PROMISES that Israel will be ejected from th Land if thy break the Law. The first puts pressure on God because His PROMISES are immutable, and the second must be FULFILLED by men of the utmost weakness.

Galatians 3:15 tells us that a Covenant, even between men, cannot be just annulled or tampered with. Implied is that God's Covenant is incapable of being annulled or changed. God is bound to find a way to LEGALLY (for He is 100% righteous) to settle all obstacles that prevent Israel being ONE Nation and living in the Land while keeping the Law.

I am aware that the cry of objection will go up immediately that the goal is to get Israel believing in their Messiah. I agree. But if Israel are to reject their Messiah (which they did) they are obliged to carry on under Covenant - which they do. In Matthew 5 our Lord confirms the continuation of Law "till heaven and earth pass". The New Covenant, made with Israel (Jer.31:31-33) is new only in its placing. Instead of tables of stone, it is the "tables" of heart of every individual Jew.

It is at once obvious from Romans 11 that Israel remain hardened till "the fullness of the Gentiles". Now, whichever understanding you apply to this, Israel do NOT come to faith as it is defined in Hebrews 11:1. Their first reaction concerning their Messiah is to see Him burst out of the clouds over Mount Olives. And in "SEEING him" faith, which concerns the UNSEEN, is not applicable. Thus, the prophets, ending with Zacharias in Luke Chapter 1 predict a different salvation to those that have faith in Jesus.

The prophets predict Israel restored (e.g. Ezekiel 37). But this restoration is timed for when the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16). I propose three proofs.
1. Ezekiel 37 predicts resurrection at Israel's restoration. Resurrection only takes place "when Christ comes" (1st Cor.15:23)
2. Daniel 12:1-2 predicts resurrection for Israel, but only after the Great Tribulation
3. In Matthew 24:31 those scattered to the "four winds" are gathered by angels. Only Israel was scattered to the four winds. This gathering in Matthew 24:31 only happens "after the Tribulation of those days".

The six points that the 70 sevens are given can only be fulfilled after (i) the Church is complete, (ii) after the Great Tribulation, and (iii) after the return of Messiah from the clouds. This will make the "gap" between Messiah cut off and the end of 70th seven THE CHURCH AGE.

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think that the matter is simpler (but not simple). The matter at hand is Daniel's People and their future. The way this future pans out is a matter of Gd's honor. God has made two Covenants with Israel. The first, made with Abraham and his seed contains only one stipulation upon Israel - circumcision. The second Covenant, made 430 years later at Horeb requires Israel to keep the Law of Moses. The first PROMISES the Land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession" for the seed of Abraham who are circumcised, and the second PROMISES that Israel will be ejected from th Land if thy break the Law. The first puts pressure on God because His PROMISES are immutable, and the second must be FULFILLED by men of the utmost weakness.

Galatians 3:15 tells us that a Covenant, even between men, cannot be just annulled or tampered with. Implied is that God's Covenant is incapable of being annulled or changed. God is bound to find a way to LEGALLY (for He is 100% righteous) to settle all obstacles that prevent Israel being ONE Nation and living in the Land while keeping the Law.

I am aware that the cry of objection will go up immediately that the goal is to get Israel believing in their Messiah. I agree. But if Israel are to reject their Messiah (which they did) they are obliged to carry on under Covenant - which they do. In Matthew 5 our Lord confirms the continuation of Law "till heaven and earth pass". The New Covenant, made with Israel (Jer.31:31-33) is new only in its placing. Instead of tables of stone, it is the "tables" of heart of every individual Jew.

It is at once obvious from Romans 11 that Israel remain hardened till "the fullness of the Gentiles". Now, whichever understanding you apply to this, Israel do NOT come to faith as it is defined in Hebrews 11:1. Their first reaction concerning their Messiah is to see Him burst out of the clouds over Mount Olives. And in "SEEING him" faith, which concerns the UNSEEN, is not applicable. Thus, the prophets, ending with Zacharias in Luke Chapter 1 predict a different salvation to those that have faith in Jesus.

The prophets predict Israel restored (e.g. Ezekiel 37). But this restoration is timed for when the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16). I propose three proofs.
1. Ezekiel 37 predicts resurrection at Israel's restoration. Resurrection only takes place "when Christ comes" (1st Cor.15:23)
2. Daniel 12:1-2 predicts resurrection for Israel, but only after the Great Tribulation
3. In Matthew 24:31 those scattered to the "four winds" are gathered by angels. Only Israel was scattered to the four winds. This gathering in Matthew 24:31 only happens "after the Tribulation of those days".

The six points that the 70 sevens are given can only be fulfilled after (i) the Church is complete, (ii) after the Great Tribulation, and (iii) after the return of Messiah from the clouds. This will make the "gap" between Messiah cut off and the end of 70th seven THE CHURCH AGE.

Very nice !!!! Thanks again for your thoughts. 
I certainly agree with much of what you have offered.

As I have mentioned, imo, there is no gap as it is interpreted today. 
 

1) there are two obligations or parties responsible for the restoration associated with the 70 weeks of years prophecy:

a) God will require the Jews to complete their part in the restoration- physical elements like the Temple, the walls, streets, etc. Also restore the 7 Holy Feasts Days, the Sabbatical cycles, and the Levitical ceremonies and practices. These were all taken away by the Babylonians. Within the 70 weeks prophecy, God would carve them into 3 separate sections to emphasize this. The first 49 literal years or the 7 weeks would prophesies these fulfillments. 
 
The middle section or the longest period of 434 literal years (62 weeks) were silent. 
 

But He would purposefully reveal or prophesied those elements that would and could only be fulfilled by the Messiah. This essentially is His method of locking the 3 times sections together and remove any and all doubt they are one period. He could easily have recorded one 70 weeks periods  totaling the 490 years, but this would not provide the support for when these separated events would occur and who is responsible for their fulfillment. They also tie perfectly with the  separate mentioning of His 7 and 62 week arrival, and His 62 week crucifixion. One can not separate the last week in the prophecy from that the start and ending (cross) of the Messiah. 
 

Obligations:

1) In 9:24, Daniel would identify the 6 God given requirements to the Messiah. These would ALL be fulfilled by Him in an “already, but not yet” manner. Certainly, He completely His mission despite being “cutoff,” but it will not be consummated until His return. 
 

2) Regarding the Jews, they too have / had fulfilled ALL of their obligations / requirements for the restoration. Everything was completed, and HAD to be completed BEFORE the Messiah could arrive. He would represent the final piece of furniture in the Sanctuary- the Ark of the Covenant. 
 

But the Jews would reject and crucify their Messiah and, as a result the counting of the final 4th Great Jubilee, which would have ended at the end of the last week of the prophecy, had stopped. The cross would occur 3.5 years into the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (all of this ties together to confirm their is no gap theory (as it has been created by the RCC). Thus, the only remaining time element that MUST be completed is that if the Jews. BEFORE the Messiah can return, their relationship with their God MUST  restored (no different than when it was restored after their return from Babylon and the “counting” of the 3rd Great Jubilee continued. In my opinion, this is also the reason God specifically identified a future period called the “time of the Gentiles.” At the end of this period, God will once again perform a divine act (exactly as He did with Paul), and remove the blindness from their eyes. They will go out into the world in sackcloth and ashes for these 3.5 years and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus JUST AS PAUL HAD AFTER THE CROSS. These symbolic 144,000 will be found throughout the earth. The people of the world, Jew, Christian, nonbelievers will hear such a different Gospel than what has been and is preached today. Then, after 3.5 years (mentioned in Revelation) the Messiah will return. 
 

So, yes, two things will still take place at the end of time related to the 70 weeks of years prophecy, but they are nothing like the intentionally corrupted interpretations associated with the 7 year tribulation. 
 

I certainly agree with you regarding the Covenant. God did not change / rewrite or create a NEW Covenant to give to His people. He did change the method of delivery. It was written in stone to signify it will NEVER be changed or altered. But He would and did place this Covenant WITHIN US. Now, as 2:44 records, He will not leave His kingdom to another people. The Jews were chosen to preach the one true God and His Word to the world- they failed and kept Him to themselves. Now, He will turn that responsibility and His Word over to the only one capable and willing to fulfill that - His Holy Spirit. Now, everything moves from the external to the internal and no man, religious organization, etc., can stop, change, alter His Word / His Covenant with each man. He has given us unlimited power to succeed- on an individual level should we ask for it. It is now such a personal Covenant. 
 

Of course I have NO idea how the Messiah will return… whether the Jews will literally see Him in the air and that event will begin their “Damascus experience.” I have not yet studied Revelation but I do know that so many of “today’s accepted interpretations” of Daniel are  so (imo), whether intentionally, or not, many of our interpretations of Revelation can not be correct. 
Daniel must be interpreted first, then Revelation. 
 

An example or two of this can be  seen: 

1) incorrect 7 year tribulation,

2) treating “he” in 9:27 as some anti-Christ figure rather than the Messiah.

3) treating the “confirming of the Covenant” between this mythical figure and the Jews at end times, rather than the “New Covenant” between Jesus and His people,

4) treating the 7 year period as a 7 year term  the period (last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy) when the Messiah would confirm it with His people at the time of the cross.

5) SOOOO many more … misinterpretations in Daniel that have moved on to corrupt Revelation. 
 

If you, or anyone would like to continue to the 70 weeks of years prophecy and offer their opinion / thoughts ( and I am quite sure they will not agree with mine / no problem), I look forward to them.

If not, I hope to learn of the next “sub-topic” within Daniel that is controversial or difficult to interpret. 
 

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Very nice !!!! Thanks again for your thoughts. 
I certainly agree with much of what you have offered.

As I have mentioned, imo, there is no gap as it is interpreted today. 
 

1) there are two obligations or parties responsible for the restoration associated with the 70 weeks of years prophecy:

a) God will require the Jews to complete their part in the restoration- physical elements like the Temple, the walls, streets, etc. Also restore the 7 Holy Feasts Days, the Sabbatical cycles, and the Levitical ceremonies and practices. These were all taken away by the Babylonians. Within the 70 weeks prophecy, God would carve them into 3 separate sections to emphasize this. The first 49 literal years or the 7 weeks would prophesies these fulfillments. 
 
The middle section or the longest period of 434 literal years (62 weeks) were silent. 
 

But He would purposefully reveal or prophesied those elements that would and could only be fulfilled by the Messiah. This essentially is His method of locking the 3 times sections together and remove any and all doubt they are one period. He could easily have recorded one 70 weeks periods  totaling the 490 years, but this would not provide the support for when these separated events would occur and who is responsible for their fulfillment. They also tie perfectly with the  separate mentioning of His 7 and 62 week arrival, and His 62 week crucifixion. One can not separate the last week in the prophecy from that the start and ending (cross) of the Messiah. 
 

Obligations:

1) In 9:24, Daniel would identify the 6 God given requirements to the Messiah. These would ALL be fulfilled by Him in an “already, but not yet” manner. Certainly, He completely His mission despite being “cutoff,” but it will not be consummated until His return. 
 

2) Regarding the Jews, they too have / had fulfilled ALL of their obligations / requirements for the restoration. Everything was completed, and HAD to be completed BEFORE the Messiah could arrive. He would represent the final piece of furniture in the Sanctuary- the Ark of the Covenant. 
 

But the Jews would reject and crucify their Messiah and, as a result the counting of the final 4th Great Jubilee, which would have ended at the end of the last week of the prophecy, had stopped. The cross would occur 3.5 years into the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (all of this ties together to confirm their is no gap theory (as it has been created by the RCC). Thus, the only remaining time element that MUST be completed is that if the Jews. BEFORE the Messiah can return, their relationship with their God MUST  restored (no different than when it was restored after their return from Babylon and the “counting” of the 3rd Great Jubilee continued. In my opinion, this is also the reason God specifically identified a future period called the “time of the Gentiles.” At the end of this period, God will once again perform a divine act (exactly as He did with Paul), and remove the blindness from their eyes. They will go out into the world in sackcloth and ashes for these 3.5 years and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus JUST AS PAUL HAD AFTER THE CROSS. These symbolic 144,000 will be found throughout the earth. The people of the world, Jew, Christian, nonbelievers will hear such a different Gospel than what has been and is preached today. Then, after 3.5 years (mentioned in Revelation) the Messiah will return. 
 

So, yes, two things will still take place at the end of time related to the 70 weeks of years prophecy, but they are nothing like the intentionally corrupted interpretations associated with the 7 year tribulation. 
 

I certainly agree with you regarding the Covenant. God did not change / rewrite or create a NEW Covenant to give to His people. He did change the method of delivery. It was written in stone to signify it will NEVER be changed or altered. But He would and did place this Covenant WITHIN US. Now, as 2:44 records, He will not leave His kingdom to another people. The Jews were chosen to preach the one true God and His Word to the world- they failed and kept Him to themselves. Now, He will turn that responsibility and His Word over to the only one capable and willing to fulfill that - His Holy Spirit. Now, everything moves from the external to the internal and no man, religious organization, etc., can stop, change, alter His Word / His Covenant with each man. He has given us unlimited power to succeed- on an individual level should we ask for it. It is now such a personal Covenant. 
 

Of course I have NO idea how the Messiah will return… whether the Jews will literally see Him in the air and that event will begin their “Damascus experience.” I have not yet studied Revelation but I do know that so many of “today’s accepted interpretations” of Daniel are  so (imo), whether intentionally, or not, many of our interpretations of Revelation can not be correct. 
Daniel must be interpreted first, then Revelation. 
 

An example or two of this can be  seen: 

1) incorrect 7 year tribulation,

2) treating “he” in 9:27 as some anti-Christ figure rather than the Messiah.

3) treating the “confirming of the Covenant” between this mythical figure and the Jews at end times, rather than the “New Covenant” between Jesus and His people,

4) treating the 7 year period as a 7 year term  the period (last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy) when the Messiah would confirm it with His people at the time of the cross.

5) SOOOO many more … misinterpretations in Daniel that have moved on to corrupt Revelation. 
 

If you, or anyone would like to continue to the 70 weeks of years prophecy and offer their opinion / thoughts ( and I am quite sure they will not agree with mine / no problem), I look forward to them.

If not, I hope to learn of the next “sub-topic” within Daniel that is controversial or difficult to interpret. 
 

 

Thanks for your reply. I haven't got much to add to my postings on page 1, so I'll leave it as it is. As I said in previous postings, I have never seen two serious students agree 100% on Daniel. May it go well with your studies. For Revelation you need a working knowledge of the whole rest of the Bible. Revelation is the capstone and consummation of God's economy ("oikonomia" Gk = household management). I believe that the rest of the Bible is quoted twice as many times as there are verses in Revelation.

Go well.

[Charlie744]

48 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply. I haven't got much to add to my postings on page 1, so I'll leave it as it is. As I said in previous postings, I have never seen two serious students agree 100% on Daniel. May it go well with your studies. For Revelation you need a working knowledge of the whole rest of the Bible. Revelation is the capstone and consummation of God's economy ("oikonomia" Gk = household management). I believe that the rest of the Bible is quoted twice as many times as there are verses in Revelation.

Go well.

Thanks for your reply. You seem to bring up some very interesting and difficult verses in Daniel. And, as you know, there is no consensus on most of the critical interpretations… 

Hope you might present some more to discuss. Best wishes, Charlie 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 3/22/2024 at 7:40 PM, Charlie744 said:

the Bible is not written according to the rules of our English language. Very often it is not written in chronological order and many times it is found to be presented in a “Chiastic” structure.

I agree. However, Hebrew does have antecedents and pronouns like English, so we shouldn't just wave the hand and discount a passage where rules of grammar conflict with our understanding.

But.... we can  look at Daniel 9:24-27 in a Chiasmus (chiastic structure).

 

The outside A + A' panels are parallel to one another. They suggest that the two accounts are plainly two different accounts, but are related to one another.

And indeed they are.

They contrast God's plan to establish Christ's Kingdom in Israel at the end of a 490 year period in verse 24.... with Satan's counterfeit plan to establish the Beast's kingdom in Israel within a seven year period at the end of Israel's history in verse 27.

Note the first marker set "weeks" where "seventy weeks" echoes "week" but it is referring to the seventieth one..... A + A'

The second marker set (B + B') shows when God announced making "reconciliation for iniquity", which would be thru Christ and put an end to sacrifice.... it was perverted by Satan and his Antichrist by only putting "an end to sacrifice and offering". The sacrifice is simply ended.

The third marker set (C) is God saying His people Israel would "anoint" the Most Holy..... but Antichrist did the opposite of anointing or consecrating by making his temple desolate.

These parallel structures of the markers in Dan 9:24 and 9:27 seems to show how "hell" would try to foil God's plan at the last minute (the  70th week).....that Satan would make his own decree replacing God's determination in verse 24, and would establish his own kingdom by making Jerusalem, God's Holy City, desolate.

The arrangement of these two verses suggests one reason why the 70th week (with tribulation et all) must occur is to allow Satan to counterfeit God's plan and lead many astray.

The B + B' converge towards the center of the passage.... and since they are converging, they are both part of the same course of events. This is appropriate,  since the outer  A + A' panels give a summary of the prophecy, and the narrative of the seventieth week itself. However, the inner B+B' panels are different, they give an account of Israel's history from the sixth century BC to 70 AD.

The central message, though, is reserved for panel C only to highlight the very central thought of all of the seventy-weeks prophecy and therefore of Hebrew Daniel. The central panel C is the arrival of Christ the first time and how He was received.

The B+B' panels frame the central panel. The B panel tells us of events prior to Messiah's coming, including the Jewish people getting ready which includes the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The B' panel, which shows events after Messiah, shows Jerusalem being destroyed.

Panel B talks about Messiah the Prince and in the second panel B' speaks of the people of the prince who is to come, ie. the antichrist. Jerusalem is destroyed by people related to the ruler to come. This was fulfilled in 70 AD by Syrian and Arabian men fighting as soldiers in Roman uniform in the Roman auxiliaries and legions. Rome tried to stop them from burning down the temple. The most inward markers contrast the building Jerusalem versus destroying Jerusalem. Therefore the main themes of the B+B' panels are a ruling prince....Christ or Antichrist.... and the city itself to be ruled, either being built up or torn down.

The central message for the entire seventy-weeks prophecy contained in panel C is that Jesus Christ will be rejected by Israel at a specific time and cut off so He does not rule Israel. Therefore, the B+B' panels are arranged in perfect converging structure to highlight the making ready prior to Messiah's first arrival, and the destruction to occur after Messiah is rejected.

Contrast the central message of Hebrew Daniel:

                         "And after sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, but not for                                     Himself"

with that of Aramaic Daniel in 4:37 shows a great contrast:

                           "Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of Heaven, because everything He does is right and all His ways are just. And those who walk in pride He is able to humble"

What stunning contrast!

Daniel 9:24-27 basically says that the Jewish nation will reject their Messiah and have Him crucified. As it says in John 1:11 "He came to His own and His own did not receive Him"

The Aramaic side of Daniel, in which gentiles are the audience, we see the most powerful gentile king praising God and extoling and honoring Him. Though Nebuchadnezzar lived 5 centuries before Christ, the king's testimony is for all gentiles since the message of Aramaic Daniel applies even to the end times as Daniel 7 testifies.

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Chronicles of the end times.... Mark Davidson