Solar Eclipse

[Jedi4Yahweh]

4 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

Easy experiment...

I tested this by casting a shadow of a penny onto another penny. The shadow was smaller, because the light source was larger.

I would like to see the results of your penny experiment.  Do you have any photos? 

4 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

The sun is much larger than the moon; and even at such a greater distance, it is still large enough to cast a smaller solid shadow.

Yes, the sun is said to be very large but at that distant (approx. 93 million miles away) its relatively small.  From earth when you look at the Sun its approximately the size of a quarter and would not be much different from the moon.  If the whole sky was filled with a massive sun and all you saw from horizon to horizon was flaming orange sun sky then maybe that argument would apply.  If the sun causes the moon to produce a shadow that is smaller than its actual size, then it would also have to work the same for other objects as well, but it doesn't.  Maybe your penny experiment can prove otherwise.  

[Indentured Servant]

2 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

I would like to see the results of your penny experiment.  Do you have any photos? 

Yes, the sun is said to be very large but at that distant (approx. 93 million miles away) its relatively small.  From earth when you look at the Sun its approximately the size of a quarter and would not be much different from the moon.  If the whole sky was filled with a massive sun and all you saw from horizon to horizon was flaming orange sun sky then maybe that argument would apply.  If the sun causes the moon to produce a shadow that is smaller than its actual size, then it would also have to work the same for other objects as well, but it doesn't.  Maybe your penny experiment can prove otherwise.  

I had photos, showed them to a flat earth proponent who wanted to argue it was impossible. I no longer invest my time in such matters, but I just thought I'd share that it is possible. 

Knowing the size and distance of both sun and moon and their relative positions when viewed from earth during a solar eclipse, this can be, and has been, calculated to show this, as well. It wouldn't take having the sun occupy any more of our view to accomplish this.  

Just a point to offer, if I may... When making reference to the sun, there are those who might take you more seriously if you don't describe it as "orange," or even yellow, for that matter. Some people may mistakenly measure one's ability to understand simple science because of this common misconception. 

It's not a difficult experiment. If I'd never gotten myself backed into a conversation that challenged me, I probably would not have found this out on my own. 

 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

58 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

I had photos, showed them to a flat earth proponent who wanted to argue it was impossible. I no longer invest my time in such matters, but I just thought I'd share that it is possible. 

Knowing the size and distance of both sun and moon and their relative positions when viewed from earth during a solar eclipse, this can be, and has been, calculated to show this, as well. It wouldn't take having the sun occupy any more of our view to accomplish this.  

Just a point to offer, if I may... When making reference to the sun, there are those who might take you more seriously if you don't describe it as "orange," or even yellow, for that matter. Some people may mistakenly measure one's ability to understand simple science because of this common misconception. 

It's not a difficult experiment. If I'd never gotten myself backed into a conversation that challenged me, I probably would not have found this out on my own. 

 

Wait!  So you don't have any proof of your so called easy penny experiment projecting a smaller shadow, nor are you willing to provide any proof???  I thought this was a simple easy experiment???

You know I see a lot of drawings and illustrations of such experiments but not once have I ever seen a real experiment that can be recreated where a projected shadow is less in size than the actual object.  You prove my point.

Edited April 4, 2024 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Indentured Servant]

2 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Wait!  So you don't have any proof of your so called easy penny experiment projecting a smaller shadow, nor are you willing to provide any proof???  I thought this was a simple easy experiment???

You know I see a lot of drawings and illustrations of such experiments but not once have I ever seen a real experiment that can be recreated where a projected shadow is less in size than the actual object.  You prove my point.

I wasn't aware that you didn't have two pennies and a light bulb. 

Pictures won't "prove" anything to someone who refuses to see truth. If I offered my photos, you would accuse me of faking them, I'm sure. 

When I said it was a simple experiment, I meant even you could figure it out if you just tried. If you're not willing to invest a little effort, why would you insist that I do?

I owe you nothing. 

 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

17 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

I wasn't aware that you didn't have two pennies and a light bulb. 

Pictures won't "prove" anything to someone who refuses to see truth. If I offered my photos, you would accuse me of faking them, I'm sure. 

When I said it was a simple experiment, I meant even you could figure it out if you just tried. If you're not willing to invest a little effort, why would you insist that I do?

I owe you nothing. 

 

No, I just figured you would be willing to back up your claim, like an honest person would.  Figured, I would let you run with your absurdity and I fully got what I expected from you.....nothing but a false claim and some dodge and rolls.

[Indentured Servant]

1 hour ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

No, I just figured you would be willing to back up your claim, like an honest person would.  Figured, I would let you run with your absurdity and I fully got what I expected from you.....nothing but a false claim and some dodge and rolls.

You actually think the world owes you an explanation for everything you don't understand?! You have issues that extend past your lack of trust. What is your real intent here? To expose the global conspiracy against YOU?! 

My initial response should have sufficed. Had I known you were going to make demands and accusations against me, I would not have wasted my time...

I supposed I found in you what I expected, as well. Perhaps I'd hoped for more than you have to offer. 

Please stop with your venomous comments. I sincerely meant to just offer that I, too, thought this was impossible... But rather than turn on everyone who offered information, I actually lifted a finger for myself. I suggest you do the same. It may change the self-inflicted "me-agsunst-the-world" persona you've comfortably wrapped yourself in...

And ditching the self-righteous attitude that your refusal to try something new gives you a right to strike out at others might allow others to trust showing you thigs even though they know you'll reject them no matter how much proof or evidence you're shown.

Please stop making harassing comments to me. I really thought my response was helpful. Please stop. I'm sorry if you're offended, but I do not deserve your hatred.

Please stop.

 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

20 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

I wasn't aware that you didn't have two pennies and a light bulb. 

 

What makes you assume I didn't?

Results:  Claim False

[tim_from_pa]

39 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

What makes you assume I didn't?

Results:  Claim False

If I may jump in here, a penny and a light bulb is not a good model because the sun's angular size is about 0.5 degrees.  A light bulb is more of a point source.  A penny is 0.75" in diameter so about 7 feet away it will appear 0.5 degrees looking from a point that distance and it can cover the sun.  If you are closer, it's greater than 0.5 degrees and can cover more of the sun so there's more latitude left or right you can see the sun covered.  If we bring our eyes right up to the penny, it would be the entire 0.75" width of the penny blocking the sun.  Conversely, if we are further than 7' away from the penny, it will only partly cover the sun because the angular diameter is less than 0.5 degrees.  This simulates an inferior planet transiting the sun as a "little dark spot" in front of the sun.  So yes, as one moves further away from the shadow of the penny, the umbra will get smaller and smaller until its nonexistent.  As an amateur astronomer and gnomonist myself, shadow "edges" are big things in the gnomon of a sundial.  There's been elaborate theory how to find the true edge of the shadow and thus the center of the sun for your local meridian, but the simplest way is to use a line or rod to cast the shadow, and then we know the true center of the sun.  But even this has it's limitations as such a gnomon on a sundial if one is too far away the shadow eventually become non-existent for all practical purposes as it becomes smaller and smaller (fuzzier) with distance.  If the sun shines tomorrow, I will take pictures using a penny to show that the shadow does get smaller at various distances - thus the same with the moon.  It's all geometry and trigonometry, actually.  In the meantime, did you see my illustration?  I think someone else posted the same type showing the umbra and penumbra of the moon.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

8 minutes ago, tim_from_pa said:

If I may jump in here, a penny and a light bulb is not a good model because the sun's angular size is about 0.5 degrees.  A light bulb is more of a point source.  A penny is 0.75" in diameter so about 7 feet away it will appear 0.5 degrees looking from a point that distance and it can cover the sun.  If you are closer, it's greater than 0.5 degrees and can cover more of the sun so there's more latitude left or right you can see the sun covered.  If we bring our eyes right up to the penny, it would be the entire 0.75" width of the penny blocking the sun.  Conversely, if we are further than 7' away from the penny, it will only partly cover the sun because the angular diameter is less than 0.5 degrees.  This simulates an inferior planet transiting the sun as a "little dark spot" in front of the sun.  So yes, as one moves further away from the shadow of the penny, the umbra will get smaller and smaller until its nonexistent.  As an amateur astronomer and gnomonist myself, shadow "edges" are big things in the gnomon of a sundial.  There's been elaborate theory how to find the true edge of the shadow and thus the center of the sun for your local meridian, but the simplest way is to use a line or rod to cast the shadow, and then we know the true center of the sun.  But even this has it's limitations as such a gnomon on a sundial if one is too far away the shadow eventually become non-existent for all practical purposes as it becomes smaller and smaller (fuzzier) with distance.  If the sun shines tomorrow, I will take pictures using a penny to show that the shadow does get smaller at various distances - thus the same with the moon.  It's all geometry and trigonometry, actually.  In the meantime, did you see my illustration?  I think someone else posted the same type showing the umbra and penumbra of the moon.

The point is not to replicate the Sun and Moon but to prove you can not get a smaller shadow than the object being projected upon...in any situation.   

Edited April 5, 2024 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Jedi4Yahweh]

1 hour ago, tim_from_pa said:

If I may jump in here, a penny and a light bulb is not a good model because the sun's angular size is about 0.5 degrees.  A light bulb is more of a point source.  A penny is 0.75" in diameter so about 7 feet away it will appear 0.5 degrees looking from a point that distance and it can cover the sun.  If you are closer, it's greater than 0.5 degrees and can cover more of the sun so there's more latitude left or right you can see the sun covered.  If we bring our eyes right up to the penny, it would be the entire 0.75" width of the penny blocking the sun.  Conversely, if we are further than 7' away from the penny, it will only partly cover the sun because the angular diameter is less than 0.5 degrees.  This simulates an inferior planet transiting the sun as a "little dark spot" in front of the sun.  So yes, as one moves further away from the shadow of the penny, the umbra will get smaller and smaller until its nonexistent.  As an amateur astronomer and gnomonist myself, shadow "edges" are big things in the gnomon of a sundial.  There's been elaborate theory how to find the true edge of the shadow and thus the center of the sun for your local meridian, but the simplest way is to use a line or rod to cast the shadow, and then we know the true center of the sun.  But even this has it's limitations as such a gnomon on a sundial if one is too far away the shadow eventually become non-existent for all practical purposes as it becomes smaller and smaller (fuzzier) with distance.  If the sun shines tomorrow, I will take pictures using a penny to show that the shadow does get smaller at various distances - thus the same with the moon.  It's all geometry and trigonometry, actually.  In the meantime, did you see my illustration?  I think someone else posted the same type showing the umbra and penumbra of the moon.

Yes I saw your illustration you posted.  I just don't think those illustrations match reality of how light expands as it goes outward. This is what makes shadows larger than the object. In the illustration you posted, it shows light doing the opposite and narrowing down and creating a smaller umbra shadow than the actual size of the object. 

Look at the photo I posted and you can see the umbra and penumbra. The umbra is larger than the object and the penumbra is just the thin edge of the actual shadow where the shadow is diffusing with the surrounding light.  Now compare that to the illustration you posted.

 

Edited April 5, 2024 by Jedi4Yahweh