" HE " ..............

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Who then, is this "prince" that will rule over the people who would destroy Israel. Do you means Jerusalem?

Joe, sorry for not being clear. Jerusalem will be destroyed by the “people” who will be subjected to this “prince who is to come.”

The “people” of Rome (pagan Roman army) under Titus will destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. 
 

These same people that fall under pagan Rome will also find themselves to fall under this “prince who is to come.”

When pagan Rome is destroyed, it will be replaced by papal Rome who is headed by the “little horn” (this prince). 
 

Jerusalem is completely destroyed in 70 AD. Then, pagan Rome will begin its decline until it is no more around 467 AD. But during the slow decline of pagan Rome, the Christian church is growing exponentially and becomes a very powerful entity in the Roman Empire. 
 

When pagan Rome is dissolved the Christian church will replace it and these “people” will now serve under this “prince” who had come to full power over the church (the little horn is now sitting atop the 4th beast kingdom). 
 

Hope this is somewhat clearer. 

[Charlie744]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:28 AM, Diaste said:

You forgot to mention the Holy Spirit guided you to this conclusion.

Dan 9:26

Then after the sixty-two weeksh the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

Dan 9:27

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.k”

9:27 begins with, 

Then the people of the prince who is to come...

So after the Messiah is cut off, THEN, there is a 'prince who is to come'. This isn't the Messiah.

The 'prince who is to come' is the direct antecedent of 'he' here, "he will confirm a covenant" and here, "he will put an end to sacrifice and offering". 
 

1) the Messiah will be “cutoff” in 30AD (exactly 3.5 years AFTER He began His ministry which began on the 1st day of the 70th week of the prophecy).

2) the “prince who is to come” does not come immediately after the cross, but he does come out of the 4th beast kingdom of Rome (pagan Rome because there is no other “Rome” other than pagan Rome until 467 AD when it will come to its end and be replaced by papal Rome). 

3) I don’t believe the book of Daniel being translated can be found to obey the English grammar laws. 
 

a) if we believe these verses in chapter 9 are messianic (and they are), these most important verses speak of the coming Messiah, His God given mission for Him to complete BEFORE the cross (9:24), and,

  b) the only covenant that MUST be considered is the one He specifically came to the earth to enter into WITH HIS PEOPLE. It is specifically mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the first section (large) of chapter 9 speaks of Daniel’s prayer and supplication and refers to His covenant with His people,

  c) to continue the seamless list of comments / prophecies within these verses, it is absolutely clear the Messiah DID “confirm” a New Covenant with His people. 
 

  d) this “Covenant” between Jesus and His people was confirmed DURING OR WITHIN the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. There is no such covenant or agreement that is prophesied BY God in Daniel that would speak to or about some mythical anti-Christ figure coming some 2000 years or more in the future. 
    

e) There are two sets of prophecies in 9:24-27: a “restorative” set (9:24-25), which is the purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. This covers ALL the elements that HAD to be restored after Babylon destroyed everything. The very last element to be restored was the “Ark of the Covenant” in the form of the coming Messiah on the very first day if the 70th week. God would “set aside” this last week or 7 years for His Messiah to fulfill His mission. The Jews had fulfilled ALL of their elements (Temple, walls, Levitical ceremonies, etc.,) but they were incapable of restoring the “Ark” or the presence of God in the Sanctuary. Thus, this could only be fulfilled by Jesus. Therefore, ALL of the elements would be fully restored by the Jews (by the end of the 69th week), and the Messiah would restore the only remaining element on the day He was baptized AND anointed by His Father in the Jordan. Meaning, the 70 weeks of years prophecy was completed WITIN the 70 weeks. 
 

  However, and unfortunately, these 4 verses also reveal the 2 “destructive” prophecies- 9:26-27. These DO NOT CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER AWAY FROM THE MESSIAH OR HIS PEOPLE WHO WOULD REJECT AND CRUCIFY HIM!!!!

 They go on to speak how “HE” would be “cut off in the midst of the week” - who else was crucified exactly 3.5 years INTO this final 7 years? He would “confirm  the Covenant” with His people despite being “cut off.” And it would not be a 7 year covenant but it was to BE CONFIRMED DURING OR WITHIN the 7 year period God had “set aside” for Him. 
 

 

 

On 4/5/2024 at 3:28 AM, Diaste said:

 

Did Jesus put and end to sacrifice and oblation? No.

Of course He did!! Jesus was the Lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world. His sacrifice would eliminate the need for any further animal sacrifices or offerings that were found within the Levitical system. They, including the Temple, the Sanctuary and the first 4 Feast Days were now “fulfilled.” They were a “type and shadow” of His coming. 
 

Only those Jews who would continue to reject Him as their Messiah would want to continue with the Levitical ceremonies and practices, but they would find themselves to be “ made desolate” with their God for some 2000 years. It didn’t matter if they wanted to keep the ceremonies or the Temple.. THEIR MISSION WITHIN GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION WAS FULFILLED. 

 

On 4/5/2024 at 3:28 AM, Diaste said:

The Jews were still sacrificing in the Temple the day it was destroyed in 70 AD; the Temple being destroyed by the legion X Fretensis, made up of Syrian and other Arab conscripts, contrary to the orders of General Titus. 

Yes, you are correct but this meant nothing to God other than these people of His continued to reject Him as their Messiah. After this continued show of final rejection? God would use the Roman Army to destroy all the physical elements that HAD BEEN RESTORED during the 70 weeks of years prophecy, AND He would now become completely “desolate” with them for the next 2000 years. They would not have any access to THEIR GOD. 

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Joe, sorry for not being clear. Jerusalem will be destroyed by the “people” who will be subjected to this “prince who is to come.”

The “people” of Rome (pagan Roman army) under Titus will destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. 
 

These same people that fall under pagan Rome will also find themselves to fall under this “prince who is to come.”

When pagan Rome is destroyed, it will be replaced by papal Rome who is headed by the “little horn” (this prince). 
 

Jerusalem is completely destroyed in 70 AD. Then, pagan Rome will begin its decline until it is no more around 467 AD. But during the slow decline of pagan Rome, the Christian church is growing exponentially and becomes a very powerful entity in the Roman Empire. 
 

When pagan Rome is dissolved the Christian church will replace it and these “people” will now serve under this “prince” who had come to full power over the church (the little horn is now sitting atop the 4th beast kingdom). 
 

Hope this is somewhat clearer. 

Ok... So I think what you are saying is,  "pagan Rome", when it is completely "no more", is then replaced by "papal Rome", sometime around 467 (you maybe meant 476).

The Christian Church will then replace it (pagan Rome) and these "people" will now serve under the "prince" who is the little horn.

So the Christian Church is "papal Rome"?

Is this correct?

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Ok... So I think what you are saying is,  "pagan Rome", when it is completely "no more", is then replaced by "papal Rome", sometime around 467 (you maybe meant 476).

The Christian Church will then replace it (pagan Rome) and these "people" will now serve under the "prince" who is the little horn.

So the Christian Church is "papal Rome"?

Is this correct?

Yes. The Christian church had become so powerful while pagan Rome was in their decline. 
 

In chapter 7, Daniel tells us the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome - there was no other “Rome” but this is at the time they were known as “Imperial Rome”), would be slain and its body destroyed. 
 

Soon thereafter, the powerful Christian church would come to full power over both church and state matters. This is when the bishop of Rome would “win out” the leadership of the Christian church over the 3 other powerful Christian centers of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. He would be come to be recognized or called “the pope” and papal Rome would rule where pagan Rome had once ruled. 
 

But the “people” of the “prince who is to come,” are the same people who were ruled by pagan Rome. Now, they serve under papal Rome. 
 

The little horn is this same “prince who is to come” - the papacy). Chapters 7 and 8 provide so many details that on what this “little horn” will do and when he will take power it can only be one who had “eyes like a man and speaks blasphemous things …”

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

1) the Messiah will be “cutoff” in 30AD (exactly 3.5 years AFTER He began His ministry which began on the 1st day of the 70th week of the prophecy).

The prophecy doesn't demand this.

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

2) the “prince who is to come” does not come immediately after the cross, but he does come out of the 4th beast kingdom of Rome (pagan Rome because there is no other “Rome” other than pagan Rome until 467 AD when it will come to its end and be replaced by papal Rome). 

Doesn't have to, "Then the people of the prince who is to come..." That prince isn't Jesus. Jesus didn't destroy the Temple, Arabs did, Jesus didn't stop the rituals, the people who destroyed the Temple did. 

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3) I don’t believe the book of Daniel being translated can be found to obey the English grammar laws. 

If it's translated into English, it better obey English grammar rules or, what a mess that would be.

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

a) if we believe these verses in chapter 9 are messianic (and they are), these most important verses speak of the coming Messiah, His God given mission for Him to complete BEFORE the cross (9:24), and,

Belief isn't enough, facts must prove this. A person can believe anything, right or wrong.

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

  b) the only covenant that MUST be considered is the one He specifically came to the earth to enter into WITH HIS PEOPLE. It is specifically mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the first section (large) of chapter 9 speaks of Daniel’s prayer and supplication and refers to His covenant with His people,

Sounds more like preconceptions and conclusions before fact.

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

  c) to continue the seamless list of comments / prophecies within these verses, it is absolutely clear the Messiah DID “confirm” a New Covenant with His people. 

Sure. But the prophecy lists several things that must occur placing it in the realm of fulfillment at a different time than the 1st century and well past 70 AD.

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

  d) this “Covenant” between Jesus and His people was confirmed DURING OR WITHIN the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. There is no such covenant or agreement that is prophesied BY God in Daniel that would speak to or about some mythical anti-Christ figure coming some 2000 years or more in the future. 

Not really. The OT is the same as the NT, just hidden. The NT is the OT, revealed. It's always been Jesus and no one was ever saved that was not saved by Him and through Him. It has always been grace. Not new, just no longer hidden. 

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

 They go on to speak how “HE” would be “cut off in the midst of the week” - who else was crucified exactly 3.5 years INTO this final 7 years? He would “confirm  the Covenant” with His people despite being “cut off.” And it would not be a 7 year covenant but it was to BE CONFIRMED DURING OR WITHIN the 7 year period God had “set aside” for Him. 

"Then after the sixty-two weeksh the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing."

After 62 weeks. This says nothing about being cut off in the middle of a week. We should not associate events in this way. 69 weeks were up, Jesus died and was resurrected. Don't add.

 

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Of course He did!! Jesus was the Lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world. His sacrifice would eliminate the need for any further animal sacrifices or offerings that were found within the Levitical system. They, including the Temple, the Sanctuary and the first 4 Feast Days were now “fulfilled.” They were a “type and shadow” of His coming. 

The prophecy doesn't say 'render meaningless and/or ineffective'. The prophecy requires the cessation of physical ritual. 

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Only those Jews who would continue to reject Him as their Messiah would want to continue with the Levitical ceremonies and practices, but they would find themselves to be “ made desolate” with their God for some 2000 years. It didn’t matter if they wanted to keep the ceremonies or the Temple.. THEIR MISSION WITHIN GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION WAS FULFILLED. 

Then I guess the sacrifice and offering didn't stop in the Temple. And it does matter, for the prophecy to be fulfilled it matters very much.

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Yes, you are correct but this meant nothing to God other than these people of His continued to reject Him as their Messiah. After this continued show of final rejection? God would use the Roman Army to destroy all the physical elements that HAD BEEN RESTORED during the 70 weeks of years prophecy, AND He would now become completely “desolate” with them for the next 2000 years. They would not have any access to THEIR GOD. 

No physical elements were restored. Jesus fulfilled prophecy, He didn't come to make up for what the Jews were called to do. He's not a helicopter parent. 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:57 AM, SACREDWARRIOR said:

WHEN DID/DO THE END TIMES , AS SPOKEN IN THE BIBLE BEGAN/BEGAN?

popular belief #1, is an end time period of 7 years where both satan & Jesus duke it out for control of mankind. satans champion known as the anti-christ....

It May surprise you to know that a 7 year period of this nature CAN NOT BE FOUND WITHIN THE PAGES OF THE BIBLE!!!!!

The Prophet Daniel, speaks of a period of 70 weeks of years.....hence....7 year divisions per se. it is however not given emphatically as to how these weeks of years are to be split up......we know FROM SCRIPTURE When the 69th week began/concluded.....but again this is A WHOLE not a perfect mathematical divide.

the rest of the puzzle, wrests on how you interpret the "HE" IN DANIEL 9:27

[Dan 9:27 ]

Of course it is, a Covenant in Hebrew simply means an Agreement, only if it is from God is it an holy covenant, so you assuming that is on you. I will post the passage, remember, the bible has no verses, I will split it up as meant. The Three Verses they end the chapter with in the KJV should have been two verses.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again(49 years), and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:(434)...I will edit here to make a point, after 173880 days the Messiah will be CUT-OFF or die. That's the way one should interpret this, just like 49 years is 49 years, not 49 PLUS years. 

SHOULD BE DIVIDED HERE !!

and the people(Romans) of the prince that shall come shall(A.C. 2000 years later) destroy the city and the sanctuary(in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(70 AD Roman army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (The Diaspora).  27 And he(A.C. man) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(with Israel and every nation in the Mediterranean Sea Region, see the European Neighborhood Policy on  wiki it runs in 7 year cycles, no kidding): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, let me give this to you in easy to understand modern English.

The wall is prophesied to be built in a 49 years period, it is coupled with Jesus death, see who its ADDED TOGETHER? The 7 weeks and 62 weeks are a bundle, thus Jesus dies after the 62 plus 7 or after 69 weeks or after 483 years since 434 + 49 = 483.

Then we jump 2000 some odd years to the prince (small p) who is to come, he comes out of the European base of the Roman Fourth Beast (see Dan. 7:7-8 it states this emphatically), the same people mentioned in verse 26 at the end of the verse, which should go with vs. 27, they destroy the City (Jerusalem) and the temple and send the Jews off into bondage (Diaspora) where God has set up their punishment for a certain time He has chosen (Desolations to be DETERMINED, get it now? Its from God)

Then we get the "He" who is the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast to come. Thus He makes an agreement with Israel, and the many, which means they must have been brought back from being Dead Men's Bones like Ezekiel 37 says will happen at the very end of times. In the midst (1290 which is 30 days before the exact middle of the week or 1260 event) he CAUSES...see that he CAUSES, he can not be the 1290 because he only conquers Israel at the 1260, which is 30 days later. So, he CAUSES but how so? How could he cause this from afar? The Covenant or AGREEMENT is this, Israel will join the E.U. and thus at the 1290, after Israel repents at the 1335 (Two-witnesses Blessing) just before the Wrath of God falls at the 1260, the Anti-Christ will see 1/3 of the Jews (5 million or so) Worshipping Jesus in the temple, this of course makes him irate and he pressures Israel's Prime Minister AND most importantly the High Priest (False Prophet) to "TAKE AWAY THE SACRIFICE" or to forbid Jesus worship in the temple and/or in all Israel. Then this High Priest will defile the temple like Jason did under Antiochus, BUT....THINK you can not defile something not made whole again, God rent the temple (left) and ever since it was defiled, and remained so until 70 AD, just building a new temple will no cleanse it, only when Israel repents will it be cleansed. 

The bible says Israel repents BEFORE God Wrath falls. In  Zech. 13:8-9 we see the 1/3 repent, one verse later in Zech. 14:1 we see the Day of the Lord ARRIVES !! Then Israel gets sacked in vs. 2 and Jesus shows up in vs. 3. Also, in Malachi 4:5-6 we see Elijah is sent back BEFORE the DOTL to get Israel to repent (at the 1335, which is 45 days before the 1290 which is 30 days before the coming 1260 Wrath where God allows the Beast to go forth conquering). Thus there is a 30 day window for Israel to flee Judea before the Beast conquers them. How can the temple be DEFILED if it never got CLEANSED? Answer, it can't be. Now look at Rev. 13 who is it that places THE IMAGE? The False Prophet, not the Beast himself. In short a Jewish High Priest in cahoots with the E.U. President will forbid Jesus Worship and the cheekily place an Image of the E.U. president up in the temple, therefore that is THE SIGN for the 5 million or so Jews who repented to flee to the mountains in  Jordan.

 

 

 

Edited April 8 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course it is, a Covenant in Hebrew simply means an Agreement, only if it is from God is it an holy covenant, so you assuming that is on you. I will post the passage, remember, the bible has no verses, I will split it up as meant. The Three Verses they end the chapter with in the KJV should have been two verses.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again(49 years), and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:(434)

SHOULD BE DIVIDED HERE !!

and the people(Romans) of the prince that shall come shall(A.C. 2000 years later) destroy the city and the sanctuary(in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(70 AD Roman army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (The Diaspora).  27 And he(A.C. man) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(with Israel and every nation in the Mediterranean Sea Region, see the European Neighborhood Policy on  wiki it runs in 7 year cycles, no kidding): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, let me give this to you in easy to understand modern English.

The wall is prophesied to be built in a 49 years period, it is coupled with Jesus death, see who its ADDED TOGETHER? The 7 weeks and 62 weeks are a bundle, thus Jesus dies after the 62 plus 7 or after 69 weeks or after 483 years since 434 + 49 = 483.

Then we jump 2000 some odd years to the prince (small p) who is to come, he comes out of the European base of the Roman Fourth Beast (see Dan. 7:7-8 it states this emphatically), the same people mentioned in verse 26 at the end of the verse, which should go with vs. 27, they destroy the City (Jerusalem) and the temple and send the Jews off into bondage (Diaspora) where God has set up their punishment for a certain time He has chosen (Desolations to be DETERMINED, get it now? Its from God)

Then we get the "He" who is the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast to come. Thus He makes an agreement with Israel, and the many, which means they must have been brought back from being Dead Men's Bones like Ezekiel 37 says will happen at the very end of times. In the midst (1290 which is 30 days before the exact middle of the week or 1260 event) he CAUSES...see that he CAUSES, he can not be the 1290 because he only conquers Israel at the 1260, which is 30 days later. So, he CAUSES but how so? How could he cause this from afar? The Covenant or AGREEMENT is this, Israel will join the E.U. and thus at the 1290, after Israel repents at the 1335 (Two-witnesses Blessing) just before the Wrath of God falls at the 1260, the Anti-Christ will see 1/3 of the Jews (5 million or so) Worshipping Jesus in the temple, this of course makes him irate and he pressures Israel's Prime Minister AND most importantly the High Priest (False Prophet) to "TAKE AWAY THE SACRIFICE" or to forbid Jesus worship in the temple and/or in all Israel. Then this High Priest will defile the temple like Jason did under Antiochus, BUT....THINK you can not defile something not made whole again, God rent the temple (left) and ever since it was defiled, and remained so until 70 AD, just building a new temple will no cleanse it, only when Israel repents will it be cleansed. 

The bible says Israel repents BEFORE God Wrath falls. In  Zech. 13:8-9 we see the 1/3 repent, one verse later in Zech. 14:1 we see the Day of the Lord ARRIVES !! Then Israel gets sacked in vs. 2 and Jesus shows up in vs. 3. Also, in Malachi 4:5-6 we see Elijah is sent back BEFORE the DOTL to get Israel to repent (at the 1335, which is 45 days before the 1290 which is 30 days before the coming 1260 Wrath where God allows the Beast to go forth conquering). Thus there is a 30 day window for Israel to flee Judea before the Beast conquers them. How can the temple be DEFILED if it never got CLEANSED? Answer, it can't be. Now look at Rev. 13 who is it that places THE IMAGE? The False Prophet, not the Beast himself. In short a Jewish High Priest in cahoots with the E.U. President will forbid Jesus Worship and the cheekily place an Image of the E.U. president up in the temple, therefore that is THE SIGN for the 5 million or so Jews who repented to flee to the mountains in  Jordan.

 

 

 

There are clearly some of the comments above that I agree with.. but some we differ… and that’s fine! I place these events all within a “continuous or consecutive” 70 weeks of years prophecy while RM has a “futurist” view where the last 7 years or the last week of the prophecy is still yet to come. And I might add that, without discussing the “details” of the last week, today’s accepted interpretations follow the “futurist” view.

I certainly agree that the Messiah was crucified AFTER the 7 AND 62 weeks (combined 69 weeks) were completed. And to me this can only mean the Messiah arrived and was crucified AFTER this “combined” period ended - which can only be within the 70th week. And we certainly agree His ministry was 3.5 years before the cross. 

Further, the Messiah did come to the earth to enter into a “New Covenant” with His people and that “Covenant” like any of the Covenants God made are not for a fixed period, ie., 7 years. They are conditional but remain always. Here, many accept the covenant is FOR a 7 year period rather than the Covenant is made by God DURING the last 7 years of the prophecy. 
 

I think another element I find interesting is the “timing” of these events. In chapter 7 the 4th kingdom beast is described as an “indescribable” animal, not found to resemble any on earth. Daniel tells us that the 10 horns and a little horn will come out of this 4th kingdom beast. This 4th kingdom beast is Imperial or pagan Rome. And this is the period when the 70 weeks of years prophecy will take place. The last week is also the end of the 4th and final Great Jubilee. All of the events in 9:24-27 will take place WITHIN these 70 weeks with the exception of the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Although the “little horn” will not come to “full power” until around 500 AD, he did arrive after the Cross. 
 

But all of these things took place BEFORE the 4th beast kingdom (Imperial or pagan Rome) was slain or destroyed (chapter 7). Chapter 9 represents the “mareh” vision that took place within the last week of the prophecy. Just as the 7 and the 62 weeks are a “unit” that represents the total number of weeks BEFORE the Messiah would be baptized in the Jordan on the first day of the 70th week, the events within 9:24-27 are one “unit” of events that speak of the Messiah, His mission, the Cross, the Jews rejection, the New Covenant offered by Jesus, the destruction of the Temple and how God would punish His people for the next 2000 years by making them completely “desolate” to Him… they would no longer have access to their God. 
 

So, it is all tied together and prophesied in the most important prophecy in the Scriptures - the 70 weeks of years prophecy that reveals the coming of the Messiah. To me this is clear! But as I mentioned, MOST commentators have split apart the events / actors within 9:24-27 into those that are messianic and those that are thrown into the far future and attributed to an “anti-Christ” figure. 
 

But all of these events had to take place BEFORE the demise of Imperial Rome in 476  AD. 
 

Just my opinion.