Two times God gathers Israel, the next time is when He comes

[dad2]

The first time was the captivity in Babylon. This seems to make it clear that any other gatherings are not of God. For example they are gathered there today.

Isa 11:11 The verse tells of a second time God will gather Jewish people.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, dad2 said:

The first time was the captivity in Babylon. This seems to make it clear that any other gatherings are not of God. For example they are gathered there today.

Isa 11:11 The verse tells of a second time God will gather Jewish people.

Jewish people, or Israel?

[dad2]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Jewish people, or Israel?

Isaiah 11:10

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 11:11

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isaiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 So the next gathering by God will be after He returns and Israel is saved.

[AdHoc]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:37 AM, dad2 said:

The first time was the captivity in Babylon. This seems to make it clear that any other gatherings are not of God. For example they are gathered there today.

Isa 11:11 The verse tells of a second time God will gather Jewish people.

For the fulfillment of His plan, God needs Israel. Even if it were only a matter of honoring His Covenant with Abraham and his seed, God needs Abraham and his seed in the Good Land. Your posting alludes to how God fulfills His need. The history shows an unsatisfactory ending SO FAR. After His Covenant with Abraham, Abraham remained a "sojourner". So also Isaac. Jacob even left the Land for about 21 years to work for Laban. And then he spent his closing years in Egypt. Four generations lived and died OUTSIDE the Good Land and shows His displeasure at the generation that died in the wilderness in Hebrews Chapter 3. Chapter 4 of Hebrews outlines the failure of the generation that went in, for thier generations did not even occupy the Land for 1,000 years - a "day" for God as He calls it His REST (alluding to a Sabbath).

Again, at Cyrus' command to free Judah after 70 years captivity, only 2.5% of the Jews retunred for God's heart's desire to have a Land and a Temple. 97.5% stayed in Babylon. Te book of Esther deals with them and God never once identifies Himself with them (excpt to faithfully save them from the Amalekite who they failed to exterminate. The 2.5% who returned built the Temple that was needed for Christ to fulfill the Law, but in the 400 years they had to wait for Messiah, they descended into crisis. When our Lord came, Judah was beset with foreign government, sickness, poverty, and demon possession.

In 70 AD Judah was defeated and dispersed till 1948. Accurate numbers are hard to get, but the present day Jewish State, declared by the Heathen, has about 8 million Jews. The other 7-8 million still refuse to return. So the question posed by the Thread is very valid. But which prophecy do we turn to for 1948?

The answer is at once easy and difficult. In His Covenant with Abraham, God PROMISED Canaan for "an EVERLASTING POSSESSION". The infidel at once gloats and points out, very correctly, that this prophecy cannot be fulfilled because MEN DIE. Since Abraham, Canaan and the remaindr of the inhabited earth is full of the bones of the seed of Abraham - not to mention Abraham and six generations who fell in Egypt and never even possessed the Good Land. So, the precise student of scripture cannot say that God has fulfilled His Promises, but the same student has Ezekiel 37 which promises BOTH the resurrection of all seed of Abraham, the uniting of Northern and Southern Kingdoms AND their gathering to Canaan. But it is future for two reasons;
1. The great test for prophecy is history. Even prophecy that uses symbolism must have a literal fulfillment SOMETIME. And never, in recorded history has Ezekiel 37 come near to being fulfilled
2. The Kingdom of Israel is bound to the King's House. David will raised and made king over Israel (Jer.30:9). And Act 15:14-16 says that this only happens when God has FINISHED THE CHURCH

But there is another prophecy that needs Israel, Jerusalem and its Temple. That of Daniel 9 and 2nd Thessalonians 2. In both these Chapters a Physical Temple is needed. Not only will the predicted Beast need a Holy Place to occupy, but the Covenant that this Roman Prince makes with Israel is the Covenant that contains the daily oblation. And the daily oblation need a Temple with its altar. And surely this is verified by the grand sign of the end of this age - The Fig Tree's LEAVES (Matt.24). From Adam we know that leaves are a "covering" - a "Garment". And Revelation 19:7-8 says that the garment is our works. If Judah is the Fig Tree, what will its works be? Why, the Law of Moses - the same Law that contains the daily oblation.

Our usual answer to the question that the Title of the Thread poses, is that God is not in any prophecy about present day Israel. But if one looks at what is written above, we must say that God is in EVERY MOVE concerning Israel today. We just can't see the end unfolding out of the present.

[WilliamL]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:37 AM, dad2 said:

The first time was the captivity in Babylon. This seems to make it clear that any other gatherings are not of God. For example they are gathered there today.

Isa 11:11 The verse tells of a second time God will gather Jewish people.

Ezekiel 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

39As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols. 40For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things. 41I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen. 42And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

[dad2]

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For the fulfillment of His plan, God needs Israel. Even if it were only a matter of honoring His Covenant with Abraham and his seed, God needs Abraham and his seed in the Good Land. Your posting alludes to how God fulfills His need. The history shows an unsatisfactory ending SO FAR.

God needs nothing but informed us Israel would be around in the end, being killed and under the wrath of God etc in the end.

Quote

Again, at Cyrus' command to free Judah after 70 years captivity, only 2.5% of the Jews retunred for God's heart's desire to have a Land and a Temple. 97.5% stayed in Babylon. Te book of Esther deals with them and God never once identifies Himself with them (excpt to faithfully save them from the Amalekite who they failed to exterminate. The 2.5% who returned built the Temple that was needed for Christ to fulfill the Law, but in the 400 years they had to wait for Messiah, they descended into crisis. When our Lord came, Judah was beset with foreign government, sickness, poverty, and demon possession.

Since God, speaking in the first Person said the second time He will gather them is after He returns in the end, we know as far as He is concerned there were the two times. One is over the other is yet to come.

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In 70 AD Judah was defeated and dispersed till 1948. Accurate numbers are hard to get, but the present day Jewish State, declared by the Heathen, has about 8 million Jews. The other 7-8 million still refuse to return. So the question posed by the Thread is very valid. But which prophecy do we turn to for 1948?

Whatever one we look at it will change nothing. Sorry 1948 is not prominent in the bible. The next time GOD returns them to the land is yet to come.

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The answer is at once easy and difficult. In His Covenant with Abraham, God PROMISED Canaan for "an EVERLASTING POSSESSION".

That neither means to unbelieving children nor that they would get that land right away forever. They only get it after they are saved and He is here and gives it to those saved folks. Obviously they were booted out by God from that land after Abraham, so we know the only time they will get it forever (the saved ones) will be in the very end.

Quote

The infidel at once gloats and points out, very correctly, that this prophecy cannot be fulfilled because MEN DIE. Since Abraham, Canaan and the remaindr of the inhabited earth is full of the bones of the seed of Abraham - not to mention Abraham and six generations who fell in Egypt and never even possessed the Good Land. So, the precise student of scripture cannot say that God has fulfilled His Promises, but the same student has Ezekiel 37 which promises BOTH the resurrection of all seed of Abraham, the uniting of Northern and Southern Kingdoms AND their gathering to Canaan. But it is future for two reasons;
1. The great test for prophecy is history. Even prophecy that uses symbolism must have a literal fulfillment SOMETIME. And never, in recorded history has Ezekiel 37 come near to being fulfilled
2. The Kingdom of Israel is bound to the King's House. David will raised and made king over Israel (Jer.30:9). And Act 15:14-16 says that this only happens when God has FINISHED THE CHURCH

God has finished the church when the tribulation starts. That is not an issue for after the tribulation when the remnant in Israel get saved.

Quote

But there is another prophecy that needs Israel, Jerusalem and its Temple. That of Daniel 9 and 2nd Thessalonians 2. In both these Chapters a Physical Temple is needed. Not only will the predicted Beast need a Holy Place to occupy, but the Covenant that this Roman Prince makes with Israel is the Covenant that contains the daily oblation. And the daily oblation need a Temple with its altar. And surely this is verified by the grand sign of the end of this age - The Fig Tree's LEAVES (Matt.24). From Adam we know that leaves are a "covering" - a "Garment". And Revelation 19:7-8 says that the garment is our works. If Judah is the Fig Tree, what will its works be? Why, the Law of Moses - the same Law that contains the daily oblation.

Our usual answer to the question that the Title of the Thread poses, is that God is not in any prophecy about present day Israel. But if one looks at what is written above, we must say that God is in EVERY MOVE concerning Israel today. We just can't see the end unfolding out of the present.

Not true. He is not for terrorists at all. He will only be for them and protect and restore them after they are saved in the end. They have no connection to God in their evil rebellious sinful actions today.

[dad2]

On 4/20/2024 at 4:50 AM, Diaste said:

Jewish people, or Israel?

Both.

[dad2]

Quote

Ezekiel 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The next time God gathers them is the second time when they get saved in the end. Looking at some commentaries (example: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bbc/ezekiel-20.html#verse-27)   I see that this is about the first time.

Since God makes it clear the SECOND time is when He returns and after they are saved, we know that has to be the case.

 

[Charlie744]

21 minutes ago, dad2 said:

God needs nothing but informed us Israel would be around in the end, being killed and under the wrath of God etc in the end.

Since God, speaking in the first Person said the second time He will gather them is after He returns in the end, we know as far as He is concerned there were the two times. One is over the other is yet to come.

Whatever one we look at it will change nothing. Sorry 1948 is not prominent in the bible. The next time GOD returns them to the land is yet to come.

That neither means to unbelieving children nor that they would get that land right away forever. They only get it after they are saved and He is here and gives it to those saved folks. Obviously they were booted out by God from that land after Abraham, so we know the only time they will get it forever (the saved ones) will be in the very end.

God has finished the church when the tribulation starts. That is not an issue for after the tribulation when the remnant in Israel get saved.

Not true. He is not for terrorists at all. He will only be for them and protect and restore them after they are saved in the end. They have no connection to God in their evil rebellious sinful actions today.

Yes, there is no need for another Temple, Sanctuary, Levitical ceremonies, animal sacrifices or offerings. They were a type and shadow of the coming Messiah. And He fulfilled them all during His  3.5 year ministry. Their mission within His plan of salvation was completed. 
 

In chapter 2, the Stone (Messiah) would strike the feet of the image. This is the feet of the 4th iron kingdom of Rome. Rome would conquer the known world and would make all nations subservient to their commands. Israel, the symbolic clay within the feet would be separated from the iron (the iron and the clay would be broken apart or into pieces in a non- military manner. It was the Jews belief the Messiah would accomplish this by defeating Rome in a military like manner, but God was concerned with the spiritual battle and would break His people out from the iron kingdom in this manner).

If we look at His people AFTER the cross (Paul, John, Matthew, etc.), they would be chosen by God (out of the ceramic clay identified in verses 2:41-43) and go out into the world preaching the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus. These people would be referred to as “pottery clay” within these same verses. 
 

Meaning, there is absolutely nothing written in the NT where Paul, John, Matthew or ANY of His followers that spoke of another Temple, Sanctuary, animal sacrifices, or offerings AFTER the cross. They understood that Jesus had done away with the need for them. 

However, those of His people that refused to accept Him as their Messiah would continue to stay with the Levitical ceremonies, practices, etc. And even after God had punished them in 70 AD, AND, more importantly, has made them “desolate” to their God for the past 2000 years, they still have not accepted Him. 
 

And finally, this brings us to the “true” end times when God will declare the time of  Gentiles is over. He will then remove the blindness from their eyes and they will  the One they had pierced. This is necessary BEFORE the Messiah can return. The final obligation of His people has yet to be fulfilled: They must complete the final 3.5 years of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle. For 3.5 years, His people  will go out into the world preaching  Word and the Testimony of Jesus, the end will come. 
 

So, IF, and I do believe there will still be both Jews and Gentiles that will continue to reject Jesus at this end time, they will no doubt still contend another Temple is needed. 
 

[dad2]

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Yes, there is no need for another Temple, Sanctuary, Levitical ceremonies, animal sacrifices or offerings. They were a type and shadow of the coming Messiah. And He fulfilled them all during His  3.5 year ministry. Their mission within His plan of salvation was completed. 
 

In chapter 2, the Stone (Messiah) would strike the feet of the image. This is the feet of the 4th iron kingdom of Rome. Rome would conquer the known world and would make all nations subservient to their commands. Israel, the symbolic clay within the feet would be separated from the iron (the iron and the clay would be broken apart or into pieces in a non- military manner.

The iron and clay in the feet are kingdoms just as the rest of the statue. When Jesus the rock returns to smash it at the feet, it is a violent overthrow of the kingdoms of the world. Not some non military attack on Israel!

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It was the Jews belief the Messiah would accomplish this by defeating Rome in a military like manner, but God was concerned with the spiritual battle and would break His people out from the iron kingdom in this manner).

The only time the kingdoms of the world (that the statue represented) will be dashed to pieces by Jesus is in the end. Anyone thinking ancient Rome fulfilled that was out to lunch.

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Meaning, there is absolutely nothing written in the NT where Paul, John, Matthew or ANY of His followers that spoke of another Temple, Sanctuary, animal sacrifices, or offerings AFTER the cross. They understood that Jesus had done away with the need for them. 

Whether there will be a full temple or not doesn't matter. There will be animals sacrifices and a holy place though.

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However, those of His people that refused to accept Him as their Messiah would continue to stay with the Levitical ceremonies, practices, etc. And even after God had punished them in 70 AD, AND, more importantly, has made them “desolate” to their God for the past 2000 years, they still have not accepted Him. 

Not sure why you brought up the word desolate. Hopefully not to try and relate to the abomination that makes desolate.

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And finally, this brings us to the “true” end times when God will declare the time of  Gentiles is over. He will then remove the blindness from their eyes and they will  the One they had pierced. This is necessary BEFORE the Messiah can return. The final obligation of His people has yet to be fulfilled: They must complete the final 3.5 years of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle. For 3.5 years, His people  will go out into the world preaching  Word and the Testimony of Jesus, the end will come. 
 

So, IF, and I do believe there will still be both Jews and Gentiles that will continue to reject Jesus at this end time, they will no doubt still contend another Temple is needed. 

Unbelieving Jews, naturally, would love to have a temple if they could get away with it.