Before the "pre, mid post," what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

[BlindSeeker]

On 4/23/2024 at 7:56 AM, Montana Marv said:

The 70th Week of Daniel.  3 1/2 years of rule under the A/C.  Then 3 1/2 years of rule under the Dragon.  Israel lives in peace for the first 3 1/2 years.  Pursued by the Dragon for the last 3 1/2 years.  Lessor tribulation for the world then and Greater tribulation for the world.  Unleashing of the S, T, and B judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Verses for the seven year trib... not what you believe it will be. 

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Is there another witnessing verse tot the seven years tribulation? Without it, all you done is submitted an opinion.

My mistake: I misinterpreted the thread's title and assumed it was a question for clarification. Exegesis is the critical interpretation (opinion) of a religious text, while hermeneutics is the method of my interpretation (opinion). Any subject discussed or scriptural evidence submitted is subject to opposing opinions and disagreement.

The context of Daniel chapter nine is seventy weeks of years broken down and explained.

I am a simpleton, so to be simple:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

He (man of sin, lawless one, Antichrist) and the verse above is where we derive a seven-year Tribulation. Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are the parallel passages (mid-tribulation). The seven-year Tribulation is also called “the Day of the Lord” in other prophetic passages that are too numerous to document.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

The time of Jacob's trouble (3.5 years), mentioned in Jeremiah 30:7, refers to a period of great distress for Judah and Israel but with the promise of salvation. This time is believed to be the Tribulation, a period of unparalleled suffering before Christ's return. The purpose is to bring Israel back to the Lord and fulfill His promises.

Trying to describe the final week without mentioning the preceding 69 weeks, the present gap between the 69^th and 70th week (church age—age of Grace), and the time of Jacob’s trouble would not mean much.

My view of Daniel’s 70th-week sides with the premillennialist literal view, another meaningless opinion.

Amillennialists have certain common features in their interpretation of Daniel 9:24–27. These include (a) the beginning of the seventy weeks was in 536 b.c. in the time of Cyrus, not (as premillennialists say) in 445 b.c. under Artaxerxes. This has the effect of allowing the seventy-sevens to be imprecise in duration. (b) The seventieth week is the entire Church Age, not a future seven-year period of Tribulation.

These characteristic interpretations of amillennialism stem from not consistently practicing literal interpretation.^[1]

 

 

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^[1] Ryrie, Charles Caldwell. Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth. Moody Press, 1999, p. 519.

[BlindSeeker]

13 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Amillennialists have certain common features in their interpretation of Daniel 9:24–27. These include (a) the beginning of the seventy weeks was in 536 b.c. in the time of Cyrus, not (as premillennialists say) in 445 b.c. under Artaxerxes. This has the effect of allowing the seventy-sevens to be imprecise in duration. (b) The seventieth week is the entire Church Age, not a future seven-year period of Tribulation....

 

When Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand," what prophetic time was He referencing in scripture?

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

 

When Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand," what prophetic time was He referencing in scripture?

In my opinion: First, let's not confuse the Kingdom of Heaven with the Kingdom of God; I do not think they are synonymous. Without side-tracking to detail them, Matthew differentiates them by the Kingdom of Heaven 30 times and the Kingdom of God 5 times. Your question pertained to the Kingdom of God:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15) [emphasis added]

Your allusion omitted the keyword, answering the question, the gospel. The Kingdom of God, as portrayed in the synoptic Gospel of Mark 1:15, highlights how Jesus is seen as the Messiah King who has come to restore God's intention for humanity and creation. The Kingdom of God is depicted as the antidote to the fall, bringing salvation and wholeness to the world. Jesus is presented as the inaugurator of this new kingdom, with his ministry focused on calling people to repent and believe in the good news.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

What prophetic time in scripture is it? All the OT promises of the coming Messiah have arrived. "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

Out with the old, and in with the new: The last OT prophet John the Baptist and the Law are being replaced by Grace and the Lord's sacrificial death for our justification, sanctification, and atonement. It was offered to the Jews first, and as a nation, they rejected their Messiah and unjustly murdered Him. Fortunately for us Gentiles, we were grafted into the vine.

On Dominica Palmarum, Jesus made His triumphal entry to Jerusalem atop of an ass. To present Himself as the Jews Messiah, AND to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven. Because of that rejection, the Kingdom of Heaven has been postponed for two millennia now. Thus:

 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)

This now takes place starting at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation, concluding with the second advent of our Lord at the close of the Tribulation.

Right or wrong, I hope my explanation clarifies my thoughts. Quid pro quo: What are your thoughts, and where do we differ?

[BlindSeeker]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:49 AM, Dennis1209 said:

In my opinion: First, let's not confuse the Kingdom of Heaven with the Kingdom of God; I do not think they are synonymous. Without side-tracking to detail them, Matthew differentiates them by the Kingdom of Heaven 30 times and the Kingdom of God 5 times. Your question pertained to the Kingdom of God:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15) [emphasis added]

Your allusion omitted the keyword, answering the question, the gospel. The Kingdom of God, as portrayed in the synoptic Gospel of Mark 1:15, highlights how Jesus is seen as the Messiah King who has come to restore God's intention for humanity and creation. The Kingdom of God is depicted as the antidote to the fall, bringing salvation and wholeness to the world. Jesus is presented as the inaugurator of this new kingdom, with his ministry focused on calling people to repent and believe in the good news.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

What prophetic time in scripture is it? All the OT promises of the coming Messiah have arrived. "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

Out with the old, and in with the new: The last OT prophet John the Baptist and the Law are being replaced by Grace and the Lord's sacrificial death for our justification, sanctification, and atonement. It was offered to the Jews first, and as a nation, they rejected their Messiah and unjustly murdered Him. Fortunately for us Gentiles, we were grafted into the vine.

On Dominica Palmarum, Jesus made His triumphal entry to Jerusalem atop of an ass. To present Himself as the Jews Messiah, AND to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven. Because of that rejection, the Kingdom of Heaven has been postponed for two millennia now. Thus:

 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)

This now takes place starting at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation, concluding with the second advent of our Lord at the close of the Tribulation.

Right or wrong, I hope my explanation clarifies my thoughts. Quid pro quo: What are your thoughts, and where do we differ?

Sorry for the delayed replies, I am dealing with medical issues and multiple doctor appointments...

So, was the "fulfilled time" part of the 70 weeks/ 490 years, IF so, where in the timeline?

Edited 9 hours ago by BlindSeeker
grammar correction

[Revelation Man]

On 4/21/2024 at 2:26 PM, BlindSeeker said:

Simple, what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

This is too easy...............

So, you guys who bring up this red herring actually think you have a great point, but you don't. 

Now lets destroy this red herring non point, which is all it is, with one simple verse.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, what part of this do people not understand, Jesus says specifically that only in him will we have peace, in our hearts and spirit so to speak. but in THIS EVIL WORLD.........We will have CONTINUAL TRIBULATIONS or TROUBLES !!

So, when we read about Smyrna in Rev. 2:10 and it says for 10 days (10 = COMPLETION) you will have tribulation, which means for the Complete Church Age (then we are Raptured). But alas, ALL TIME is Tribulation and that will indeed include the 70th week, IN FULL, what you guys do is conflate or confuse the first 3.5 years which by Jesus' own words is TRIBULATION,(see above) with the Greatest Ever Tribulation of 3.5 years at the end of the 70th week.

So, 3.5 years of TRIBULATION....................then the Middle of the week starts the Greatest Ever Trib...................Jesus returns

............Troubles......................................................MID POINT...................Great Troubles......................................2nd coming.

Knowing this please dont say the 70th week is not Full Tribulation again, if you do you will know thats just not factual

Edited 18 hours ago by Revelation Man

[AdHoc]

On 4/25/2024 at 1:59 AM, BlindSeeker said:

Is there another witnessing verse tot the seven years tribulation? Without it, all you done have is submitted an opinion.

 

On 5/1/2024 at 3:42 AM, BlindSeeker said:

Sorry for the delayed replies, I am dealing with medical issues and multiple doctor appointments...

So, was the "fulfilled time" part of the 70 weeks/ 490 years, is so, where in the timeline?

They say that a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer to. And you've given some of us a right runabout. The question cannot be answered for there are no verses for a 7-year Great Tribulation. But you must be applauded for your obfuscation. You added the rapture into the equation. The rapture is to move people from one point to another and has no bearing on the start of the Great Tribulation. I don't mean this as a criticism. You challenged the men and they now have to admit that they need to go back to the drawing board.

But, I think after a week you can bless us with the truth. But we'll be watching you because Jeremiah and Ezekiel have Israel scattered to the "four winds" and that is where God's "elect" are gathered from by angels in Matthew 24:31. And according to Ezekiel 37 they are gathered back to their Land after being resurrected. The Church on the other hand is gathered to the clouds. And all this is moot because the Lord consistently said that only the Father in heaven knew this date - much like no one knew the date of the beginning of the flood and Noah went in seven days before. Why seven days? Well, we don't know the answer but it shows that we cannot calculate.

But Israel is different. They have the prophets and one of their most revered, Daniel, predicted a seven year period, NOT OF TRIBULATION, but of rule by a Gentile king. It is only when this Gentile king claims deity and a place in the Holy of Holies that God's wrath. The time when this happens is not known because 2nd Thessalonians 2 says he must be "revealed" first. Then it says that something "hinders" which must be removed. Then only can he involve himself POLITICALLY by residency in Jerusalem and be supported by ten kings. The literal of Daniel 9:26-27 is that he "strengthens THE Covenant". The article implies that the Covenant is in place but weak. And surely, there is only one Covenant in history that has the daily oblation - that of Sinai.

Jews do not read the New Testament, but if a learned Jew was to read the New Testament, he would know that the Christ was predicted seven years after a Gentile king allowed the daily oblation again - and that needs a Temple and altar. It is only after three and a half years of reign that the Beast inserts himself in the Holy of Holies and God's wrath is released for the final three and one half years. So, as summary, the date of the first rapture cannot be calculated. The date of the "revealing" of the man of sin cannot be calculated. But once Israel are sacrificing the daily oblation, it will be three and a half years to the Beast entering the Holy Place. This sets off the Great Tribulation which is amply recorded as 1260 days, 42 moths and a time, time and half a time.

[BlindSeeker]

Sorry for the delayed response, and thanks for your patience. I hope to address a few posts tonight.

[BlindSeeker]

On 4/21/2024 at 4:20 PM, RdJ said:

In the middle of the week he goes sit in the temple. First 3,5 years is false peace and a revival for about 6 months, resulting in the uncountable multitude. After that he gets angry and christians get beheaded.

Source: Ken Peters' dream.

Thanks for the share, but Ken Peter's dream falls short of what I am looking for and lacks the weight of scripture.

[BlindSeeker]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:48 AM, RdJ said:

Daniel 9:26-27 

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Daniel 7:25 

Just for the record, I believe “the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” is Titus Caesar, Vespasian’s son who completed the siege on Jerusalem resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d.

The verse in Daniel 7:25 is written in Aramaic, and not Hebrew, for from Daniel 2:4 to the of chapter 7 is all written in Aramaic. This was possibly done so and written for Nebuchadnezzar, to whom God had given the dream of and image and also humbled with his seven years chastisement, for chapter 8 begins under the reign of his grandson Belshazzar.

 That said, and for what it worth, the phrase in 7:25, “And he… shall wear out <bel-aw'> the saints of the Most High” uses the word noted and so translated only once in scripture. It is stated in an interlinear that word <bel-aw'> corresponds to the Hebrew word #1086 (but used only in a mental sense) and means “to afflict:--i.e. wear out.” In Hebrew, the word <balah> means “to fail; by implication to wear out, or decay (causatively, consume, spend):--consume, enjoy long, become (make, wax) old, spend, waste.”  The implication is not so much as so many commentators interpret it, as great slaughter, but more of them and their gospel being reduced (seduced) to a state of being unprofitable.

I personally feel this is a verse in a chapter from which the Apostle Paul would have taught the saints in his day of how Rome was  going  to fall from its height of power into smaller fractions, and in doing so give way for the rise of the apostacy of the papacy who would leaven the gospel and in doing so render many professing Christ to become unprofitable to the furtherance of the Kingdom.

But... this is a departure from the main topic of what is the scriptural foundation of the seven-year tribulation theology….