Branch Discussion About Sin Entering Through Adam

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:11 PM, Charlie744 said:

Very nice! God knew Adam would sin and He designed a plan of  that would restore man back with Him in the garden.

Throughout the Scriptures He has constantly reminded us of the “do’s and don’ts,” but we continue to “play in the streets,” we continue to “play with matches.”

Every prophecy in the Scriptures has been fulfilled exactly as it was given… His Word is true… we are so close to the end! He has revealed all that we need to be saved. He has withheld nothing in His plan of salvation to us.

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Charlie744 In your first paragraph I understand that God knew that Eve will eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree and that Adam then would follow. 

Yes Adam ate from the forbidden fruit but he was not the one who was deceived by the Serpent. 

And his act was an act of disobedience. We are correct if we say that Adam disobeyed God, but why say something that God knew better and did not say that Adam sin but God said that Adam disobeyed. 

I apologize but I am not sure I completely understand the your question and the direction you might want to take this… but it certainly does give one something to consider!

So, I will just try and give you a few thoughts:

1) you are right in saying that Eve sinned first and ate the apple after listening to the serpent,

2) and then Adam followed her,

3) Certainly God gave them the ability to “choose,” but He also knew before the foundation of the world what they would choose,

4) So, why did Eve make the first sin and not Adam?

Well, I certainly do not know but here are a few thoughts:

    a) Adam, not Eve, was created by God where He breathed His Holy Spirit into,

    b) Adam would disobey God and God would HAVE TO take back HIS HOLY SPIRIT that was breathed into Him since God (His Holy Spirit) can not be in the presence of sin,

    c) God would tell Adam he would surely die and was removed from God’s presence,

     d) Fast forward some 4000 years and Jesus would be borne also without sin,

      e) Jesus, would also receive His Holy Spirit on the first day of the 70th week of the prophecy. He would be anointed by His Father when He was baptized by John in the Jordan (Jesus would be heard saying, “into your hands I commit my Holy Spirit”).

       f) Jesus never disobeyed God but would take on ALL of our sin. He would also have to “return the Holy Spirit” given to Him by His Father on the day of His baptism. Again, when He took on our sin, the Holy Spirit within Him could not be in the presence of sin. 
 

      e) Perhaps Eve symbolizes the Jews who God took out of mankind as a chosen people. They would sin and Jesus come from His people, but He, unlike Adam, would not sin when tempted by the devil. 

      f) God would restore His Holy Spirit back into Jesus in the 3rd day and would soon return to His Father. Adam (mankind) will also be able to return to God but only by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus. 
 

Just some thoughts generated by your question.. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2024 by Charlie744

[Michael37]

21 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I only said that Adam disobeyed God because this is what God said who never said the word "Sin" to neither Adam or Eve. 

Hi @Your closest friendnt

The discussion branched out from end times to the question of Adam's sin, hence the creation of this new thread.

Paul has it as follows:

Rom 5:12-14  Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:  (13)  for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  (14)  But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Hi @Your closest friendnt

The discussion branched out from end times to the question od Adam's sin, hence the creation of this new thread.

Paul has it as follows:

Rom 5:12-14  Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:  (13)  for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  (14)  But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;

Thanks for directing me to this topic. 
 

Now, is there an issue you guys are discussing about sin ?

Thanks!

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Charlie744

Now I am posting from the new thread so please we can go on in our discussion. 

Okay, I am here. What exactly is the issue?

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I find it difficult to agree with his verse 14. Wanting to understand what Paul wants to say in verse 14 and if we can justify it by reading the relevant scripture Paul took into consideration or if he missed out some Scriptures he should have considered first that lead us to a different understanding. What do you think? 

Would you be so kind as to give me / unpack what your you think Paul is saying and what you are having a problem with? Sorry. 

[Michael37]

1 minute ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Charlie744

Paul saying that death reigned upon all people till Moses is definitely an incorrect statement. 

That's a serious accusation, and seriously false. People, including innocent infants, all died during the period from Adam's sin to Moses receiving the Law, so death was not due to any breaking of the Law during that time, but due to the penalty for Adam's sin.

[Charlie744]

21 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Charlie744

Paul saying that death reigned upon all people till Moses is definitely an incorrect statement. 

Why is this incorrect? Death began after Adam sinned in the garden…

[Michael37]

12 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

At this time there is the need to make sure what we mean to say with the words we used. 

I can say that you need to read my post again because you have misconstrued what I post. Surely I  know that all the people have experience physical death (but Enoch that we know at that time in the burning bush) and they continue to experience physical death till today and Moses knew that and God knew that when he spoke to Moses at the burning bush and their after and everyone knew that even Jesus Christ in Mathew 22:32. 

But you are responding like we do not know that. That Moses did not know that. If it was about physical death Paul is talking about he will never say that the physical death stopped with Moses because he knows that it did not.

And we need to make the distinction between the Abraham and his chosen children and the Gentiles and his other children. 

Please can reconsider what your comment was about my posting. I have proven that Paul was not speaking about physical death and neither was I or the Lord God at the burning bush and not Jesus in Mathew and Moses did not understand that God at the burning bush was talking about physical death.

Paul statement in Romans 5:14 is not in agreement the scriptures at hand in the totality of Scripture and definetly is not in line to what the Jewish Rabis were teaching or the prophetic about life after death. Jesus said about Abraham and his chosen children that they were the children of God and were alive to him after their death as in Abraham and his Bossom and at death they were separated from the rest of the world who were dead to God and under the God of the dead. 

 

Death reigned as a monarch reigns from the moment Adam sinned to the moment Moses received the Law, and is still reigning.

Paul IS speaking about physical death. There is no need to conflate the context by bringing spiritual death into the frame.

This is from the Contemporary English Version, which I hope will clarify things for you.

Rom 5:12-21  

(12) Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.  (13)  Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law.  

(14)  Yet death still had power over all who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. This happened, though not everyone disobeyed a direct command from God, as Adam did. In some ways Adam is like Christ who came later.  (15)  But the gift that God was kind enough to give was very different from Adam's sin. That one sin brought death to many others. Yet in an even greater way, Jesus Christ alone brought God's gift of kindness to many people.  

(16)  There is a lot of difference between Adam's sin and God's gift. That one sin led to punishment. But God's gift made it possible for us to be acceptable to him, even though we have sinned many times.  (17)  Death ruled like a king because Adam had sinned. But that cannot compare with what Jesus Christ has done. God has been so kind to us, and he has accepted us because of Jesus. And so we will live and rule like kings.  

(18)  Everyone was going to be punished because Adam sinned. But because of the good thing that Christ has done, God accepts us and gives us the gift of life.  (19)  Adam disobeyed God and caused many others to be sinners. But Jesus obeyed him and will make many people acceptable to God.  

(20)  The Law came, so that the full power of sin could be seen. Yet where sin was powerful, God's kindness was even more powerful.  (21)  Sin ruled by means of death. But God's kindness now rules, and God has accepted us because of Jesus Christ our Lord. This means that we will have eternal life.

[Charlie744]

12 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You are right remember what was the words of God that if you eat from the fruit of the tree you will surely die. Those last words need to be clarity by the events that followed. 

I have to apologize again… I am trying to understand what you are saying … but I am not yet able.

I don’t know if these comments are / will speak to your concern, but here goes:

1) Before Adam there was no sin. Yes, there was the tree of good and evil but at that time there was no sin. There was the possibility or potential for sin but only as a result of an act by Adam or Eve. 
 

2) So, Adam was borne / created WITHOUT sin .. not born in sin. Only after he disobeyed  God did “sin appear.” He was the only person born without sin.

 3) However, after Adam and Eve sinned, every person born was born in sin, and the wages of sin is death. 

  4) Adam was the ONLY person that could be identified as a “living soul.” God took the dust of the ground and breathed HIS HOLY SPIRIT into him. He became a “living soul.” With NO sin found in him. 
 

    5) It was only after he sinned did God have to take back (HIS HOLY SPIRIT back from Adam. Adam did not have his own “spirit” within him (yes, he had a conscience, an awareness, a working mind, but he did not possess a “spirit.” That was given to him by God at his creation. 
 

   6) So everyone born after Adam was a “human being,” not a “human soul.” The sin of Adam was therefore imputed into every person that would be born. 
 

   7) I am not sure this addresses your thoughts but the sin of Adam is different than any other person that would come upon the earth. The “sin” is no different than what you or I would commit, but because he was born without sin, it is / was different. 
 

Hope this helps and I look at to your response.