Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19 is not the second coming

[Diaste]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

Revelation 12 gives us a pretty good overview of the tribulation conflict.

Satan and his followers are kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth:

"Woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.... 12:12

"And when the dragon saw that he was thrown to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.... (Israel) 12:13

"The dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Christ".... (both Jews, who keep the commandments, and Christians, who hold to the testimony of Christ).... 12:17

So we see that Satan's great wrath will be geared towards the nation of Israel first and then the Church, Christians.

God lets Satan have his way against Jews and Christians. Satan is not concerned with other earth dwellers and other religions. He is after the cream of the crop, first and foremost.  If he can annihilate the Jews and the Christians, then the earth will be his. But God always has a remnant.

Why does God allow this? To weed out true believers from fake believers. That's why we see martyrs at the 5th seal, and many more to come. 

Sure. But that still doesn't show a 2nd and 3rd appearance of Jesus.

On 5/3/2024 at 8:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

I agree that God's wrath is the trumpet and bowl judgments. God will not share His glory with another, especially Satan. That's why Isaiah writes "The Lord alone will be exalted in that day"... Isa 2:11 ....... The trumpet and bowl judgments are the "Day of the Lord"

I do not. Only bowls are wrath as they are the ones called wrath. The Trumps are not wrath and occur before the midpoint, in some cases, per Joel:

In Joel 1 we are told by prophecy:

9Grain and drink offerings have been cut off

from the house of the LORD;

the priests are in mourning,

those who minister before the LORD.

This is the midpoint when the A of D has occurred. Then Joel 1 tells us this:

10The field is ruined; the land mourns. For the grain is destroyed,

the new wine is dried up, and the oil fails. Be dismayed, O farmers,

wail, O vinedressers,  over the wheat and barley,

because the harvest of the field has perished.

So at the time of the A of D, the grain is destroyed and the harvest is no more. This is what the 1st Trump does:

"7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."

Grain is grass. No harvest, the grain destroyed. At the time of the midpoint, before tribulation and well before God's wrath.

Joel 1 also says:

The grapevine is dried up,

and the fig tree is withered;

the pomegranate, palm, and apple—

all the trees of the orchard—are withered.

Why are they withered and not burned? Lack of fresh water, perhaps? The 3rd Trump:

"Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters."

That's probably not too good for vines and orchards. It looks to me like Trumps are sounding in the first half of the week before the A of D, or at the time of the A of D and of course, well before God's wrath falls. 

I would say the Trumps are increasing the pressure on people by creating a lack of daily needs, hoping to get their attention that they turn turn to God and repent and beg forgiveness, but they are not wrath.

 

On 5/3/2024 at 8:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

Satan has his day....the tribulation............... God has His day....The Day of the Lord"

The seals are Satan's wrath. 

I understand. I don't care for the terminology. It's all God's doing within the overall plan. Satan can do nothing unless permitted, he's a tool God uses. Small distinction perhaps, but I think an important one.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:10 PM, Revelation Man said:

If the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, and they do, then the 7 Trumps IN and OF THEMSELVES contain the full Wrath of God.

Using that same logic.....

Since the 7 vials emit from the 7th trumpet.... and.... The 7 trumpets emit from the 7th seal..... then the 7 seals IN and OF THEMSELVES contain the full Wrath of God.

This is, after all, your logic....Right?

[JoeCanada]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:04 PM, Revelation Man said:

Verses 7-8 are not really a part of verses 4-13, they are meant to show WHY the END IS NOT YET in vs. 6, Jesus demonstrates why the end can not be the 70 AD events (wars & rumors of wars). It is not meant to be taken as those verses are a part of the END TIMES, they are not, every verse in 4-13 is specifically about the Disciples lives, period.

Verses 4-8 are talking about the 'birth pangs'..... like Jesus said in verse 8 of  Matt 24.

What are these 'birth pangs'?

I can't see them as being equated with the disciples lives and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Sure, there may have been a 'false Christ'. 

But did they hear of 'wars and rumors of wars'?.... Maybe, but in the singular 'war' and 'rumor'.

Did they see or hear of 'nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom' rising?

Did they experience 'famines (plural) and earthquakes (plural)?

I would say that for the most part, the answer is NO. 

So what was Jesus referring to?

Are they the times just before the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age?

 

Probably and most likely.

Maybe .... Jesus was referring to the Church which was about to be born. The Church would then be like a baby, toddler, teenager, young adult, mature adult.... it would develop and mature..... and then go thru the birth pangs.... just before the return of the Messiah. 

 

[JoeCanada]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure. But that still doesn't show a 2nd and 3rd appearance of Jesus.

Second 'appearance of Jesus'..... Rev 6:16.... The earth dwellers don't just imagine Jesus is ready to bring wrath upon them, they obviously see Him in the heaven when the sky is split apart.... 

Third 'appearance of Jesus' .... "Who is this who comes from Edom"...Isa 63:1... Jesus marching toward Jerusalem from Edom, gathering His people along the way who were dispersed when told to flee at the AofD

Fourth 'appearance of Jesus'.... "because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign".... Rev 11:17.... At the inauguration of Jesus at the 7th trumpet, Jesus has been given the kingdom of the earth and is reigning in Israel..... also Ezek 39:7

Fifth 'appearance of Jesus' .... "And I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse...' ...Rev 19:11>....Jesus leads the armies of heaven into battle.

There could be another one as well. In Rev 14:14, Jesus again on a cloud, reaping the earth with a sickle..... and another angel also with a sickle reaping the clusters from the vine of the earth for the winepress of the wrath of God. This one, if the earth dwellers actually see Him, would come between the second and third 'appearance of Jesus'. (Jesus does not use a sickle when He/the angels gather His elect at the 6th seal)

So in essence, there could be 6 appearances of Jesus. 

The 'second coming' is a multi-faceted event.... not just a one time 'appearance.'

Like I have said before....

It will be the GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Using that same logic.....

Since the 7 vials emit from the 7th trumpet.... and.... The 7 trumpets emit from the 7th seal..... then the 7 seals IN and OF THEMSELVES contain the full Wrath of God.

This is, after all, your logic....Right?

Well that would be el correcto if the Seals were Wrath they are not. The Seals are Prophetic Utterances by Jesus as he opens the Scroll that has the Wrath Sealed up, he announces what is soon to come when that 7th Lock (Seal) is taken off. Why is it people can not grasp what a Signet Seals intention was?

So, a King is in a war, he sends a message to the frontline general, inly he has that particular signet ring seal which is imprinted on a Wax Seal. So, if the message to his general had been read those three seals (kings used 3 seals) would have had to of been broken, the general would have known and would have killed the messengers and not followed through on his orders, if given any, he would have warned the king also. But if all three seals were on the message or letter, then if he opens one wax seal, there are still two seals keeping the contents from being read, so only when the other two seals are off can the message be read. Now if the general could see into the future he might say, we will be moving East tomorrow at noon and will cross the river on two days. That's what Jesus was doing as he open ed each seals, foretelling future events over a coming 42 month time period.

Seals 1-5 are all the coming Anti-Christs actions as he rules as the Beast for 42 months. He conquers by peace, brings war, which bring famine, which brings sickness & death, AND he also kills the Gentiles who convert to Christ. 

Seal #6 is God's Wrath which covers the exact same 42 months. Part of God's Wrath is giving mankind the king their hearts so desired. This all starts at the Middle of the week 1260 events. But its Prophetic in nature. (See why below)

The Jews repent at the 1335 (Two-witnesses) event, which happens 75 days before the 1260. Each number is that many days away from the 2nd Advent of Jesus on this earth. So, the 1/3 Jews repent (5 million or so, not 144,000 which is a CODE in Rev. 7) and they must be protected by God who orders the JUDGEMTS HELD UP, so the Trees, Earth, and Sea can not be HURT until they are Sealed and Protected. Then in Rev. 8 we see the 7th Seal opened, and the Wrath of God starts, that is why there is SILENCE in  heaven, its a SOMBER MOMENT unto God and the angels. So, the Seals open the Scroll my friend, that's it. Why is it you can accept Joel 2:31 as Prophecy but not the Seals being opened? Bit speak about the Sun & Moon being darkened, but it only happens via the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments because it is an Asteroid that brings it to pass. 

How can  you miss the point I made about the Seals being Prophetic in nature?

[JoeCanada]

30 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

That's what Jesus was doing as he open ed each seals, foretelling future events over a coming 42 month time period.

 

31 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

How can  you miss the point I made about the Seals being Prophetic in nature?

Because I see the first 6 seals as 'judgments' against the Jews and Christians predominately.

When the 7th seal is opened it begins the Day of the Lord, God's Wrath. 

Just because you make a point doesn't make that point legit.

The trumpets and vials are God's Wrath.

The seals are Satan's wrath.

God does not share the stage with Satan. God alone will be glorified in that day.

 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Verses 4-8 are talking about the 'birth pangs'..... like Jesus said in verse 8 of  Matt 24.

No, verses 7 & 8 are demonstrating why 70 AD can not be the return of Jesus and vs. 14 tells the Disciples how than can know 100% that the 70 AD wars will not be Jesus  in spite of the Pharisees fulfilling John 5:43 (see below) by putting forth fake christs to try to save Jerusalem from the Roman fourth beast.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye(Pharisees) will receive. 

Matt. 24 was a MUST NEEDS survival guide for the Disciples and early church. If the Disciples went rushing back thinking Jesus was come again, then they would have all been killed and the early Church would have followed them. So, Jesus had to get it this into their head that they would 1.) never see his return and 2.) that they would all be killed for his names sake, save John. 3.) and he must tell them what all had to happen (vs. 14) before the rapture could take place. Its like Jesus says, the baby is way on down the road, you must go through Birth Pangs first.

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

What are these 'birth pangs'?

I can't see them as being equated with the disciples lives and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Sure, there may have been a 'false Christ'. 

But did they hear of 'wars and rumors of wars'?.... Maybe, but in the singular 'war' and 'rumor'.

That is the whole point brother, I will demonstrate at the bottom. The Disciples were only going to hear of the Wars & Rumors of wars via the 70 AD events that lasted from circa 66-70 AD. So, when Jesus tells them the end (70th week when Jesus shows up) is not yet, he then demonstrates why the 70 AD events CAN NOT be the 70th week which will bring the Messiah and gives a long list of things that lead up to those 70th week events, buy why? He had to key them into the fact that the 70 AD events was not his returning point, so that they would stay away, and not bring the Church back. So, verses 7-8 are just a demonstration unto  the Disciples why he says in vs. 6 the END IS NOT YET.......He simply shows why in verses 7 & 8 !!

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Did they see or hear of 'nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom' rising?

Did they experience 'famines (plural) and earthquakes (plural)?

I would say that for the most part, the answer is NO. 

So what was Jesus referring to?

Are they the times just before the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age?

 

Probably and most likely.

Maybe .... Jesus was referring to the Church which was about to be born. The Church would then be like a baby, toddler, teenager, young adult, mature adult.... it would develop and mature..... and then go thru the birth pangs.... just before the return of the Messiah. 

That is true, that is the point, Jesus had to get them to grasp that the 70 AD events were not the END (70th week events) time events seen in Zech. 14:1. So, verses 7-8 only demonstrates why vs. 6 is not about the end times. Overall, it has nothing to do with Jesus' message unto his disciples and how to guide the church where they would not get quashed out of existence via wrong moves by the disciples.

Lets go over Matthew 24:1-14 verse by verse

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?(Temple) verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down(in 70 AD).

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? (Temples Destruction) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus answers first about THESE THINGS or the Temples Destruction

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(Disciples). 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ(fulfills John 5:443 the Pharisees put forth messiah types); and shall deceive many.

6 And ye(Disciples) shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(the 70 AD events and wars): see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (So, this WAS Jesus' major message here. He needed to let his Disciples know that the 70 AD events were not him returning to set up the Kingdom Age which all Jews looked towards. He told them the temple will be destroyed [in 70 AD] but those saying they are the messiah are false christs, do not buy into it, THEN.......in verses 7-8 he makes it very, very, very clear why the 70 AD events can not be his return to set up the Kingdom Age, just after the 70th week, because THIS .........THIS .......THIS .........and THIS must all happen first.

Famines the Disciples would never see, Nation against Nation (ethos vs. ethos) and Kingdom against kingdom, and this was not even a POSSIBILTY with Rome ruling, there was no uprisings or wars inside their kingdom, they ruled and NO ONE ELSE dared arise against them or agaainst anyone else. So, the Orange Section below is Jesus demonstrating why the 70 AD events were not him coming to set up his Kingdom Age and why that was the case. The Disciples would never see these Birth Pangs of Earthquakes, Great Famines, or Great Pestilences that killed many people (like the Black Plagues and COVID 19). So, your observation is correct, they never see all this, which is why I am telling you Jesus' overall message to the Disciples here is not really about these Birth Pangs at all, he's simply saying if this were the End Time 70th Week Events you would first have to see THIS........THIS.........THIS........and THIS. So, it can not be me come again.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

Now Jesus goes right on telling the Disciples THEIR  FATES.....

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you(Disciples): and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake(Rome turned against the Christians because they refused to worship Cesar as God, amongst other things, the disciples were their leaders so they tried to make an example out of them).

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

{{{ Here, when Rome turned up the pressures, many who claimed to be of Christ turned rat to save themselves. The FALSE PROPHETS here are not Christian or Jews, its the Jupiter, Zeus, and Babylonian false god types, they were getting hurt by the Gospel which was converting their patrons at an alarming rate so they cried unto Rome, who mostly served Jupiter/Zeus. The love of many waxes cold probably is Jesus referring unto the blood sport of killing in the arenas. }}}

13 But he that shall endure unto the end[OF ONES LIFE], the same shall be saved.(Jesus just told them they would all be killed, now he warned them they must be faithful until the end of their lives (Faithful unto death).

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come(70th week).

{{{ So, in vs. 6 Jesus says THE END IS NOT YET.........at the 70 AD events....then he shows why its not even close because before the END (Baby) can come BIRTH PANGS must come, now in vs. 14 Jesus gives his Disciples a 100% understanding of why the END can not happen in 70AD because before that END can come, the Gospel must be preached unto the entire world, and the Disciples knew of India, China and the Scythians (modern day Russia) and they knew 100% that this would never happen in their lifetimes, so add ALL THREE THINGS TOGETHER, no one should miss Jesus' message here. 1.) The END is much later on, all these BIRTH PANGS must come before the end comes and Jesus sets up his Kingdom Age on this earth. 2.) You Disciples WILL all be KILLED 3.) Jesus is saying the END (70th week) where I set up my Kingdom Age at my 2nd Advent, can not happen until the Gospel has been preached unto the WHOLE WORLD. }}}

Now, step back and take a fresh look, verses 4-13 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the End Times, meanwhile we have preachers who actually insist this is about the 70th week events. It is not nor can it be. As a matter of fact its just the opposite. Only once we get to verses 15 and on are we in the 70th week events, SEE BELOW

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

Edited May 6 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Because I see the first 6 seals as 'judgments' against the Jews and Christians predominately.

When the 7th seal is opened it begins the Day of the Lord, God's Wrath. 

Just because you make a point doesn't make that point legit.

The trumpets and vials are God's Wrath.

The seals are Satan's wrath.

God does not share the stage with Satan. God alone will be glorified in that day.

Its my calling for 40 years, I only say I know something when I know it. Peoples problems seems to be they can not look afresh at anything because they do not want to have wasted time thinking in another way. I look at it all different, when God reproves me, I know His truths are going to come flooding in. 

Plus, God told us He would reveal ALL THINGS at the very end, so why are w 100 percent trusting men's ideas from BEFORE God's plan to reveal it all? 

Edited May 6 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

Second 'appearance of Jesus'..... Rev 6:16.... The earth dwellers don't just imagine Jesus is ready to bring wrath upon them, they obviously see Him in the heaven when the sky is split apart.... 

Sure. 

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

Third 'appearance of Jesus' .... "Who is this who comes from Edom"...Isa 63:1... Jesus marching toward Jerusalem from Edom, gathering His people along the way who were dispersed when told to flee at the AofD

This passage doesn't say anything about gathering anyone, in fact it depicts a force of one.

I have trodden the winepress alone,

and no one from the nations was with Me.

I trampled them in My anger

and trod them down in My fury;

their blood spattered My garments,

and all My clothes were stained.

4For the day of vengeance was in My heart,

and the year of My redemption had come.

5I looked, but there was no one to help;

I was appalled that no one assisted.

So My arm brought Me salvation,

and My own wrath upheld Me.

6I trampled the nations in My anger;

in My wrath I made them drunk

and poured out their blood on the ground.”

This isn't a recorded 'coming', 'appearance', 'return', or any other arrival. This is a picture of one aspect of what happens after the one and only arrival.

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

Fourth 'appearance of Jesus'.... "because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign".... Rev 11:17.... At the inauguration of Jesus at the 7th trumpet, Jesus has been given the kingdom of the earth and is reigning in Israel..... also Ezek 39:7

Again, just another aspect of what the reign of Jesus entail at the onset of that reign when He makes His return. In order for there to be multiple 'arrivals' that would suggest an arrival, then leaving, then another arrival and another leaving after that, and so on. We don't see that in scripture. One arrival, many aspects of that singular event. 

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

Fifth 'appearance of Jesus' .... "And I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse...' ...Rev 19:11>....Jesus leads the armies of heaven into battle.

I think you are meaning one thing but perhaps using a term that doesn't fit. 

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

There could be another one as well. In Rev 14:14, Jesus again on a cloud, reaping the earth with a sickle..... and another angel also with a sickle reaping the clusters from the vine of the earth for the winepress of the wrath of God. This one, if the earth dwellers actually see Him, would come between the second and third 'appearance of Jesus'. (Jesus does not use a sickle when He/the angels gather His elect at the 6th seal)

So in essence, there could be 6 appearances of Jesus. 

You know that's allegorical, yes? The sickle is the great anger which compels the action, the grapes are the enemy, the wine press represents where the enemy is crushed and the treading is the great war in the valley where the enemy is defeated. This is using poetic language to depict the battle and it's result in the valley of Jehoshaphat, at Armageddon.

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

The 'second coming' is a multi-faceted event.... not just a one time 'appearance.'

Yes, that's what I have been saying. Just what you said is the truth: An single event with many aspects. One event which is the initial cause of the sky splitting, the fear of the people of earth, the gathering up of the elect, then the prosecution of wrath, etc.

On 5/5/2024 at 6:53 PM, JoeCanada said:

Like I have said before....

It will be the GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH

 

[Montana Marv]

First of all when Jesus is yet in the sky He must first take care of business.  That being fighting the world armies at Armageddon, from the White Horse (Rev 20).  So before His descending to the Mount of Olives, the battle occurs. Once the battle is finished, the Mt of Olives follows.  The Question is; When does Christ the King dismount the White Horse and rule the nations.

In Christ

Montana Marv