Church attendance in decline

[Indentured Servant]

3 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, As I think just  bit on that, having application for today seems a good thing  to pursue when reading  the Bible.  The Bible is about my Lord and savior, his reveal,  which also includes how to act and react in a fallen creation today including issues of money finance in general and also  how to interact or react to leaders, rulers, kings, and nations.

So yes I can see politics and politicking  becoming part of a "sermon" or study.   I do believe it wise of a Christian  to know government(s). Seems my Lord did and still does. A natural outflow of that might well be a discussion of situations that most all face today that are political in nature.

What is  a tad over the line though is a command from a pulpit or leader to vote one way  or another using the pulpit as a position of authority  to encourage a congregation to adhere to a specific man or woman  of government over another, perhaps even more so than my Lord.

I find my Bible encourages even commands me to be obedient to government plus that all leaders are appointed by God.

But then that gets into that area that is Calvinistic like.

I hedge my bet there with the statement  that drives one here a bit nuts; declaring myself a "Freewill-Calvinist" in that I have  chosen to believe that God is sovereign over all matters and that He has foreknown and predestined  according to His purpose- as I understand Romans 8:28-30 to be sharing with me.

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.  For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

As to politicking I do think it can relate to a lesson  from the messages to the seven churches at Asia minor where some have done good But lost their first love. Doing good in of itself not being love of Christ Jesus necessarily.  Evil itself does good works, but is evil none the less.

There is a church I once attended, which seated 3,500 in its third auditorium, making their total seating in excess of 6000, (they owned nearly eight city blocks of the downtown district), hired a guy who has hidden the fact that he is a Calvinist... He has slowly removed the "doctrine" of the original church and has literally implemented the reassignment of doctrinal terminology to reflect his covert beliefs... The church is part of the statistic of "declining membership," so still relevant for this topic... The "decline" in membership was mostly due to the the majority of people being forced to change their doctrinal position and understanding of scripture. I submit this merely to say that "church" is political- it shouldn't be. That was my point earlier... People are convinced to follow a doctrine rather than being taught to pursue God. When doctrine becomes the primary focus of the pulpit, the people are being robbed of God in favor of philosophical interpretations of words.

I was in touch with a network of "expert bible counselors," who disregarded my inquiry and tried to force me to believe that the Holy Spirit is not currently active because He gave us the bible and THAT takes the place of the Spirit in teaching us. They were a (covert) Calvinist organization that supports the network of writers, teachers, and preachers of the Calvinist movement. 

This is an example of why people leave churches... The perception is that pastors are treated like politicians and are given the freedom to change the beliefs of congregants. (This is the reason a bunch of people left England and invaded an already occupied land and created "freedom of religion."

That is why I, too, am part of the statistic of membership decline... I am not welcome in churches, primarily because I am led by the Spirit, taught by the Spirit, and am Indentured ONLY to my Lord, and no doctrinal politicians.

I mean no offense, but while the doctrinal scrimmage continues, I'm instructing people to find God, Himself. I just don't have time to add the weight of doctrinal variety to the Lord's yoke. His yoke is meant to be easy, his burden light. The incessant need to submit to a moniker of one's beliefs is what creates division.

When I (used to) say that I'm a Christian, people want to know "what kind?" "What denomination?" "What is your doctrinal position on this or that?" "Are you a conservative?" "Do you support (our new savior) Trump?" "Are you pre-trib?" 

I don't have the time or tolerance for superficial labeling. (And yes, I've been ignored, judged, asked to leave, etc, merely for not "falling in line" with the majority.)

[RdJ]

2 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

There is a church I once attended, which seated 3,500 in its third auditorium, making their total seating in excess of 6000, (they owned nearly eight city blocks of the downtown district), hired a guy who has hidden the fact that he is a Calvinist... He has slowly removed the "doctrine" of the original church and has literally implemented the reassignment of doctrinal terminology to reflect his covert beliefs...

I went to a church here. Around 100 people I guess. Evangelical church. Evangelical here is just not reformed, a bit hipper music, not only an organ, but for the rest one believes this and the other that. They had different elders who preached. If they had a pastor he was not a look at me type, cause I went there a few months and didn't know if they had one. One guy spoke and he had been catholic, he said, but he sounded a bit reformed to me because he was worried about his brother if he could get saved and women were not allowed to preach there so I was not gonna put up a big mouth, so I was smart. I gave him a book from Lee Thomas, a man. How to pray for the lost. Here I have a present for you cause I'm worried about your brother. He was happy with it. They are lovely people but they have nothing for teens unfortunately.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

They are lovely people but they have nothing for teens unfortunately.

Gee I remember back when all one needed was parents,  two of them. 

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

Gee I remember back when all one needed was parents,  two of them. 

Yes their dad has given them a Bible study book and they know the basics, but after 18 years I hoped that they were finally allowed in the service for adults, although it was a bit boring, but better than nothing and they really wanted to go, but they wanted them in the kids group all the time to help watch the kids from the other people. Why do these adults only arrange food for themselves? They're like those annoying big goats when you want to feed the little ones.

I got saved as a teen in another city because of a good youth leader with a youth group. My dad was an atheist. What about other teens who are not saved? If the church is only for christian parents who want your teens to babysit their kids then bye we don't come anymore.

I said a few times to my ex who was always doing so much effort to give these adults Bible studies and preachings: Why don't you let them color an egg box or watch a movie and give the kids a good sermon? Cause it is always the other way around. They did that in Toronto on Sunday. Puppet player. Adults get enough to eat. Now it's for the kids.

Edited May 25, 2024 by RdJ

[RdJ]

Just looked again if maybe there's a good church I hadn't seen. I have looked so often. The biggest church here is pentecostal, originally from Australia, 400 people, very popular, lot of youth. I know a couple from the homegroup we used to have who go there. It's for the succesful and rich and they want tithes. Blegh. Move it. They have money enough. They don't get a cent from me and I don't want to hang out with such people. When my ex had that homegroup here, that was great, with former homeless and drugaddicts, one guy had a 250000 debt and we prayed and whoop it was gone and another guy 19000, had to go to prison, one day before that whoop debt gone. Kids liked it. But I don't pray anymore that he starts something else and he doesn't want to anymore either. Maybe some day he finds a good church somewhere and takes us there with the car. I'm at the point that if God wants me to go He will have to send an angel with a car or a private jet or something. A 10 meter walk is already too much effort.

[Neighbor]

Hi, What kind of car will be suitable?

God can fix it; and He does answer prayer,  in the affirmative, that is rightly asked of Him.

[Neighbor]

3 hours ago, RdJ said:

It's for the succesful and rich and they want tithes. Blegh. Move it. They have money enough. They don't get a cent from me and I don't want to hang out with such people.

Well I can identify with that personally; but....

 I have found that God wants me to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to Him what is his.

 I am not a tither myself,  simply doing as the Holy Spirit leads (Us-spouse and myself) when the spirit leads. Yet, I do know the real need  for a local body of Jesus to not be in debt that it cannot meet through regular corporate body giving too. For a church body in debt that it cannot meet is a poor testimony  of Yeshua, from the get go.

I  have not left a church body because of financial dealings; however I have put my own job on the line by challenging the budget of one, doing so publicly at a congregation annual financial meeting while an employee of the church. Boy were the elders ticked! They felt a little better when they later realized I was strongly suggesting that the budget plan did not meet the real needs as I saw them to be.

I lasted several years after that event as an employee, and the church has continued to flourish as God has provided for it's congregation.

Now I am so old I am just happy when the body, my physical body, allows me to attend  live worship services wherever I am without my aching body having to get up and move around. 

Hey! Maybe I need go Pentecostal and just jump up every now and again eh?  

Seriously, may God bless your family with a grand corporate church body to be part of soon.

 

[RdJ]

6 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Well I can identify with that personally; but....

 I have found that God wants me to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to Him what is his.

 I am not a tither myself,  simply doing as the Holy Spirit leads (Us-spouse and myself) when the spirit leads. Yet, I do know the real need  for a local body of Jesus to not be in debt that it cannot meet through regular corporate body giving too. For a church body in debt that it cannot meet is a poor testimony  of Yeshua, from the get go.

I  have not left a church body because of financial dealings; however I have put my own job on the line by challenging the budget of one, doing so publicly at a congregation annual financial meeting while an employee of the church. Boy were the elders ticked! They felt a little better when they later realized I was strongly suggesting that the budget plan did not meet the real needs as I saw them to be.

I lasted several years after that event as an employee, and the church has continued to flourish as God has provided for it's congregation.

Now I am so old I am just happy when the body, my physical body, allows me to attend  live worship services wherever I am without my aching body having to get up and move around. 

Hey! Maybe I need go Pentecostal and just jump up every now and again eh?  

Seriously, may God bless your family with a grand corporate church body to be part of soon.

 

My ex was a pastor and I had a normal job, so we lived mainly from my income, which was no problem and I thought we were doing something good for God, but after 12 years we got a kid and then it got irritating that he served these rich people for free. I wanted to work less and take care of my baby. You get these other mothers. Oh I have chosen to be a housewife. I have chosen to work less. How nice when you have a man with money. Yeah we don't have that and how nice to rub it in my face lol. That couple that goes to that church would buy themselves a new kitchen while my ex borrowed my bike to go to the food bank and he was their pastor. We had just listened too much to the nonsense from Benny Hinn and such. If God calls He will provide. Sure. We had a woman who lived in a landhouse with 20 rooms. She was unbelievably rich only because her man who had died had been rich. She didnt even work. And she wanted to treat my ex like a slave to come serve her a week with prayer and counselling for free. He didnt do it. Former homeless could get that for free plus a hotel for a weekend. Not the stingy rich. Looking back I wonder if he should have started that church. I think not. He said to our son who asked him if he would start one again: No. You can't just go start a church.

We only had debts when we stopped that church. Took years to pay it back. So now he can get money from me because nobody else cares, but no way I'm giving money to some rich church. I agree that it's necessary to not be in debt and if they're not too into money it's fine. This one sounds quite prosperity gospel though.

[Neighbor]

Hi, 

Benny Hinn , oh my! My, my, my. I'll raise you a Robert Schuller. Remember the pot limit is one Joyce Myers per raise.

 But though I sat at the table of one I said no no thanks, I do not want to buy  the last two crystal glass windows left before they are gone, even though they are only $100,000 US each. Amazing presentation though!

They told me outright that they were nearly full at their present facility and that  they could not take me as a member unless I had money for it takes major amounts of money  to run the church. Now do we want to go on the tour or not -up the fourteen story tower to  see the top floor wedding chapel? Was their next question.

The archdiocese of Orange County California USA now owns all that property. Bob and son of Bob having had issues managed to belly up themselves in spite of the eager prosperity seekers. 

But!  But, but, but, God uses even that which may be intended for evil to the good of those that believe on my Lord and savior Yeshua.  

The very day that I was turned about by the Holy Spirit through an angel appearing as a man  of authority  whose voice ran  is one I knew, He also used an afternoon tv preacher's terribly convoluted gospel presentation for my own ears to hear.

I said in response to it all- "if that is true I want it1" and I was born again, in a twinkling  of an eye. I was changed from atheist to  born again, a Christian.

Is life still hard? Can be. Of course it is, but is takin the lumps of life in a fallen creation tolerable  because I am born again? Yes it is more than tolerable, it is joy! For I can count even the Robert Schuller's of my life as joy the joy of my own sojourn, all reminders of the awesome power of God to use even that which is at it's very core evil to do good for those that believe on Jesus as Lord.

TW watch the movie "Brother White: again last night. So funny yet so  ideally real where one striving in a monster prosperty situation to be a pastor and ending up in a humble ghetto gathering in need of a real pastor to share the gospel and to live it.

It is one of my top favorites, right behind War Room, and my all time favorite Driving Miss Daisy.

May God lead you and yours to comfort in worship at a congregation of believers, no matter how big  nor how very small it may be. May the Spirit of God be amongst that gathering in the name of our Lord Yeshua. Amen!

[PraiseHim1004]

On 5/24/2024 at 6:48 AM, Neighbor said:

While I do that nearly all the time, it is indeed not the same as being present with the local body in corporate worship with the Holy Spirit present. It does not present opportunity to share prayer either, nor have real fellowship.

Often reviewing the "sermon" on Tuesdays when Sunday's get s posted is a treat  for study too, but it is not the same as Sunday's physical corporate gatherings are. Not because it is Sunday, but because it is effort rewarded with a lifting of spirit plus a learning of opportunities to serve our Lord during the week(s) ahead as well as praise for the week(s) past.

No there is no really good substitution for getting up and at 'em even on Sunday, and  being with others in the presence of the Holy Spirit worshipping God.

 

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