When did the woman flee into the wilderness?

[Stewardofthemystery]

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

I will reiterate that the “woman you have already defined as Mary” whom you say is the woman in Revelation 12…who you also said is the “woman/mother” of all those who “are born from above of the Holy Spirit”…and you are now saying that…she “this woman” is the “saints that flee into the wilderness” all in reference to this one woman from Revelation 12.

So you have said that the woman from revelation 12 is “Mary” the human mother of the flesh of the Lord Jesus Christ…additionally this same woman the mother of our Lord…“Mary” as you have put it…brought forth those who are born from above of the Holy Spirit…and here you say…that it is “Mary” who flees into the wilderness and that somehow she is no longer “Mary”…”she is the saints who are born from above.”

Ok fine…think what you want Stewardofthemystery…you and I are judged by the same measure…Christ.

The transition of “Mary” from the human mother of the Lord Yahshua…to the spiritual mother of those who “are born from above of the Holy Spirit”…the Body of Christ…to this woman who “becomes the saints” themselves…who flees into the wilderness…is not found in Truth nor the Scripture friend.

Tatwo...:)

Wrong, I never said the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, that is YOU who is trying to misrepresent what I actually said in the OP.  Shameful

Exodus 20:16

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Admin Note: @Stewardofthemystery This post was reported for attacking the person not the topic. Separating the two is difficult at times.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Michael37
Admin Note

[tatwo]

55 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I have never said the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, that is a FALSE accusation.😊

You did...the first sentence of the first paragraph of your OP...you said...

"In Revelation 12 we see a woman who gives birth to a man child, and the man child is caught up to God and to His throne, this of course of speaking of the Son of man Jesus Christ ascending up to the Father."  Emphasis mine.

The woman who gave birth to the Son of man...Jesus Christ...is Mary.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

This woman in Revelation 12 is “not Mary” the mother of Yahshua and Yahshua is not the “Man Child” that comes forth from this “woman.” The timing of these people, entities and events could not be more disparate.

Yahshua…is the one “actually speaking” the prophetic future…to John…because He was already been born years earlier. Hello?

The woman in Revelation 12 and the “divine seed” that she carries…part ways after His birth…the woman is chased by the dragon into the wilderness of desolation which is a place that God prepared for her. Conversely the “sons of God” the “Body of Christ” is set apart by the Lord and they are established upon His throne…in heaven…though they are on earth.

It’s a replay of the Lord Yahshua Christ’s actual sojourn on the earth…

The Messiah was birthed forth from the womb of a spiritually rebellious harlot woman known as Israel…who carried the seed of promise within her. While here…He was robed in human flesh which was also clothed in the glory and splendor of God the Father…think Adam prior to the fall…a Spirit to spirit relationship with God as father.

While here on the earth He made God the Father of creation available to Israel (humanity) in Himself…God the Father of creation could for the first time be touched loved and experienced by Israel as God manifest in the flesh…Himself…as He walked the highways and byways of His home country.

This “Man Child” of revelation 12…is and will do the same…the Head of this “Man Child” is the Lord Yahshua Christ His leader. The Body of this “Man Child” is made up of people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation they are “One New Spirit Man.” They are His temple…His place of abode…His Holy Presence dwells within them…they are His sons who live in and are raised by Father in His temple…called the “Body of Christ” under the loving eyes of His glorious Head!

Together…”Head and Body”…as the mature “sons of God”…”a man in the image and likeness of God”…comprise the corporate reality known as “Christ.” “Christ”…is not the “Head” Yahshua alone…no…the spiritual “Head” has a spiritual “Body”… and this Body will be directly proportionate to its glorious Head in every way…they are One!

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

The “Body of Christ” is synonymous with the “Sons of God” and the “Sons of God” are not “waiting and watching” for His return. The Sons of God have already experienced the Lords return…I don’t know how else to say it…He returned as the Holy Spirit who is living in their spirits and is living His life…through them…now…raising them to a full maturity…to the full stature of the Lord Himself.

Each of the “sons of God” has a unique call from God Himself…in fact we have become his poetry, a called out people that will fulfill the destiny He has given each of us, for we are joined to Yahshua, the Anointed One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance our destiny and the good works we would do to fulfill it! 

Yeh…so when you encounter a true “son of God” he knows what His Lord is doing…always…this is because of the powerfully intense and intimate “Father and Son” relationship the Holy Spirit brings to the son. The son and the Father are becoming One…the son of God is focused the good works, which God they’re Father prepared beforehand that he should walk in them.

This is why the “woman” and the “Man Child” are separated at birth…she’s a spiritual prostitute and she has rejected everything I just told you and more…and He’s the revelation of Yahshua Christ in the flesh on the earth in a Body once again. He will do what his big brother Yahshua did…globally.

After the separation of the true Body of Christ from the woman in Revelation 12…this woman chooses poorly and as a result of the dragons influence…his words like water…she sells out completely and is finally revealed as the “Mother of Harlots” who for a time is riding upon the beast.

This woman spoken of in Revelation chapter 12:1-5, 13-17…is the harlot church…the false church a spiritually religious prostitute who trades her spiritual services…which is nothing but lies and deception…to the kings of the earth with the idea that it is all working for her to the end she desires.

She is the religious spiritual Babylonian harlot posing as the bride of Christ…hence the deception. Call her Jezebel…call her the mother of harlots…she teaches for Truth…lies. Her illegitimate children are nothing more than fatherless orphans and slaves…to the beast just as she is. They however…do not know that…it’s called deception…because she has lied to them "about who their father is"…and they believe the lie because it “feels” right to their lost souls.

Tatwo...:)

[Vine Abider]

On 6/17/2024 at 12:18 PM, Stewardofthemystery said:

In Revelation 12 we see a woman who gives birth to a man child, and the man child is caught up to God and to His throne, this of course of speaking of the Son of man Jesus Christ ascending up to the Father.  After this Satan and his evil angels are cast out of heaven, in verse 6 we see the woman fleeing from the face of the Dragon.  This woman, I will call Wisdom. The woman seen here represents those who are born of the “woman's seed” as shown in Genesis 3:15; as it is the Serpent's seed who persecutes and kills the “woman's seed” as Cain killed his righteous brother Abel.  This “woman's seed” also represents those who are born from above by the Holy Spirit, as Paul showed in the allegory in Galatians 4:26 that Jerusalem above is “the mother” of us all who are born of the Holy Spirit.  

 

To confirm the timing of “when” those who are of the woman's seed flee into the wilderness, we need to go to prophecy.  After the man child Jesus was crucified, the prophecy came to pass that they would “smite the shepherd” and the flock would be scattered in Zech 13:7. ..7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

 

But God also, by the OT prophets had warned the children of Israel, that if they would not hearken to the voice of the Lord, nor keep His commandments that he would scatter them to the nations of the world, and God would sell them into the hands of their enemies.  

 

So not only were the early Christians forecast to be persecuted and killed, but also the Jews who had rejected Jesus as the Messiah. The woman fleeing into the wilderness is a sign of the saints fleeing into the Gentile Nations, where the woman was to be nourished during this time, times, and a half.  The start point of this fleeing happened after Jesus ascended and is also confirmed here in Luke 21:12-24. ..12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that

give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (the Jews) 24 And they(the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (compare to Dan 11:33)

 

 

This time period from the AOD (destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad) to "the fullness of the Gentiles" is symbolically shown as 1,260 days in scripture, but it is not to be taken at face value.  This time period is the first tribulation period, which is to the Jews as Paul said in Romans 2:9, and was forecast to last “many days” per Daniel 11:33….33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they (saints/Jews) shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days”. (compare to Luke 21:24)

 

The end of this time period is confirmed in many places in scripture, and shall be marked by the signs in the Sun, moon, and stars, and by the 6th seal events.  Then will begin the Great tribulation and the wrath of God upon the whole world.  But during this period in the wilderness, where the woman is fleeing from the Dragon trying to “carry her away”; during this time many of the saints were prophesied to be overcome.  Many would be “carried away” and led astray by many false teachers, the doctrines of men, and by taking up the beliefs, traditions, and the false idols of the Nations.  Basically, what happened to Israel in the OT has also happened to many Christians.  They, like Israel of old, would also play the Harlot with the ways of the world, and they would fall away from the faith.

 

That is why we see in Revelation 17:3 a woman who is being carried by the scarlet colored beast in the wilderness.   This woman's name I will call Wickedness, and she sits upon the heads of the beast.    

We've had this discussion before, and it has been pointed out that there are numerous conflicts with this (fairly traditional) interpretation of chapter 12 - that is, that the woman is either Israel or Mary, and that the male child is Jesus Christ Himself. (I believe it is Christ in a stronger part of His believers.) So I won't go into that here again, at least in this post.

As @tatwo pointed out, the book of Revelation is mostly forward thinking as it says in Rev 1:19 that these are things "about to take place" and not about things occurring previously (which some choose to view with chapter 12).  I just wanted to mention one thing - a simple reading & interpretation which supports that it is a tribulation timeframe: "time, times and half a time" and "one thousand two hundred and sixty days"   (Dan 12:7 & Rev 12:6)  Again, a simple reading and interpretation says this is the tribulation period of three and one half years.

On 6/26/2024 at 7:59 AM, tatwo said:

Greetings Stewardofthemystery,

You may need some assistance here in bringing forth you OP…perhaps?

The entirety of Yahshua’s conception, birth, life, testimony in the earth, scourge, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, ascension to the throne, and return to earth as the Holy Spirit…had been completed years and some contend decades…prior to Johns writing here Revelation 12…and John was aware of all of this as well…he was there…he lived through it…remember?

There’s this that I have listed above…and then...there is the fact that the “One” who first spoke to John in Revelation 1…referred to Himself as the “Alpha and Omega”…the “Lord” and the “Almighty”…undoubtedly Yahshua…in heaven.

Then in Revelation 4 we hear this same Lord Yahshua Christ…”call”…John through the “open door in heaven” up to the throne and...the One “already” sitting on the throne…in heaven…again undoubtedly Yahshua.

The resurrected, alive, already enthroned, Lord Yahshua then tells John…“I will show you what must take place after these things.” Likely in reference to the first 3 chapters of the book of Revelation…that He had just “unveiled” for John.

John is now going to be shown “what must take place after these things”…the Lord Yahshua who is on the throne in heaven…is showing John things that pertain to the “future” of his…that would be...Johns day.

So at the time of Revelation 12…being given to John…the Lord Yahshua Christ is clearly already glorified and in heaven and upon the throne of God. “John is yet alive” on the earth…supplying us with a time stamp reference…mid to late first century…and called up into His presence…up to the throne and the “One sitting on the throne”…to have the “future” of the “created heavens and earth” and its “summation” along with an understanding of the "next age"…revealed to him. This is years after the actual birth of Yahshua.

Given the veracity of the points I have made here “Stewardofthemystery”…to suggest that this “Man-child” who is “birthed forth” from this “woman” in Revelation 12...is depicting the “birth in Bethlehem” of the Lord Yahshua Christ…early in the "first century"...does not seem to flow with Scriptural picture presented to us prior to Revelation 12…which you have cited.

Tatwo...:)

I think you are conveying something similar to what I see in Rev 12, that is, that the male child is a corporate entity of Christ, that is, Christ in - what appears to be - a stronger part of His believers, right?  This is well evidenced by verses 10 & 11 which use all plural pronouns regarding those that "over came him (devil) by the blood of the Lamb."

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

That is the problem with both the preterist and futurist interpretations, in that they can only see that time of 1,260 days as being literal, taking it “naturally”at face value.  So they then try to force all end time prophecy into a small window of time, be it past, or yet future.

But they being yet carnally minded will also not understand the symbolic imagery shown in the Revelation because it is only to be “spiritually discerned” by the Holy Spirit.

In not understanding the “spiritual things” of God, they then corrupt themselves by their own carnal understanding because they only know what they know “naturally”.

Jude 1:10

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they “know naturally”, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

 

It's really not that complicated.

The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome. It's the same nation as seen in the 4th beast of Dan 7, and the iron nation of Dan 2. Rome's reign over the children of Israel begins in 63 BC.

Herod tries to kill Jesus after He is born.

The woman is faithful Israel, before the kingdom/church and after the kingdom had begun on Pentecost.  

The confusion is that when people read this that they see the church/kingdom as exclusively gentiles. The Revelation is not about the gentiles in the Kingdom. It is about faithful flesh Israel in the kingdom/church and unfaithful flesh Israel and the consequences of their rejection.

The story of the woman is about the faithful flesh children of Israel in the kingdom/church who fled into the wilderness of the gentile nations in 70 AD ish.

At the end of the time in the wilderness, the woman returns to restore Jerusalem, that was 1967. That ended the times of the gentiles that Jesus spoke about in Lk 21:24.

History PROVES that the 3 1/2 times is symbolic and not literal. It is 1900 years ish and not 3 1/2 years.

-----

The 2 witnesses also parallel Rev 12. The 2 witnesses are also faithful flesh Israel in the kingdom/church, not gentiles. This is shown by the gentiles trampling Jerusalem for the SAME amount of time as the woman of ch 12.

Both Rev 11 & 12 are shown restoring Jerusalem after 1900 years ish.

[Stewardofthemystery]

38 minutes ago, tatwo said:

You did...the first sentence of the first paragraph of your OP...you said...

"In Revelation 12 we see a woman who gives birth to a man child, and the man child is caught up to God and to His throne, this of course of speaking of the Son of man Jesus Christ ascending up to the Father."  Emphasis mine.

The woman who gave birth to the Son of man...Jesus Christ...is Mary.

Tatwo...:)

No where in my OP did I say the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, that is YOU trying to misrepresent what I actually said. 
 

All the “natural man” understands is “natural”child birth, he does not understand how one is “Born” from above BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.😊

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

26 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The woman is faithful Israel, before the kingdom/church and after the kingdom had begun on Pentecost.  

The confusion is that when people read this that they see the church/kingdom as exclusively gentiles. The Revelation is not about the gentiles in the Kingdom. It is about faithful flesh Israel in the kingdom/church and unfaithful flesh Israel and the consequences of their rejection.

The story of the woman is about the faithful flesh children of Israel in the kingdom/church who fled into the wilderness of the gentile nations in 70 AD ish.

At the end of the time in the wilderness, the woman returns to restore Jerusalem, that was 1967. That ended the times of the gentiles that Jesus spoke about in Lk 21:24.

History PROVES that the 3 1/2 times is symbolic and not literal. It is 1900 years ish and not 3 1/2 years.

-----

The 2 witnesses also parallel Rev 12. The 2 witnesses are also faithful flesh Israel in the kingdom/church, not gentiles. This is shown by the gentiles trampling Jerusalem for the SAME amount of time as the woman of ch 12.

Both Rev 11 & 12 are shown restoring Jerusalem after 1900 years ish.

I call her “spiritual Israel” because she is made up of those who are born again of “the Holy Spirit.” But her “seed”also includes both Jews and Gentiles who are born from above of “the Holy Spirit.”

It is the children of “the promise of the Holy Spirit” that are counted as “the seed” not the children of the flesh.

Romans 9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for “the seed.”

 

Galatians 4:28

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

[Stewardofthemystery]

51 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

 I just wanted to mention one thing - a simple reading & interpretation which supports that it is a tribulation timeframe: "time, times and half a time" and "one thousand two hundred and sixty days"   (Dan 12:7 & Rev 12:6)  Again, a simple reading and interpretation says this is the tribulation period of three and one half years.

I think you are conveying something similar to what I see in Rev 12, that is, that the male child is a corporate entity of Christ, that is, Christ in - what appears to be - a stronger part of His believers, right?  This is well evidenced by verses 10 & 11 which use all plural pronouns regarding those that "over came him (devil) by the blood of the Lamb."

If you take that time at face value then you might believe it is only referring to a literal 3 and a half years.

But once you understand the start point and end point of that time, then you will come to the conclusion that this time has to be “spiritually discerned” by way of the Holy Spirit.

That is the main conflict in “understanding”the proper interpretation of scripture.  The mind of the flesh strives against the mind of the Spirit.

That is why we need to have the mind of Christ in order to understand the “spiritual things” of God.  Because the proper interpretation belongs to God, and to those whom God reveals it to by His Holy Spirit.

 

 

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I call her “spiritual Israel” because she is made up of those who are born again of “the Holy Spirit.”

There is a faithful Israel before the Pentecost kingdom/church began, before 33 AD and after 33 AD. The woman is inclusive of both, showing both before and after Pentecost.

The woman is waiting for the Deliverer, that is faithful Israel before the birth of Jesus. At that time, before the Pentecost kingdom/church began, it was not possible the receive the gift of the Holy Spirit like people did on Pentecost and afterward, Acts 2:38.

The Roman dragon invaded in 63 BC. The story of the woman shows the time before Jesus and after Jesus was born.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

But her “seed”also includes both Jews and Gentiles who are born from above of “the Holy Spirit.”

In this case I would disagree. The passage shows the faithful of Israel fleeing the Roman dragon into the gentile nations. This would mean that any "seed" left in the land of Israel were gentiles in the kingdom that did not flee. The faithful would flee.

Any flesh Israel left in the land would be killed or taken away as slaves.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

It is the children of “the promise of the Holy Spirit” that are counted as “the seed” not the children of the flesh.

Although all are equal in the kingdom there is still a division of gentiles and the flesh of Israel.

This division and recognition of the flesh of Israel is shown in Lk 21:24 as Jesus promises that Israel will rule Jerusalem restored after the times of the gentile's trampling has ended.

This promise is made to the flesh of Israel and not the gentiles, showing that God's promises to the fathers is still valid, Rom 11:5-6, 25, 29.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Romans 9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for “the seed.”

 

Galatians 4:28

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Rom 9:3-4, "My kinsmen according to the flesh", "To whom pertaineth ... the promises;"

Rom 11:25, " That blindness to Israel in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles is come in."

It means that the gentiles and Israel are still separate in the eyes of God. Equal in the kingdom, yes, but the flesh is still a factor for the promises. Otherwise the prophecies for the final redemption of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel would not be valid, if the fulfillment was to the gentile nations alone.