When did the woman flee into the wilderness?

[Stewardofthemystery]

36 minutes ago, abcdef said:

In this case I would disagree. The passage shows the faithful of Israel fleeing the Roman dragon into the gentile nations. This would mean that any "seed" left in the land of Israel were gentiles in the kingdom that did not flee. The faithful would flee.

Any flesh Israel left in the land would be killed or taken away as slaves.

 

Although all are equal in the kingdom there is still a division of gentiles and the flesh of Israel.

This division and recognition of the flesh of Israel is shown in Lk 21:24 as Jesus promises that Israel will rule Jerusalem restored after the times of the gentile's trampling has ended.

This promise is made to the flesh of Israel and not the gentiles, showing that God's promises to the fathers is still valid, Rom 11:5-6, 25, 29.

 

Rom 9:3-4, "My kinsmen according to the flesh", "To whom pertaineth ... the promises;"

Rom 11:25, " That blindness to Israel in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles is come in."

It means that the gentiles and Israel are still separate in the eyes of God. Equal in the kingdom, yes, but the flesh is still a factor for the promises. Otherwise the prophecies for the final redemption of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel would not be valid, if the fulfillment was to the gentile nations alone.

 

Both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ ( Christians) were also persecuted by the Romans, and both Jews and Gentile Christians were also scattered to the Nations and persecuted.  It is the children of the flesh that persecute and kill the children who are born of “the Spirit.”It has been this way since Cain killed Abel.

While some prophecy is focused primarily on the flesh and blood Jews who were “not believers” in Jesus Christ, they ARE NOT of the “woman’s seed” because they ARE NOT born again from above by “the Holy Spirit.”

Those who are of the woman’s seed have in them “The testimony of Jesus Christ”

Revelation 12:17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have ((the testimony of Jesus Christ.))

 

The “unbelieving” flesh and blood Jews DO NOT believe in Jesus Christ, nor do they have “the Testimony of Jesus Christ” sealed in them BY the Holy Spirit.

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

That is the main conflict in “understanding”the proper interpretation of scripture.  The mind of the flesh strives against the mind of the Spirit.

That is why we need to have the mind of Christ in order to understand the “spiritual things” of God.  Because the proper interpretation belongs to God, and to those whom God reveals it to by His Holy Spirit.

 

 

So if I just follow the Spirit I'll have proper interpretation then? 

[Stewardofthemystery]

8 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

So if I just follow the Spirit I'll have proper interpretation then? 

“If so be”you are being “taught by Christ”and not by men.

Ephesians 4:21

If so be that ye have “heard him,”and have been “taught by him,”as the truth is in Jesus:

 

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ ( Christians) were also persecuted by the Romans,

This is true.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

and both Jews and Gentile Christians were also scattered to the Nations and persecuted.

While this is also true, the context of Rev 12 is focused on the woman who is Israel.

Israel is the woman who is waiting for the deliverer when Rome invades in 63 BC.

Israel is the one who bring forth the deliverer.

Israel is the one who Jesus tells Judea to flee into the gentile nations when Jerusalem is surrounded.

Another thing to consider is that after the woman's time in the wilderness is finished, she returns to her home which is Jerusalem. This promise is not made to the gentile nation believers, but to Israel exclusively.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

 It is the children of the flesh that persecute and kill the children who are born of “the Spirit.”It has been this way since Cain killed Abel.

I agree, but in this specific case of Rev 12 it is centered on the faithful children of Israel and not the believing gentiles.

When Rome destroyed the temple in 70 AD it was not the gentiles who fled from Judea, but believing Israel.

This is their story primarily.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

While some prophecy is focused primarily on the flesh and blood Jews who were “not believers” in Jesus Christ, they ARE NOT of the “woman’s seed” because they ARE NOT born again from above by “the Holy Spirit.”

What happened to the Jews who did not flee in 70 AD ish? Both believing and unbelieving?

They were either killed or taken as slaves.

What happened to gentiles in Israel who did not flee? They were gentiles and not Jews, so they were not killed or taken as slaves. They were persecuted after a time, but in Rev 12 the focus is primarily on the flesh of Israel.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Those who are of the woman’s seed have in them “The testimony of Jesus Christ”

Yes, but the flesh of Israel who did not flee either fled, died, or were slaves.

 

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

 

Revelation 12:17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have ((the testimony of Jesus Christ.))

 

The “unbelieving” flesh and blood Jews DO NOT believe in Jesus Christ, nor do they have “the Testimony of Jesus Christ” sealed in them BY the Holy Spirit.

Please consider this,

The Revelation is primarily about Israel believing and unbelieving and not centered on the gentile believers. The gentile believers are mentioned, but not often.  

It is common to think that the kingdom is now gentiles exclusively. This comes from the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). They have taught for years that they are Israel exclusively and persecuted the real children of Israel to this day.

The idea that the Revelation is mainly about the believing gentiles and that the children of Israel are secondary confuses the meaning.

This is shown in Rev 12 as many believe that it is about the gentile church and not centered on the original church which was exclusively Israel for several years after it began.

Looking at the Revelation through the lens that it is talking about the kingdom of Israel, the flesh believers and unbelievers, clarifies the meaning.

In Rev 12, it is primarily concerned about flesh Israel believers and the restoration of Jerusalem at the end of the woman's time in the wilderness of the gentile nations. That restoration of Jerusalem happened in 1967.

So the prophecies in Rev 12 are completely fulfilled at this time.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Please consider this,

The Revelation is primarily about Israel believing and unbelieving and not centered on the gentile believers. The gentile believers are mentioned, but not often.  

It is common to think that the kingdom is now gentiles exclusively. This comes from the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). They have taught for years that they are Israel exclusively and persecuted the real children of Israel to this day.

The idea that the Revelation is mainly about the believing gentiles and that the children of Israel are secondary confuses the meaning.

This is shown in Rev 12 as many believe that it is about the gentile church and not centered on the original church which was exclusively Israel for several years after it began.

Looking at the Revelation through the lens that it is talking about the kingdom of Israel, the flesh believers and unbelievers, clarifies the meaning.

In Rev 12, it is primarily concerned about flesh Israel believers and the restoration of Jerusalem at the end of the woman's time in the wilderness of the gentile nations. That restoration of Jerusalem happened in 1967.

So the prophecies in Rev 12 are completely fulfilled at this time.

 

The Revelation events are mainly focused on events that happened after Jesus was born and was crucified.  The focus before the cross was mainly to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  But after the cross the focus is more on the gospel being preached to the Nations, until the fulness of the Gentiles, and then God’s favor returns to flesh and blood Israel.

After the cross is when the 2 flocks (Jews and Gentile believers ) became “one flock” as Jesus said.  This means those Gentiles who were born of the Spirit would be “grafted into God’s Israel” and made “fellow citizens of Israel,”as is also written.  The Gentile converts did not replace Israel, they were made a part of God’s Israel by the Spirit. 

Both Jews and Gentiles are joined together into the “One body of Christ” BY the Holy Spirit.  Jesus on the cross tore down the partition that divided the Jewish believers from the Gentile believers, making for Himself “One new man,” as is also written.

Keep in mind, it is written that not all Israel is OF Israel. And that a Jew is not one who is “outward in appearance”according to the flesh, but a Jew to God is one who is “inward” in the heart according to “the Spirit.”

So the persecution of the saints that was prophesied includes both Jew and Gentile believers in Christ.

There is only One Flock, One Good Olive Tree, and One Body of Christ, that is United by One Spirit.

But there is a True Israel and a false Israel.  There is a true Jew, and there is a false Jew.  Just as there is a True Church, and there is a false harlot church.  There is a heavenly Jerusalem, and there is also an earthly Jerusalem.

Knowing the difference is important.

 

 

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

The Revelation events are mainly focused on events that happened after Jesus was born and was crucified.  The focus before the cross was mainly to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  But after the cross the focus is more on the gospel being preached to the Nations, until the fulness of the Gentiles, and then God’s favor returns to flesh and blood Israel.

After the cross is when the 2 flocks (Jews and Gentile believers ) became “one flock” as Jesus said.  This means those Gentiles who were born of the Spirit would be “grafted into God’s Israel” and made “fellow citizens of Israel,”as is also written.  The Gentile converts did not replace Israel, they were made a part of God’s Israel by the Spirit. 

Both Jews and Gentiles are joined together into the “One body of Christ” BY the Holy Spirit.  Jesus on the cross tore down the partition that divided the Jewish believers from the Gentile believers, making for Himself “One new man,” as is also written.

Keep in mind, it is written that not all Israel is OF Israel. And that a Jew is not one who is “outward in appearance”according to the flesh, but a Jew to God is one who is “inward” in the heart according to “the Spirit.”

So the persecution of the saints that was prophesied includes both Jew and Gentile believers in Christ.

There is only One Flock, One Good Olive Tree, and One Body of Christ, that is United by One Spirit.

But there is a True Israel and a false Israel.  There is a true Jew, and there is a false Jew.  Just as there is a True Church, and there is a false harlot church.  There is a heavenly Jerusalem, and there is also an earthly Jerusalem.

Knowing the difference is important.

 

 

Ok, so when did the woman flee into the wilderness? 70 AD?

If it was 70 AD, then how does the 3 1/2 times and the 1260 days fit into the prophecy?

Wasn't it 1900 years until Jerusalem was restored to Israel and the woman left the wilderness?

 

 

 

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

10 hours ago, abcdef said:

Ok, so when did the woman flee into the wilderness? 70 AD?

If it was 70 AD, then how does the 3 1/2 times and the 1260 days fit into the prophecy?

Wasn't it 1900 years until Jerusalem was restored to Israel and the woman left the wilderness?

 

 

 

 

I believe “the saints”began to be scattered right after Jesus was crucified.  As it is written…

Zechariah 13:7

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lordof hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

 

But as far as the prophecy timeline goes I do believe it began when the Destruction of Jerusalem took place in 70 ad and those who were there to witness it were told to flee…

 

Luke 21:21

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

 

The time clock began when the AOD was set up….

 

Daniel 12:11-12

King James Version

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

The “first tribulation” was to the flesh and blood Jews as Paul said, as they were also scattered to the Nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation.  History also confirms this.

And Jesus said this first tribulation period (1,260 days) would end at the “fullness of the Gentiles.”

This fullness of the Gentiles event will be marked by the signs in the Sun, moon and stars(6th seal signs) And it will be marked by “ungodliness being removed from Jacob” as Paul said.

So we have a begin point to that 1,260 days prophecy, and we also many “signs”that will mark the end point of that first tribulation.

Luke 21:24-25

King James Version

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the “times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

25 And there shall be “signs”in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

 

When the first tribulation of the Jews ends at the 6th seal, then begins the Great Tribulation that is determined to be upon the whole world.

 

All of this can be confirmed by the words of God.

[tatwo]

19 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I think you are conveying something similar to what I see in Rev 12, that is, that the male child is a corporate entity of Christ, that is, Christ in - what appears to be - a stronger part of His believers, right? 

Greetings Vine Abider...

In regard to your question…yes...yes it is…thank you…I agree with your assessment of my “intention” with that. 

"A stronger part of His believers"...is a nice way to put it. In Matthew 22 the Lord Yahshua said it this way…"For many are called, but few are chosen"…something like that fits descriptively here.

In Revelation 12...the "divine seed" that this woman “carries” is “the few the chosen” called the “son of God" and that is not difficult to understand...though I must add...it is "a revelation that requires the Lord's participation."  There is much to say about this…perhaps we get to some of it.

The prophetic picture that fits nicely here is…”Israel as the woman” and of course “Yahshua as the Son of God.” The Lord came “out of her”…so to speak…He was separated from her…clearly…He no longer identifies as the Israel who became the spiritual harlot.

This woman of Revelation 12 is the prophetic fulfillment “spiritually” of what Israel fulfilled “naturally”…which is what I am attempting to show at least in part. This woman in Revelation 12 is to the spiritual Kingdom of God on earth…what Israel was to the Lord Yahshua.

This woman in Revelation 12 is the “harlot church or false bride” from which the Father calls out His sons. It would seem that this is the most basic definition of “apostasy” really.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

19 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

This is well evidenced by verses 10 & 11 which use all plural pronouns regarding those that "over came him (devil) by the blood of the Lamb."

That’s a valid and supportive point…and there is a lot in that…for instance…the announcement that the dragon has been “thrown down”…down to the “earth” no less…comes wrapped in a huge heavenly encouragement…why? Why does heaven consider this moment worthy of a shout out?

Well…the dragon and all his entourage are now “on the earth”…no longer in the heavens...who else is on the earth? It is "A stronger part of His believers"…Abider…that…is who else is on the earth.

It’s the “sons of God”…they are here…with the overcoming spirit of the Lion…the steadfastness of the Ox…the prophetic Spirit of the Eagle all robed in the flesh of humanity that is clothed in the glory of their Father…as “One New Spiritual Man”…if you can see what I mean?

The “Son of God”…the “Body of Christ…including His Head” in the end of the age is defined as “overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they are not afraid to die…for their Lord and Father.”

This Son carry’s in His being…the full grace and glory of God their Father…in the exact proportion as their Lord and Savior did when in His “own” flesh upon the earth. They are underwritten by the power and authority of the eternal throne of God…they are an unstoppable force from eternity.

And now…sticking with Revelation 12…the mature Son of God is on the earth…and all that the dragon has been up to...since the Garden of Eden…the beast...let’s call it…the mature sons of Satan…is also on the earth.

It’s the completed fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 which is the playing out of the “enmity” that God put upon the “seed of the serpent” in opposition to the “seed of the woman.”

I’ll stop there for now.

It is the revealing of a mystery hidden away in God for long ages past and our Lord has chose this time to show us…and for good reason….it’s the end of the age and He is giving His “Body – Son” what they need from Him to do His will and accomplish His works.

Thoughts?

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

 

19 hours ago, tatwo said:

"In Revelation 12 we see a woman who gives birth to a man child, and the man child is caught up to God and to His throne, this of course of speaking of the Son of man Jesus Christ ascending up to the Father."  Emphasis mine.

The above...you stated...Stewardofthemystery...the first sentence of your OP.

18 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

No where in my OP did I say the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, that is YOU trying to misrepresent what I actually said. 

Ask any 10 year old kid in Sunday school..."what is the name of the "woman" who give birth to the "Son of man Jesus Christ"...they know...and so do you...its "Mary."

I misrepresented nothing...your words betray your mind...continue on your journey into the wilderness Stewardofthemystery.

Tatwo...:)