Begotten Son or Eternal Son?

[PATrobas]

Perhaps we might be able to comprehend this subject a bit better if we remember that the Word of God was not named JESUS until He was born in human flesh. Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. "Jesus" was not in existence until His conception. However, the Word of God exists from eternity past. The Word then became flesh 2000 years ago, and now we call Him Jesus.

The Word of God was manifested many times in the O.T. in human form (a Theophanies) but not named as Jesus, as He had not been born a human yet. Jesus is His human name, and was born (Jesus had a beginning) and He died (He had an end) but we know that He rose from the dead and will never die again. The Word never ceased to exist, had no beginning, has no end. The Word can't die, but Jesus died. Isaiah 6:1 says In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Then in John we read,

John 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

Jhn 12:38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?:39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.:41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Isaiah 6:1)

He spoke of the Lord, the Word manifested on His throne. We know that that was the manifested creator God and the same who would 700 years later be born a human and His name would be Jesus, but We can't say that was "Jesus" because "Jesus" hadn't been born yet.

[farouk]

6 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty Jehovah God, Creator of everything that exists. So He never had a beginning, because He is God. 

The fact that He was begotten must be referring to his earthly incarnation. God took on flesh and came into the world as an ordinary baby but He remained fully God and fully man at all times. 

He is currently sitting at His Fathers right hand, in the same form as He was when He ascended to heaven 2000 years ago. He still has the wounds in his hands and feet and his side. 

We have trouble getting our minds around the Godhead as they exist as the Holy Trinity, Three Persons but One Godhead. God is a mystery, we will never fully know Him or understand how or why He does what he does.  

In Acts 13.33 and Hebrews 1.4 begotten clearly refers to the resurrection, underlining His eternal deity.

[Mr. M]

45 minutes ago, farouk said:

In Acts 13.33 and Hebrews 1.4 begotten clearly refers to the resurrection, underlining His eternal deity.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,

according to the spirit of holiness,

by the resurrection from the dead:

[Charlie1988]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The Logos

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,

that all through him might believe. 

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness

of that Light. 

9 That was the true Light which gives

light to every man coming into the world.

Colossians 1:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, 

the firstborn over all creation. 

16 For by Him all things were created

that are in heaven and that are on earth,

visible and invisible, whether thrones or 

dominions or principalities or powers.

All things were created through Him

and for Him. 

17 And He is before all things,

and in Him all things consist.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again,

saying, “I am the light of the world.

He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness,

but have the light of life.”

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, 

I am the light of the world.

John 12:

44 Then Jesus cried out and said, 

“He who believes in Me, believes not in Me 

but in Him who sent Me. 

45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 

46 I have come as a light into the world,

that whoever believes in Me should not

abide in darkness.

1 John 1:5 This is the message which we

have heard from Him and declare to you,

that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 

God is Light...

His Voice is Light...

His Word is Light...

The Son of God is the Light...

The only begotten...

Made from the pure substance

of God's Spirit/Voice/Breathe...

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure

in earthen vessels, that the excellence

of the power may be of God and not of us.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt

among us, and we beheld His glory,

the glory as of the only begotten

of the Father, full of grace and truth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Made from the pure substance of God's Spirit/Voice/ Breathe....". My understanding is that noting about Jesus was ever made, since everything that exists was made by Him and we know He didn't make Himself since He has always existed as God.

You listed 2 Corinthians 4:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,

It says the "Word became flesh and dwelt among us", that means He already existed as thee Son before He became flesh. So the "begotten of the Father" can not possibly mean that the Man Jesus only came into existence at His incarnation as a Baby.

I understand it as God taking on the form of a Man to show Himself to us. We know that the Father is also bares the image of a man just as the Son does, because Gods said in Genesis "let "Us" create man in Our own image", that proves the that the Holy Trinity consists of three individual Persons as One Godhead. 

Whatever we read about Jesus being born, incarnated and begotten has to be understood as Jesus just adding a physical or biological to Himself. But nothing new was added to who He already was in the Spiritual sense.   

 

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Charlie1988 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "Made from the pure substance of God's Spirit/Voice/ Breathe...."

Re' sheet means 'first'

Genesis 1:1 First God created everything.

Then He preceded to make everything

by His Logos=His own intent and purpose.

 

John 1:3 All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

Creation First, made or manifested by The Word after.

 

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day

and sanctified it, because in it He rested from

all His work which God had created and made. bara asa

 

Creativity is the work of the imagination of the heart,

which man quickly corrupted.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man

was great in the earth, and that every imagination

of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Therefore before anything was made that was made,

all was first created in the imagination (mind) of elohim.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that

the worlds were framed by the word of God,

so that things which are seen were not made

of things which do appear.

 

Edited June 22, 2024 by Mr. M

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Charlie1988 said:

It says the "Word became flesh and dwelt among us", that means He already existed as thee Son before He became flesh. So the "begotten of the Father" can not possibly mean that the Man Jesus only came into existence at His incarnation as a Baby.

Yep. That is why 2 Co 4:14 is the final citation

of a proof that began with Genesis 1:3.

The Logos is the Light. All of creation followed,

"the firstborn of all creation".

[Charlie1988]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Re' sheet means 'first'

Genesis 1:1 First God created everything.

Then He preceded to make everything

by His Logos=His own intent and purpose.

 

John 1:3 All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

Creation First, made or manifested by The Word after.

 

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day

and sanctified it, because in it He rested from

all His work which God had created and made. bara asa

 

Creativity is the work of the imagination of the heart,

which man quickly corrupted.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man

was great in the earth, and that every imagination

of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Therefore before anything was made that was made,

all was first created in the imagination (mind) of elohim.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that

the worlds were framed by the word of God,

so that things which are seen were not made

of things which do appear.

 

I'm not sure which Bible translation your quoting from, or if you're paraphrasing Hebrews 11:13, but my Bible reads entirely different. 

In the NKJV Hebrews 11:13 says, These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

In any case, I'm sure we agree that Jesus is God and He never had a beginning, so whatever the translations say must mean He just added flesh to Himself at one point. But that never changed who He is

 

[Mr. M]

4 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

In the NKJV Hebrews 11:13 says,

Hebrews 11:3

[Your closest friendnt]

11 hours ago, PATrobas said:

Perhaps we might be able to comprehend this subject a bit better if we remember that the Word of God was not named JESUS until He was born in human flesh. Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. "Jesus" was not in existence until His conception. However, the Word of God exists from eternity past. The Word then became flesh 2000 years ago, and now we call Him Jesus.

The Word of God was manifested many times in the O.T. in human form (a Theophanies) but not named as Jesus, as He had not been born a human yet. Jesus is His human name, and was born (Jesus had a beginning) and He died (He had an end) but we know that He rose from the dead and will never die again. The Word never ceased to exist, had no beginning, has no end. The Word can't die, but Jesus died. Isaiah 6:1 says In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Then in John we read,

John 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

Jhn 12:38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?:39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.:41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Isaiah 6:1)

He spoke of the Lord, the Word manifested on His throne. We know that that was the manifested creator God and the same who would 700 years later be born a human and His name would be Jesus, but We can't say that was "Jesus" because "Jesus" hadn't been born yet.

We must consider that the Creator left everything that he empty himself from everything to be born in the likeness of a man. 

Later we learn that God exalted him and The Heavenly Father gave him the Glory that he had with him before from the beginning of the world. 

Jesus began his life in the womb of Mary. He did not know anything about him self till the time that he was told so. And then he told his mother and his mother said: "who told you that".

 But he was in the plan of God from the beginning and the Creator knew that because he knew the plan of God. He was in the book of the things to come. 

Edited June 23, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[Charlie1988]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Yep. That is why 2 Co 4:14 is the final citation

of a proof that began with Genesis 1:3.

The Logos is the Light. All of creation followed,

"the firstborn of all creation".

The first born of all creation has two natures. He is fully God and fully man at the same time. There's no point in trying to get our minds around that mysterious truth, we simply cannot fathom the depths of what that means.