Why Are There So Many Denominations In The Church

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

God has not spoken to man for the past 2000 years,

Ceasationists make that claim, but the truth is that while God has been speaking to individuals for 2000 years, not all have an ear to listen.

In 1981 the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and spoke, and I continue to hear Him.

 

[RdJ]

6 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

Demons can not dwell with the Holy Spirit, they always run before the Holy Spirit indwells a person. I'm not sure how you came to believe that the Holy Spirit and Demons can abide in the same temple, but I can tell you that i not true. 

When a person is born again, the Holy Spirit indwells them so if the person had a Demon then hat Demon will run as soon as He hears that the person express faith in the Lord. 

Men are powerless against Demons, one Demon can kill hundreds of thousands of men. So it's not tue to claim that a man can have some kind of authority to cast out Demons. The Bible clearly teaches that it should never be attempted by man. We know how a demon beat up a bunch of men and they ran naked and bruised for a house. 

The Demon asked them who they were, and then told them I don't know you before He proceeded to beat them up severely and ripped their clothes of them and sent them running naked. That's what happens when men try to mess with Demons. 

God only gave the power over Demons to the Apostles and nobody else, so we have to stop kidding ourselves that it was given to anyone else.

All Jesus gave us was the Gospel and nothing else, no power or and authority over anything. So the only way to exercise a Demon is to preach the gospel to the possessed person, if the person believes the gospel then the Demon will leave immediately. If the person rejects the gospel then they remain possessed. It's as simple as that.     

Those guys who ran away weren't christian and if He only gave it to the apostles that would be bad news for other demoniacs similar to the guy from the Gadarenes. What is the church's answer for those? Go to an unchristian psychiater and take drugs? 

Hey look. I never saw that. He worshipped Him.

Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the [a]Gadarenes. 2 And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore[c] You by God that You do not torment me.”

8 For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” 9 Then He asked him, “What is your name?”

And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.

11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. 12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, “Send us to the swine, that we may enter them.” 13 And [d]at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.

 

Edited June 24, 2024 by RdJ

[Tristen]

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Charlie1988 said:

I think you misunderstood some of them points I was trying to make. The main point, I was trying to make is that I don't believe that "Denominationalism" is a good thing

I understood; however the term “denomination” simply refers to a subgroup of Christianity. It does not necessarily speak to conflict and disunity. Obviously, sometimes there is conflict and disunity – but that is not always the case, and therefore not what the word suggests. Many Christian “denominations” get along perfectly fine with each other – despite their differences (of doctrine, of ministry focus, of demographic focus etc.).

 

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Charlie1988 said:

You seem OK with it, but I see it as a symptom of an underlying illness in the Church.

I'm "OK with it" if it is done maturely, and expands the church, and furthers the Gospel. But I'm not "OK with it" when it causes conflict and disunity and hinders the Gospel. However, that is more about how we behave towards each other during the formation of a new "denomination" - and not that "denominations" are somehow inherently, conceptually nefarious.

 

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Charlie1988 said:

In an ideal world, there would be no Denominations and the Church would be united as One body of believers, all worshiping God in our local Churches where the same Gospel message is preached and embraced by the members.

Is that what Jesus considers to be "ideal"? I'm not so sure. He is the One who built the church. It seems self-evident to me that He likes variety in His church. He uses that variety to reach more people.

So, if you mean a model where different sub-groups of Christians act a bit more maturely – doing a better job to get along - and learn to progress the Gospel of Christ alongside each other despite our differences, then I agree - that would be "ideal". 

However, if you mean a model where all Christians are lumped under the single human authority (person or organization), holding to all the same doctrines and worship styles, with a single ministry focus determined by the church authority, then I’d suggest that is what lead to the Roman Catholic church becoming corrupted, and tyrannical, and departing from scripture, and needing to be “reformed”.
 

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Charlie1988 said:

What we have in reality is Denominations preaching radically different Gospels describing many different types of Jesus'. It's OK to have different views on the non essentials, but we have fundamentally different interpretations being taught and these lead to false Doctrine. 

Jesus warned us in the strongest possible terms about false prophets, coming in His name and teaching the doctrine of Demons. He said "take heed that you are not deceived". He identified the greatest enemy as being in the pulpit, dressed in sheep's clothing. So according to Jesus, our greatest enemy is not some evil Dictator like Hitler or Stalin, but a clean cut man posing as a Minister in the Church. 

Which infallible human authority are we going to trust to be the arbiter of God's truth? Will anyone be permitted to question the legitimacy of this person/organization - or publicly hold a different opinion to them?

As I said previously, this model has been tried - and it leads to corruption and tyranny and bloodshed and the Gospel being hidden away.

 

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Charlie1988 said:

Today we see many Churches are man centered, the focus is on the individual instead of God

You are more comfortable aligning yourself with the accuser of our brethren than I.

Jesus said that He will build His church. I'd posit that we trust He knows what He is doing and get on with working out our own salvation. 

Even if what you claim is true, how can we trust an organization of men not to make a universal "man centered" church. Then where would we be?

 

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Charlie1988 said:

Fellowship is not sharing the gospel with lost people or communication with unbiblical Churches. We can only fellowship with people who believe what we believe, that's what the word means. It can't be understood to mean "get along for the sake of peace".

I think the perspective stated in this comment causes the problems you see in others.

I assume you understand that the people who disagree with your doctrines also consider themselves to be holders of God's truth. There is no humility in suggesting, 'Every sincere Christian should come together under my banner'. What if you are wrong, and they are right?

 

Ultimately, what you are suggesting doesn't work. And more importantly, it is not the model Jesus has chosen.

 

[Neighbor]

8 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

Men are powerless against Demons,

Hi, I don't see that  as being correct, not from the testimony within the Bible anyway. For the Bible account at Matthew 12  states that itinerant Jewish exorcists had been doing just that. Doing so in the name of Jesus.

It wasn't until the seven sons of Sceva tried it that  the man who they tried exorcism upon evil spirit  replied  "Jesus I know and Paul too but who are you?" and attacked them.

 ..."Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul,  so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.  Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.”  Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.  This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."

 

[Neighbor]

 What all created beings are powerless against is the wrath of God, His just wrath not allowing for His name to be used lightly or for personal glory or as an add on in life's happenings and adventures as though His name is an additive agent or ingredient.

[RdJ]

12 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

If more Churches obeyed Gods instructions on, how He wants to be served and worshiped, I would visit them as well and have fellowship with them. But the sad reality is the vast majority are focused on serving themselves and their personal agendas. 

Some of the Churches I visited when I was Church shopping, were more like a rock concert that a Church service. I used to come home with my ears ringing from the loud distorted cheap and amateur rock band. I wounder if God would accept that kind of self indulgent worship, I couldn't stand it so I assume God would be there either. 

Some of my friends attend Churches which are man centered, they accuse me of being judgmental when I say I don't believe they are pleasing to the Lord. Our Pastor regularly reminds us our services that we are here to worship and it's all about Him and for Him.    

Ah that explains it. I was wondering why you went from pentecostal to reformed. Now I understand. I once took an atheist to a hip church meeting. He said: Why is it all black? I hadn't even noticed. Why is there no light anymore on the podium?

[Neighbor]

Some thoughts in addition:

Seems Jesus gave 12 humans a permanent  power and assignment regarding demons, but they were  to go to Jews only, whereas He also gave 70 disciples a temporary power to do the same, and evidently they were enabled to go to both Jew and Gentile alike  calling out demons from possessed individuals. Doing so in the name of and by authority of Jesus.

Seems to me man is not unable to resist demons, but man had better not presume having authority by and on the name of Jesus as His authority in doing so. I think that ticks off God not  the demons.

What is risky for a human is to resist a demon, cleanse oneself of that which is demonic, and not fill the void created. Those that try  to do so evidently end up many times worse off for not accepting and appreciating the authority of Jesus over themselves in all things. For all they will have accomplished is to empty up space for the return of their original demon problem plus having made ample comfort  for that demon's companions.

So what is the purpose, the overall lesson to learn? First do not put God in a (limiting) box of one's own making.

Second; Do not presume upon God, ask! Ask knowing if asked rightly He is faithful to answer (Affirmatively). Third credit God in all matters, and give thanks in all results, much as Job implored to his wife.

God hears today as he always has, He answers as He always has, He will however also show his just wrath, turn the arrogant, the prideful ones, to their own strong delusion, a plight everyone of us might want to avoid.

-just some thoughts as this thread evolves abit.

As to the question of how come so many denominations; might also ask how come so many rooms in Jesus Father's house? ....

 

And why the QUIET! sign by the Baptist's room? You know that old saw right? 

 

 

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

If more Churches obeyed Gods instructions on, how He wants to be served and worshiped, I would visit them as well and have fellowship with them. But the sad reality is the vast majority are focused on serving themselves and their personal agendas. 

Some of the Churches I visited when I was Church shopping, were more like a rock concert that a Church service. I used to come home with my ears ringing from the loud distorted cheap and amateur rock band. I wounder if God would accept that kind of self indulgent worship, I couldn't stand it so I assume God would be there either. 

Some of my friends attend Churches which are man centered, they accuse me of being judgmental when I say I don't believe they are pleasing to the Lord. Our Pastor regularly reminds us our services that we are here to worship and it's all about Him and for Him.    

The group I've been with here locally for over 25 years has a very open and participatory way of gathering. There are one or two playing unplugged folk guitars and a piano, and usually just the members singing (i.e., no one up front), which we do quite enthusiastically. (Others visiting us have referred to us as "the singing church" as we really belt it out)

When traveling, the groups I visit often have singers and instrument players up front leading things.  But I find that almost no other group sings as enthusiastically as my local bunch does.  And sometimes the "production" up front is so involved or loud, it's hard to hear the members singing . . . or they don't seem to sing in a very engaged way.

We've had a number of discussions on here about how the focus on a few up front can often detract from the members functioning well in our gatherings.  I believe when the members function well, like really being engaged and participating in singing worship (and/or openly testifying of their experience of the Lord in their lives to the group), that each person's own spirit is nourished all the more, and it really raises the level of life.

[warrior12]

13 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

And why the QUIET! sign by the Baptist's room? You know that old saw right? 

That what you call punching under the belt.  But order is order, so say the judge with the hammer.  

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, warrior12 said:

That what you call punching under the belt.  But order is order, so say the judge with the hammer.  

Marquees of Queensberry rules.

My own water baptism took place in an Independent Baptist Church dunk tank where I was a rather active "member" for some early years after being born again. We loved a good joke on us. Loved to tell 'em too.

Hey, if one can't tell a good joke within every five minutes of a KJV only sermon one can't be considered a good Baptist pastor. "Our" second favorite pastime  was  deciding on, if given a choice to decide, what community we would each be assigned by Jesus to rule over during the millennium period.  Always shared as a joke-sort of, but I don't know if the hearts knew it.

Ahh my Baptist days. Good people but kinda well .... as the say'n goes takes all kinds. Why look at me, well not really, but consider, I am only now becoming part of the great American Hippie Christian movement generally associated with Calvary Chapels. How funny, I was there back in the 1960's right there,- Costa Mesa area and was a suit!

Now more than a half century later I'm a hippie, guess that makes me a laggard. And the potter seems to be still turning me adding water shaping and reshaping me.

I know; I hereby declare the newest denomination and call it Neighbor Church.