Why Are There So Many Denominations In The Church

[Neighbor]

7 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

I don't see any justification for the government to demand that he pay tax. 

Hmm, do you actually know what he thinks? Does he really think he is entitled to not pay taxes?

If so how is he different from those Jesus advised otherwise?

Reference to Matthew 22:15-22 New King James Version

"The Pharisees: Is It Lawful to Pay Taxes to Caesar?

 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk.  And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.  Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”

 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?  Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”

 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way."

[farouk]

5 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hmm, do you actually know what he thinks? Does he really think he is entitled to not pay taxes?

If so how is he different from those Jesus advised otherwise?

Reference to Matthew 22:15-22 New King James Version

"The Pharisees: Is It Lawful to Pay Taxes to Caesar?

 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk.  And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.  Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”

 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?  Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”

 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way."

Good verse quoted there, @Neighbor . So many focus on the manward aspect, but it's the Godward aspect that counts the most.

[Charlie1988]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Charlie,

At first the denominations were to stand for the truth the Holy Spirit had clarified - eg. Lutheran, Baptist, methodist, Salvation Army, Pentecostal, Apostolic.

In the 1960s the charismatic revival came and believers of main line denominations received the infilling of the Holy Spirit, but they did not have to leave their denomination. This was good however, there was an undue emphasis on the Holy Spirit and believers started to look to the Holy Spirit instead of Christ the Head. 

Thus, believers became vulnerable to any spirit who masqueraded as an angel of light. Many believers couldn`t tell the difference and were being `guided` by demonic influences. Many of those who desired to be leaders started nondenominational groups and taught out of their faulty theology. They had no council of others to really guide them. 

Then we had the `so-called` revivals - Toronto, Brownville etc which had kundalini spirits operating making people jerk and do silly things. Vulnerable people came from all over the world and were thus `infected,` and took back to their groups these demonic spirits. Believers thought that any jerking and movement was the Holy Spirit, (not at all Holy) and thus entered in and desired more.

Bethal organization emphasizes these strange movements and people flock there to receive, thinking it is the presence of the Lord. This is spreading throughout most denominations and non-denominations. 

Christ, the Head of the Body has by His Holy Spirit warned us as we come to the unity of the faith....

`That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ...` (Eph. 4: 14 & 15)

 

 

That's an interesting historical summary, I would just like to point out to things of concern. You mention that there was an undue emphasis o the Holy spirit, instead of Christ during the revivals in the 1960's. I don't see that as an issue at all, I think it's good and right, because Jesus ascended back to heaven 2000 years ago and He hasn't spoken a single word to us and nobody has spoken a single word to Him in those 2000 years. 

Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit, so He is all we have at this time. We won't be with the Lord Jesus Christ until we die. So our only link to the Godhead on this side of eternity is the Holy Spirit Himself. 

The other thing that concerns me is, you say that during the revival people came from mainline denominations and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, but they didn't leave their Denominations. I may have misunderstood what you meant here, but it sounded as though large numbers of people were being indwelt by the Holy Spirit during those crusades.

My understanding is that a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit after they are regenerated and born again. I don't believe this takes place for large numbers of people at the same time, I believe there's a lengthy process of preparation before a person is born again. it's not something that happens, during an alter call. You don't walk down the isle as an unconverted person and walk back as a converted person just because someone laid hands on you and prayed over you.  

[farouk]

5 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

That's an interesting historical summary, I would just like to point out to things of concern. You mention that there was an undue emphasis o the Holy spirit, instead of Christ during the revivals in the 1960's. I don't see that as an issue at all, I think it's good and right, because Jesus ascended back to heaven 2000 years ago and He hasn't spoken a single word to us and nobody has spoken a single word to Him in those 2000 years. 

Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit, so He is all we have at this time. We won't be with the Lord Jesus Christ until we die. So our only link to the Godhead on this side of eternity is the Holy Spirit Himself. 

The other thing that concerns me is, you say that during the revival people came from mainline denominations and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, but they didn't leave their Denominations. I may have misunderstood what you meant here, but it sounded as though large numbers of people were being indwelt by the Holy Spirit during those crusades.

My understanding is that a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit after they are regenerated and born again. I don't believe this takes place for large numbers of people at the same time, I believe there's a lengthy process of preparation before a person is born again. it's not something that happens, during an alter call. You don't walk down the isle as an unconverted person and walk back as a converted person just because someone laid hands on you and prayed over you.  

The Lord indeed also left us the Scriptures..........

[Neighbor]

Sidenote: I find it none of my business what  a pastor is compensated except that He is worth his wages! I do know how very dedicated to the work  those I have associated with are, working hours into evenings day after day for decades of life for the body of Christ Jesus. Some with full time businesses in addition, but others full time  ministry only.

My own limited duties for the 14 years I worked  within a church and Christian schools environment took no less than 70 to 90 hours per week, day after day, week in week out; and then there were volunteer activities and meetings,  plus worship services and classes on top of that. It becomes a way of life 24/7.

It's not for those that calculate compensation values by the clock.  People would ask do you live here? They would think nothing of calling me at home at any time of day or night for something they needed  or wanted or went wrong that they felt  needed tending, calling with the opening "I know you are probably busy but" ....

Church leaders are well worth ample compensation for their work. 

[Charlie1988]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

So should you be mixing with those of us here who do not align with Reformed Theology?

I'm not sure what you mean by "mixing", but it doesn't sound like fellowship. To fellowship with people who hold to opposing doctrines and theological views is to denounce your own Church. 

Fellowship means to agree with each other and worship together, this is not possible while we have radically different beliefs about who God is and how He should be worshiped. 

To discuss topics about Christianity has nothing to do with fellowship, since hardly anyone agrees with others, when it comes to the interpretation of scripture and their particular system of theology. 

My Church goes door knocking regularly, and we spend many hours discussing Christianity with people from all kinds of religions and Christian Denominations. We don't have any fellowship with them, unless we happen upon another Reformed person, but Jesus commanded us to go into all the world preaching the Holy Trinity. 

So sharing the Gospel, and preaching the Holy Trinity as One Godhead is not fellowship, it's just what we do out of obedience.    

Edited June 22, 2024 by Charlie1988

[Neighbor]

12 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

My understanding is that a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit after they are regenerated and born again. I don't believe this takes place for large numbers of people at the same time, I believe there's a lengthy process of preparation before a person is born again. it's not something that happens, during an alter call. You don't walk down the isle as an unconverted person and walk back as a converted person just because someone laid hands on you and prayed over you.  

Seems to me it has occurred, and to very large numbers of people at the same time, as is recorded within the book of Acts for example.

Acts 2 New King James Version Coming of the Holy Spirit

"When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.  Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.  And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.  Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?  And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?  Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,  Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.” But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.  For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.  But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—  Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.  For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,  he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.  This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.  Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this [l]perverse generation.”  Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.  And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.  Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.  Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,  and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,  praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

 

[Charlie1988]

3 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Wow that  is quite the indictment. You are certain  God doesn't even recognize "them" as churches?

God gave very strict instructions on what constitutes a Church, if we ignore those instructions He ignores us. 

The Church doesn't gather to entertain the crowd and indulge the senses with rock 'n roll music or provide a social center. The Church gathers to worship God according to His dictates, it has nothing to do with making us feel good. It's all about God and nothing about us. 

[farouk]

2 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

God gave very strict instructions on what constitutes a Church, if we ignore those instructions He ignores us. 

The Church doesn't gather to entertain the crowd and indulge the senses with rock 'n roll music or provide a social center. The Church gathers to worship God according to His dictates, it has nothing to do with making us feel good. It's all about God and nothing about us. 

@Charlie1988 Acts 2.42 is indeed rather specific about what the early believers in the church did..........

[Charlie1988]

2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

  Perhaps I am confused, for the Bible it seems to me shares of many churches, each with  quite unique qualities assets and liabilities. Yet it's many members are all Christians receiving exhortations and blessings as well as being blessing to God.

 It is also so that some very early on had already left their first love and were in danger of rejection by God, but to indict all bodies except one's own seems a bit risky a pride to carry for any  lead pastor of one church body. Seems to me better to be humble before God, allowing Him His due and not judging for Him that only one's self has the only way to acceptable worship of Jesus as Lord God and personal savior.

As early as my Lord's earthly walk of his two year ministry, I think he exhibited much generosity in how anyone worships God and is found acceptable. Specifically there is encouragement of that in his encounter  with a Samaritan woman.

As for myself I find I can fellowship with most if not all  that  love God. And I need not remove myself from those that do not  yet even know of His reality  in their life. Instead I am to go when offered opportunity to those very individuals and to bring "light" as humbly as I am enabled to do all in the name of Jesus.

My Church doesn't judge anyone, we visit lost sinners in prison, we reach out to prostitutes and drug addicts and all kinds of lost people. In our experience we have found religious people to be the most lost, because they throw up barriers and get very defensive and even militant when we shine the light of the Gospel on their religion. 

Our Pastor was warning us about fellowshipping with those religious people who have been indoctrinated by the false doctrine of Demons. All we can do is pray that God opens their eyes, and live our lives in a way that bares a good testimony for them to see.