Core Essentials of Our One Faith (for fellowshipping with others)?

[Sower]

7 hours ago, First and the Last said:

I don't fault anyone for not having received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Only to those who believe its not available today or just blatantly don't care. And trying to convince others of the same. Truth of God's word must alway prevail.

                        " just blatantly don't care"

That's kinda strong, but it is my present understanding. I'm saved. I'm born again. God's spirit resides within me. A given!
God's spirit instructs me, guides me. He comforts me. I do not care if I meet your standards of "Baptism of the Holy Ghost"

                      "not having received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost"

I do not hold the emphasis of knowing  whether or not I have been 'baptized' in the holy spirit or not, by YOUR standards.
God says as a born again believer his spirit resides in me. cool. I have been convinced, as recently as an hour ago sharing the gospel to a stranger (delivery woman) who was moved so much (hearing the good news) to almost tears, and knowing/feeling God's presence and his voice through my lips,  that the spirit not only was speaking through me, but was confirming what I was doing pleased the  father. A nice feeling, but baptism?

The only time I have witnessed those who claim they were 'baptized in the spirit' was videos on the tube, or friends talking about it witnessing those "slain in the spirit", many falling down on the chairs and slamming on the ground. Chaos and confusion.
Sorry, but that is my only experience. I know no one claiming this baptism. And know no charismatics.

Guess I'm basic vanilla. God has equipped me with certain gifts/talents. I try to use them to the fullest.
I believe if God wants for me to experience this baptism I may not have, he will make it happen.
I know I need to use what I already have, a doer, before I ask for more. I do not judge (try not to)  your understanding of scripture.

Thanks, First and the Last...

[First and the Last]

1 hour ago, Sower said:

God's spirit instructs me, guides me. He comforts me. I do not care if I meet your standards of "Baptism of the Holy Ghost"

I appreciate your openness and respect your personal experience with God's Spirit. It's wonderful to hear that you feel guided, instructed, and comforted by Him. I want to gently clarify that the emphasis on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is not about meeting human standards, but about aligning with what is a biblical teaching. In Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6, we see that this experience was a significant part of the early church and a sign of the Holy Spirit's empowerment. Our desire is for every believer to receive all that God has for them, including this precious gift, which we believe enriches and deepens our spiritual walk. Please know that this comes from a place of love and a desire to share the fullness of what we believe the Bible teaches about the Holy Spirit.

1 hour ago, Sower said:

I do not hold the emphasis of knowing  whether or not I have been 'baptized' in the holy spirit or not, by YOUR standards.

Thank you for sharing your heartfelt experience and the joy you felt in witnessing to someone about the gospel. It's wonderful to hear how God is working through you to touch others' lives. I want to clarify that the emphasis on being baptized in the Holy Spirit is not based on human standards, but on the teachings found in the Bible. In Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6, we see that receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues was a significant experience for the early believers. This is a biblical pattern that we hold dear, not as a means of measuring one's faith, but as an invitation to experience the fullness of God's Spirit. We believe that this baptism is an additional empowerment for service and a deeper relationship with God. It’s not about questioning your current relationship with God or the wonderful ways He is already using you, but about encouraging you to seek all that He has for you. We love and support you in your walk with God and are here to walk alongside you as you continue to grow in Him.

 

1 hour ago, Sower said:

The only time I have witnessed those who claim they were 'baptized in the spirit' was videos on the tube, or friends talking about it witnessing those "slain in the spirit", many falling down on the chairs and slamming on the ground. Chaos and confusion.
Sorry, but that is my only experience. I know no one claiming this baptism. And know no charismatics.

I appreciate your honesty and understand how those experiences could lead to confusion and concern. From a United Pentecostal perspective, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, often accompanied by speaking in tongues and deep emotional responses, is a significant and transformative experience. While these manifestations can seem chaotic, they are heartfelt expressions of encountering God's profound presence and power.

It is also important to consider that new converts are often referred to as "babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1-2). Just as infants grow and learn over time (to talk, crawl, walk, run), new believers also undergo same process of spiritual growth and maturation. In the early stages of their faith journey, their expressions of worship and response to the Holy Spirit can be intense and may appear disorganized to those who are not familiar with these experiences.

We strive to ensure that our worship services are both passionate and orderly, aligning with 1 Corinthians 14:40, which calls for everything to be done decently and in order. This balance helps create an environment where both new and mature believers can worship freely while maintaining a sense of order and respect.

 

Refusing to even consider baptism of the Holy Ghost is doing exactly this:

Revelation 22:19, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Serves as a solemn warning about the integrity and sanctity of God's Word. This emphasizes the importance of preserving the complete and unaltered message of Scripture. The Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God, and any attempt to add to or subtract from its teachings is a serious offense against God. This verse underscores the necessity of faithfully adhering to biblical doctrine and commandments without distortion or omission. It serves as a reminder to approach God's Word with reverence, ensuring that its teachings are upheld in their entirety. The ultimate consequence of altering God's Word is losing one's place in the book of life and the blessings of eternal life, highlighting the gravity of maintaining the purity and truth of Scripture. This perspective encourages believers to study, teach, and live according to the full counsel of God's Word, preserving its integrity for future generations.

[Michael37]

18 minutes ago, First and the Last said:

Thank you for sharing your heartfelt experience and the joy you felt in witnessing to someone about the gospel. It's wonderful to hear how God is working through you to touch others' lives. I want to clarify that the emphasis on being baptized in the Holy Spirit is not based on human standards, but on the teachings found in the Bible. In Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6, we see that receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues was a significant experience for the early believers. This is a biblical pattern that we hold dear, not as a means of measuring one's faith, but as an invitation to experience the fullness of God's Spirit. We believe that this baptism is an additional empowerment for service and a deeper relationship with God. It’s not about questioning your current relationship with God or the wonderful ways He is already using you, but about encouraging you to seek all that He has for you. We love and support you in your walk with God and are here to walk alongside you as you continue to grow in Him.

Kia Ora @First and the Last

Are you familiar with the Wesleyan/Nazarene Doctrine of the Second Blessing?

The Doctrine of the Second Blessing is a concept found in certain Christian traditions.

1. First Blessing (New Birth): This is the initial experience of salvation, often referred to as being “born again.” It involves repentance, faith in Jesus Christ, and forgiveness of sins. At this stage, a person becomes a Christian.

2. Second Blessing (Entire Sanctification): According to this doctrine, after the first blessing, there is a subsequent work of grace called the “second blessing.” During this experience, a believer is purified and made holy. It is separate from the new birth and brings about significant changes in the believer’s life.

   • Methodism: John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, taught about two distinct phases in the Christian experience. The first work of grace is the new birth, and the second work of grace is entire sanctification. Wesley believed that entire sanctification could be instantaneous or gradual.

   • Holiness Movement: Emerging in the 1860s, this movement emphasized Wesley’s doctrine of entire sanctification. Many Holiness preachers taught that entire sanctification could be received as an instantaneous experience.

   • Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches: The concept of the “second blessing” is also present in these traditions, often associated with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In summary, the second blessing represents a deeper experience of holiness and consecration beyond initial salvation. Some believe it leads to sinless perfection. 

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yep. It's a timely topic indeed.

I suppose the core essentials vary from person to person. My core faith essentials are, and not all-inclusive:

• God is trinitarian; there are three persons in One God: the Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• Jesus manifested in the flesh, walked the earth, and was born of a virgin. God in the flesh. Emmanuel  = God with us.
• The Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God.
• Jesus died in my place as a substitutional death for my sins.
• Jesus physically died, was resurrected on the 3^rd day, and is now seated at our Father's right hand.
• Jesus is our mediator and advocate before the throne. There is no communication to the throne of God, or Salvation and eternal life, other than in Him, and through Him.
• Jesus lived a sinless, perfect, and holy life because He is God for our example to emulate.

I agree with everything on this list!

So if you were to prioritize the top 3-4, what would they be?

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, First and the Last said:

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is a vital and transformative experience for every believer. However, some branches of Christianity may deny or not emphasize this experience due to different theological interpretations and historical developments. Various denominations may interpret the Scriptures differently, viewing the gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues, as either symbolic, specific to the early church, or no longer necessary in the present age. Additionally, traditions, doctrinal teachings, and lack of exposure to Pentecostal practices can contribute to this divergence in belief.

As Pentecostal believers, we view the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as a continuation of the apostolic experience described in the Book of Acts, where believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 19:6). We believe this experience is for all believers today and serves as an empowering encounter that deepens one's relationship with God, provides spiritual strength, and equips individuals for service and witness.

Experiencing the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is more than a doctrinal position; it is a deeply personal and dynamic encounter with God's presence. It brings an intimate awareness of God's love and power, enhancing one's prayer life and spiritual gifts. We encourage all believers to seek this precious gift, not out of doctrinal obligation, but from a desire for a closer walk with God and a fuller experience of His Spirit in their lives. This transformative experience aligns with the promise Jesus made in John 7:37-39, where He spoke of rivers of living water, symbolizing the Holy Spirit, flowing from within those who believe in Him. Everyone should desire to open their heart to this promise and experience the fullness of God's Spirit for themselves.

So are you saying that the "baptism of the HS with tongues" is a core essential, otherwise you wouldn't enter into fellowship with someone who didn't experience that and/or hold that doctrine?

[First and the Last]

30 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

So are you saying that the "baptism of the HS with tongues" is a core essential, otherwise you wouldn't enter into fellowship with someone who didn't experience that and/or hold that doctrine?

Thank you for your thoughtful question. I believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, is a vital and transformative experience as outlined in Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6. We see it as an essential part of the New Testament salvation experience. However, it is important to approach this topic with love, grace, and understanding. While I hold firmly to my belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I also recognize the importance of fellowship and unity within the broader body of Christ. I am committed to building relationships with all believers, respecting their faith journeys, and encouraging them to seek a deeper relationship with God and help them gain a fuller understanding. Our desire is to share the fullness of the Pentecostal experience while maintaining a spirit of love and openness towards all who profess faith in Jesus Christ. Our ultimate goal is to grow together in faith and understanding, supporting each other in our spiritual walks.

[Michael37]

On 6/26/2024 at 8:02 AM, Vine Abider said:

My core items are:

1. God, in Christ, was/is reconciling the world to Himself

2. Jesus is Lord and Christ, and a person must believe on Him and receive Him into themselves to be saved

And if I was to add a #3, it might be - The bible is Word of God

There's 2-3 core essentials - I think if anyone believes in these, then the way should be open to have fellowship with them.

So what core item have I forgotten?  Is there anything that glaringly stands out that's missing from this short list, that would prevent fellowship?  (Frankly, there may actually be a couple more, but right off the top that's all I can come up with . . . )

The Lord placed me with the Church of the Nazarene from January 2010 to September 2015. They have a very comprehensive training program and a sophisticated hierarchal administrative network. I avoided getting into doctrinal disputes during my attachment but I thought it bizarre that they believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit but do not endorse the I Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit, see Statement X below.

 

X. Christian Holiness and Entire Sanctification

10. We believe that sanctification is the work of God which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification, we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

Articles of Faith | Church of the Nazarene Asia-Pacific (asiapacificnazarene.org)

 

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, First and the Last said:

Thank you for your thoughtful question. I believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, is a vital and transformative experience as outlined in Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6. We see it as an essential part of the New Testament salvation experience. However, it is important to approach this topic with love, grace, and understanding. While I hold firmly to my belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I also recognize the importance of fellowship and unity within the broader body of Christ. I am committed to building relationships with all believers, respecting their faith journeys, and encouraging them to seek a deeper relationship with God and help them gain a fuller understanding. Our desire is to share the fullness of the Pentecostal experience while maintaining a spirit of love and openness towards all who profess faith in Jesus Christ. Our ultimate goal is to grow together in faith and understanding, supporting each other in our spiritual walks.

What if a born-again one said they didn't believe in speaking in tongues - would you still have ongoing fellowship with them?

[First and the Last]

28 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

What if a born-again one said they didn't believe in speaking in tongues - would you still have ongoing fellowship with them?

Of course I would God's love commands it. It doesn't affect my eternal destiny if they don't believe.

[Neighbor]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Humor right (I hope)?

Not really.   Truth or reality  as I know it wrapped in humor perhaps.

God took me away from all the box builders, all of them, set me aside, had me reading within the Book of Job and then called on me via an angel. I was turned about without a core, without a sinners prayer 'cept "if that's true I want it".

God plays by no rules of men. He plays no holds barred.

Core today? Love God, love one another.