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Posted

Most of the teaching I've received in the past 50 years has been in the realm of the dispensationalism perspective.  However, I also hear some from the amillennialism perspective from time to time.  One radio brother (Steve Gregg) said today that the main teaching dispensationalism bases most everything on is that Israel and the church are viewed as two completely separate entities, and that ultimately Israel will rule upon the earth and the church will rule from the heavens. 

In looking up dispensationalism, the most common definitions I've found describing it are:

1.  God interacts and has dealt with His people in different ways throughout history.  For instance the Jew and the law, then Christians & grace; Therefore there is the Israel/Church differentiation (as mentioned above)

2. A literal interpretation of the bible

3. Belief in a literal return of Christ to set up a thousand year kingdom on earth

4. Rapture of the church prior to the millennial kingdom

Is this your understanding regarding what the basics of dispensationalism are about?

I think it's an error to try and categorize dispensationalism as if to say, "Dispensationalists all believe this or that!"  From what I've seen, there is a wide variety of viewpoints with it, for instance, I don't adhere to #1 above 100% and #2 might seem to need some further clarification/definition (and I also subscribe to some nuances with #4).  So hopefully we can avoid these kinds of hasty generalizations.  From what I've repeatedly seen, Christians can get a little over zealous when discussing this topic.  My hope is that we can have an intelligent, Christian discussion and avoid straying too much into the weeds or letting our flesh rule.  (If things get a tad too sideways, be aware there may be a gentle admonishment to bring us back into focus.)

Note: I know a little of the history of dispensationalism.  My purpose in this thread is not to hash out whether it originated with John Darby or was actually espoused by certain church fathers --> which supposedly would add or subtract from its credibility.  My purpose is to get a better understanding of what dispensationalism is and how others view it, and to examine the merits on its face . . . not about whether it was a recent invention or not - this, to me, is something of a non sequitur. 

BTW - I generally consider this topic as a nonessential or non-core item of the faith. Let's keep this in mind when interacting with other blood bought believers in Christ . . .

 

UPDATE:  I found this comparison chart of the different views and thought to add it - see below:image.png.869a27fccb74a371eed122610f2da7b5.png

 

image.png.de3898bc3431ae6f548393b48c1b24ea.png

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Posted
45 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Is this your understanding regarding what the basics of dispensationalism are about?

Knowing how the word is used in the Bible, and what it means in these verses may be edifying to some:

(1Co 9:17)  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(Eph 1:10)  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 3:2)  If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(Col 1:25)  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Strongs G3622
οἰκονομία
oikonomia
oy-kon-om-ee'-ah
From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”: - dispensation, stewardship.
Total KJV occurrences: 8

Vines Expository Dictionary

Dispensation


oikonomia (G3622) primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luk_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the epistles of Paul, who applies it

(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the gospel, 1Co_9:17 (RV, "stewardship," KJV, "dispensation");

(b) to the stewardship committed to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the church as the body of Christ, Col_1:25 (RV and KJV, "dispensation"); so in Eph_3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery";

(c) in Eph_1:10 and Eph_3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph_3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation."

In 1Ti_1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of (a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of (c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement or administration of affairs. Cf. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."


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Posted
34 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement or administration of affairs. Cf. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."

Thanks. Yes, that is how I understand that Greek word too - an administration, that is how God organizes and distributes to those in His house.


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Posted

1. Innocence (Creation to the Fall)

Key Figures: Adam and Eve

Scripture Reference: Genesis 1:28-30; Genesis 2:15-17

Description: This dispensation began with the creation of humanity and ended with the Fall. During this period, Adam and Eve lived in perfect harmony with God in the Garden of Eden. They were given simple commands: to be fruitful, multiply, have dominion over the earth, and not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their failure to obey resulted in the Fall and the end of this dispensation.

2. Conscience (Fall to the Flood)

Key Figures: Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah

Scripture Reference: Genesis 3:8-8:22

Description: Following the Fall, humanity was guided by their conscience, knowing good and evil. Sin escalated, leading to widespread wickedness. This period ended with God's judgment through the Great Flood, which cleansed the earth of its corruption, sparing only Noah and his family.

3. Human Government (Post-Flood to Babel)

Key Figures: Noah and his descendants

Scripture Reference: Genesis 9:1-11:9

Description: After the Flood, God instituted human government and gave Noah and his descendants the responsibility to establish justice and govern themselves. The confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel marked the end of this dispensation as humanity again strayed from God's commands.

4. Promise (Call of Abraham to the Exodus)

Key Figures: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph

Scripture Reference: Genesis 12:1-Exodus 19:25

Description: This dispensation began with God's call to Abraham, promising him land, descendants, and blessings. The patriarchs—Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph—lived under this promise. This period ended when the Israelites, now numerous, were enslaved in Egypt, and God called Moses to lead them out.

5. Law (Exodus to the Cross)

Key Figures: Moses, the Judges, the Kings, the Prophets

Scripture Reference: Exodus 20:1-Acts 2:4

Description: Beginning with the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai, this dispensation lasted until the crucifixion of Jesus. God gave the Israelites the Law, including the Ten Commandments, to guide their conduct. Despite repeated failures and divine discipline, this period highlighted the need for a Savior and ended with Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection.

6. Grace (Pentecost to the Rapture)

Key Figures: Jesus Christ, the Apostles, the Church

Scripture Reference: Acts 2:4-Revelation 3:22

Description: Also known as the Church Age, this dispensation began at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles, marking the birth of the Church. It is characterized by the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith. This period will end with the rapture of the Church, when believers will be taken up to meet Christ.

7. Millennial Kingdom (Second Coming to Final Judgment)

Key Figures: Jesus Christ, resurrected saints, believers

Scripture Reference: Revelation 20:1-6

Description: Following the Second Coming of Christ, He will reign on earth for a thousand years, a period known as the Millennium. This dispensation will be characterized by peace, righteousness, and the direct rule of Christ. It will end with the final rebellion of Satan, his defeat, and the Great White Throne Judgment, leading to the eternal state.

8. Eternal State (New Heaven and New Earth)

Key Figures: God, redeemed humanity

Scripture Reference: Revelation 21-22

Description: This final dispensation begins after the Great White Throne Judgment. God will create a new heaven and a new earth, where He will dwell with His people forever. This eternal state is marked by the absence of sin, suffering, and death, and the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan for humanity.

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Posted
8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Most of the teaching I've received in the past 50 years has been in the realm of the dispensationalism perspective.  However, I also hear some from the amillennialism perspective from time to time.  One radio brother (Steve Gregg) said today that the main teaching dispensationalism bases most everything on is that Israel and the church are viewed as two completely separate entities, and that ultimately Israel will rule upon the earth and the church will rule from the heavens. 

In looking up dispensationalism, the most common definitions I've found describing it are:

1.  God interacts and has dealt with His people in different ways throughout history.  For instance the Jew and the law, then Christians & grace; Therefore there is the Israel/Church differentiation (as mentioned above)

2. A literal interpretation of the bible

3. Belief in a literal return of Christ to set up a thousand year kingdom on earth

4. Rapture of the church prior to the millennial kingdom

Is this your understanding regarding what the basics of dispensationalism are about?

I think it's an error to try and categorize dispensationalism as if to say, "Dispensationalists all believe this or that!"  From what I've seen, there is a wide variety of viewpoints with it, for instance, I don't adhere to #1 above 100% and #2 might seem to need some further clarification/definition (and I also subscribe to some nuances with #4).  So hopefully we can avoid these kinds of hasty generalizations.  From what I've repeatedly seen, Christians can get a little over zealous when discussing this topic.  My hope is that we can have an intelligent, Christian discussion and avoid straying too much into the weeds or letting our flesh rule.  (If things get a tad too sideways, be aware there may be a gentle admonishment to bring us back into focus.)

Note: I know a little of the history of dispensationalism.  My purpose in this thread is not to hash out whether it originated with John Darby or was actually espoused by certain church fathers --> which supposedly would add or subtract from its credibility.  My purpose is to get a better understanding of what dispensationalism is and how others view it, and to examine the merits on its face . . . not about whether it was a recent invention or not - this, to me, is something of a non sequitur. 

BTW - I generally consider this topic as a nonessential or non-core item of the faith. Let's keep this in mind when interacting with other blood bought believers in Christ . . .

There are many points to consider in all of this, but I would just like to deal with one for the time being. 

Dispensationalism makes a distinction between The Old Covenant "Jews & Law" and "Christians & Grace" the problem with this view is that God's Word doesn't support this notion, in fact it refutes it and exposes it as false doctrine. 

We are not sons of God by nature; rather, we are sons of God by adoption, His beloved children in Christ. As such, we inherit all of the promises given to old covenant Israel.

Those promises of God that Israel would rule over her enemies and enjoy abundant covenant blessings (for example, Isa. 14:1–2)—those promises are for all of God’s people, the true Israel of God consisting of Jews and Gentiles who are united to Christ by faith alone. In Him we are the true Israel of God, heirs of the glorious destiny promised to God’s old covenant people (Zeph. 3:14–20).

Ultimately, the Israel of God is not an ethnic designation but a spiritual one. God’s covenant people includes all those who put their faith in the true fulfillment of Israel, Jesus our Lord. Together, Jews and Gentiles united to Christ have a common and exalted end. Let us rejoice in our status as the Israel of God and work to break down needless divisions in the body of Christ. God’s people are one Israel in the Savior.

Abraham was saved by placing his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, to him Jesus was the "promised coming Messiah". Those of us, under the New Covenant look back at what Jesus did and place our trust in His finished work of atonement. But we are saved exactly the same way and by the same Person. 

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom. 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

There is overwhelming Biblical evidence to prove that the Israel of God has nothing to do with ethnicity, so I can't see why people get caught up in this dispensational stuff.  

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Posted

While most dispensationalists believe in a pre-tribulational rapture, some hold to other rapture views such as mid-tribulational, pre-wrath, and post-tribulational. Thus, the pre-tribulational rapture view is not an essential doctrine of Dispensationalism even though most dispensationalists believe it.

 

23 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

There is overwhelming Biblical evidence to prove that the Israel of God has nothing to do with ethnicity, so I can't see why people get caught up in this dispensational stuff.  

Because the promise to Abraham was through blood linage... The Jewish people were chosen to bring about the Oracles of God's Word and that's enough for me to hold them in great esteem!

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Posted
9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Most of the teaching I've received in the past 50 years has been in the realm of the dispensationalism perspective.  However, I also hear some from the amillennialism perspective from time to time.  One radio brother (Steve Gregg) said today that the main teaching dispensationalism bases most everything on is that Israel and the church are viewed as two completely separate entities, and that ultimately Israel will rule upon the earth and the church will rule from the heavens. 

In looking up dispensationalism, the most common definitions I've found describing it are:

1.  God interacts and has dealt with His people in different ways throughout history.  For instance the Jew and the law, then Christians & grace; Therefore there is the Israel/Church differentiation (as mentioned above)

2. A literal interpretation of the bible

3. Belief in a literal return of Christ to set up a thousand year kingdom on earth

4. Rapture of the church prior to the millennial kingdom

Is this your understanding regarding what the basics of dispensationalism are about?

I think it's an error to try and categorize dispensationalism as if to say, "Dispensationalists all believe this or that!"  From what I've seen, there is a wide variety of viewpoints with it, for instance, I don't adhere to #1 above 100% and #2 might seem to need some further clarification/definition (and I also subscribe to some nuances with #4).  So hopefully we can avoid these kinds of hasty generalizations.  From what I've repeatedly seen, Christians can get a little over zealous when discussing this topic.  My hope is that we can have an intelligent, Christian discussion and avoid straying too much into the weeds or letting our flesh rule.  (If things get a tad too sideways, be aware there may be a gentle admonishment to bring us back into focus.)

Note: I know a little of the history of dispensationalism.  My purpose in this thread is not to hash out whether it originated with John Darby or was actually espoused by certain church fathers --> which supposedly would add or subtract from its credibility.  My purpose is to get a better understanding of what dispensationalism is and how others view it, and to examine the merits on its face . . . not about whether it was a recent invention or not - this, to me, is something of a non sequitur. 

BTW - I generally consider this topic as a nonessential or non-core item of the faith. Let's keep this in mind when interacting with other blood bought believers in Christ . . .

Dispensationalism is not a monolithic theological camp as you point out. The reference to John Darby has to do with what's known as premillennial dispensationalism, which is also not monolithic. 

Raptures are by and large teachings specific to premillennial dispensationalism as far as I know, brother. The basic definition of dispensationalism is thus, the belief that Israel and the Body of Christ are distinct. One may be a dispensationalist independent of premillennial, postmillennial, or amillennialistic considerations. 

This is indeed a non-essential matter for some of us, my friend. It certainly is to me. 

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Posted
56 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

I don't quite understand it in that way. I believe God gave the oracles to the Jews, which is quite different from the "Jews bringing abut the oracles" as you suggest.

God's Word is to mean more to us then all else that is in this place...

56 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

I personally have no respect for the jews at all, because they crucified the Lord Jesus Christ and they still reject Him to this day. I can have no fellowship with such enemies of God.

I suggest you understand God's way of handling His enemies here and now
Matthew 5:44 (KJV)

[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

58 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

In any case, Jesus favored the Gentiles after His own rejected Him. God put a curse on the Jews as we read in;

I do not find this in Scripture ...?

58 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

There are some Jews like Paul who converted from Judaism to Christianity, but it's only a remnant, a very small number. The rest of the Jews remain condemned for the rebellion and disobedience.

You won't find any scriptures to support the idea that ethnic Israelites have any special privileges, if anything they are at the bottom of the pecking order in Gods economy. 

all of this God cares not for ... it is going to be burnt up and forgotten
 

Knowledge will cease:

1Cor 13:8 

Rev 21:1-5

Isa 65:17

Some contend that the earth will be renovated but according to God's Word 'all things will be made new' ... God is going to make all things new cf. 

Isa 42:9

Isa 48:6

Isa 66:22

2 Peter 3:13

 

Isa 62:2

 

1.            new things, Isa 42:9  Isa 48:6

2.            new song, Isa 42:10 (cf. Rev 5:9 Rev 14:3)

3.            something new, Isa 43:19 (cf. Rev 3:12)

4.            new name, Isa 62:2 (cf. Isa 56:5)

5.            new heavens and a new earth, Isa 65:17 

                        Isa 66:22 (cf. 2 Peter 3:13)

 

The "new" day (cf. Rev 21:5) was, in reality, the day that God always wanted for humans, but the Fall in Gen 3 caused a terrible disruption! It is surely possible that the Bible's imagery of heaven is a new Garden of Eden (cf. Rev 21:2 ).

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Posted
  4 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

You won't find any scriptures to support the idea that ethnic Israelites have any special privileges, if anything they are at the bottom of the pecking order in Gods economy.

 

Israel is God's chosen people and always will be. We are just lucky  to be grafted in.

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Highlights the promise of authority and honor bestowed upon the apostles in the coming Kingdom. This verse reflects Jesus' assurance to His disciples that their faithfulness and commitment to following Him will be rewarded in the "regeneration," a future period of renewal and restoration when Jesus, the Son of Man, reigns in His full glory. The apostles are promised positions of leadership, symbolized by sitting on twelve thrones, where they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. This signifies a fulfillment of God's covenantal promises to Israel and underscores the continuity of God's redemptive plan through the nation of Israel. This as an affirmation of the apostles' (Ethnic Israelites) foundational role in the Church and the ultimate restoration of God's people, where divine justice and order will be established under the reign of Christ and His appointed leaders. This promise also serves to encourage believers to remain steadfast and faithful, knowing that their dedication to Christ has eternal significance and reward.

The apostles were/are ethnic Israelites. All twelve apostles chosen by Jesus were Jewish, born and raised in Israel. They were deeply rooted in the Jewish faith and traditions of their time. The term "ethnic Israelites" refers to the descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel, and the apostles were direct descendants of these tribes. This Jewish heritage is significant, as it fulfills the prophecies and promises made to the people of Israel in the Old Testament. Therefore, when Jesus speaks of the apostles sitting on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel in Matthew 19:28, it underscores their role as leaders within their own ethnic and spiritual heritage, continuing God's redemptive plan through Israel.

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