My Objections to the faith

[felix]

My apologies Itzomi. I don't want to come across as frustrated but this is really what I see. I do however still stand with what I have said. You should read the gospels and the epistles following that first without this lack of faith. Read it with a simple mind and heart as that of a child. The soulish man cannot understand the things of God. Soulish is being in your mind, emotions and will. But particularly in your mind. You believe in God....so then you must know that you can pray. Prayfully read the new testament.

Please understand that I was a Christian for many years, so there was a time when I DID try to read with a simple heart and childlike faith. I tried to suspend reason in order to accept things, or just tried to push it out of my mind... I desperately wanted to believe. So I have been there, done that.

I have always been drawn to God in some way, even though I was not raised in a religious home, so I'm not sure where that even came from! (Well, you would say the Holy Spirit had come a-callin'.) I still want to have fellowship with God! But I don't know who He is anymore? I miss the God I thought He was, I miss Jesus, but at the same time I'm relieved... But I don't know if what I believe now (or what I think I believe - I don't know anything for sure) is necessarily better. I don't even really want to believe what I do now. I want to believe God is a personal God who takes an intense interest in us, but I'm feeling more now like He is some generic spirit who doesn't get too involved. Just kind of in the background. Loving, for sure, but in a generic "I love everyone the same in a general sort of way." I hate the thought of this, but that's the feeling I'm getting these days. I am also under the impression reincarnation could be true, and that absolutely freaks me out. I have always hated the thought of that and still do. So, I am not believing only what I want to believe - I am believing things I wish weren't true.

I'm sorry Itzomi, but I doubt your sincerity in that you have already done "this". "This" being reading the New Testament. Your "desperately wanting to believe" is sort of like an oxymoron. The reason you can't believe in the first place is because you have chosen not to in the first place. Please remember what I said "Believe first to understand...and not understand to believe". I'll tell you...God is incomprehensible to man. God's ways who can discern? Who can understand? Again...the soulish man cannot receive the things of God. Only the Spiritual man. You should prayfully read the new testament. You want to know who God is? This is the way...

We all have something in us that draws us to God. It was built within us...only men often replace this with the things of the world. I dont want you to think through this that I want to argue with you Itzomi...but I seriously do feel that your integrity is not all here as it was in the beginning. Are you truly seeking God or are you here for other reasons?

Please don't overlook or take lightly what I have written to you. I mean each and every word I say.

Amen Blindseeker.

The differing hebrew words of "light" I had pondered about upon reading Itzomi's question but I didn't have my bible with the Hebrew concordance and dictionary. I am very much in line with what Adam Clark has said regarding this question.

Edited November 14, 2005 by felix

[nebula]

Itzomi -

You mentioned your doubts are because of questions.

I am wondering, did your questions that turned you from Christianity begin with questioning the Bible text,

or did they begin by events or circumstances?

Is your struggl that the Bible doesn't make sense,

or that your life doesn't make sense?

[Smalcald]

I don't really find those explanations satisfactory though. But I think there are seeming inconsistencies in the bible, I just don't find them overwhelming or that troubling, in general the stuff rings true for me. For me scripture seems on the whole to hold together like a true thing would. It does not hold together like a contrived thing would though, as if someone later put it all together making sure all of the little pieces fit exactly, a contrived story so to speak. It sounds like something real people actually did write down about what they really saw and heard at different times and places. I think those inconsistencies were evident to the early Church who put the New Testament together in the third century, but the funny thing is they left them in there anyway.

I like the way you look at it. If the Bible wasn't meant to be "written by God," then it would be a lot easier to let the inconsistencies slide. I wouldn't have a problem, in that case, if two accounts of the same event differed. Everybody sees things differently. Gosh, how much easier that would have made my Christian life if that were the case!

I don't know much about New Age reincarnation, but traditional reincarnation holds that people are reincarnated in a kind of hellish cycle. So if you see a poor person or a person with a horrible disease, well they deserved it, as they were rotten in a previous life. It seems like some sort of extremist Calvinism, but to me it really seems unsatisfactory, a little too convenient of an excuse for the acceptance of those things.

Yeah, I don't really understand it myself. Supposedly, living all these lives is supposed to help you 'learn lessons" and elevate your spirit or something. My problem with that is: If that's the case, why are people getting worse with each passing generation?

Hi itzome,

I do think the bible is our letter from God, our true connection with how God wants us to be and His message to us, our interaction with the divine. But God used many different people with different attitudes at different times and different places to write this letter. Some of it does seem inconsistent in the details, or contradictory, I don't think it really is though, it is probably just how we are reading it or understanding it. I just think it holds together nicely, like a real thing would.

For example you probably have noticed how the accounts of the resurrection in all four Gospels differ in their details. Now the Early Church could have simply edited this out, they had the opportunity, or they could have simply chosen one Gospel and claimed the rest were not part of the Cannon. But they didn't, they included all four and let them stand. This to me simply confirms the fact that these are true eyewitness accounts, written by people who are honestly trying to convey the power of what they saw and how they saw it. To me it confirms not denies their validity, as they all shed different light on parts of the account. Which makes sense if they really are witnessed accounts of Christ's life, different people, different personalities will emphasize different views, and I think God wanted us to have all of these views.

Yeah, I agree on the reincarnation, why do they keep going down the tube in the next life? My personal belief is that reincarnation at least in how they practice it in the Far East serves as a way for people to live with the abject poverty and misery of others who surround them. If they deserve it from a previous life it requires less worry on our part now to help them.

[BlindSeeker]

. . . For example you probably have noticed how the accounts of the resurrection in all four Gospels differ in their details. Now the Early Church could have simply edited this out, they had the opportunity, or they could have simply chosen one Gospel and claimed the rest were not part of the Cannon. But they didn't, they included all four and let them stand. This to me simply confirms the fact that these are true eyewitness accounts, written by people who are honestly trying to convey the power of what they saw and how they saw it. To me it confirms not denies their validity, as they all shed different light on parts of the account. Which makes sense if they really are witnessed accounts of Christ's life, different people, different personalities will emphasize different views, and I think God wanted us to have all of these views. . . .

Actually the Gospels account only appear to be different . . . but they actually work in a harmony to bring the whole picture together. It is as the scriptures says, "Line upom line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little..

Here's an old thread explaining it Trips to the Tomb.

Peace

BlindSeeker

[Itzomi]

I'm sorry Itzomi, but I doubt your sincerity in that you have already done "this". "This" being reading the New Testament. Your "desperately wanting to believe" is sort of like an oxymoron. The reason you can't believe in the first place is because you have chosen not to in the first place. Please remember what I said "Believe first to understand...and not understand to believe". I'll tell you...God is incomprehensible to man. God's ways who can discern? Who can understand? Again...the soulish man cannot receive the things of God. Only the Spiritual man. You should prayfully read the new testament. You want to know who God is? This is the way...

We all have something in us that draws us to God. It was built within us...only men often replace this with the things of the world. I dont want you to think through this that I want to argue with you Itzomi...but I seriously do feel that your integrity is not all here as it was in the beginning. Are you truly seeking God or are you here for other reasons?

Are you saying that I'm lying when I say I once (years ago) truly desired to believe in the Bible? And were you under the impression I came here in the beginning to "seek God" and now I'm not? I've explained why I'm here - not to come back to "the fold" but to discuss things we do have in common but, as I said, I see that Undecideds aren't allowed to add to the discussions except in the Outer Court.

I'm not sure what you want from me, either. If it's supposed to be "accept Christ or shut up" then I guess I'll keep quiet.

[felix]

I'm sorry Itzomi, but I doubt your sincerity in that you have already done "this". "This" being reading the New Testament. Your "desperately wanting to believe" is sort of like an oxymoron. The reason you can't believe in the first place is because you have chosen not to in the first place. Please remember what I said "Believe first to understand...and not understand to believe". I'll tell you...God is incomprehensible to man. God's ways who can discern? Who can understand? Again...the soulish man cannot receive the things of God. Only the Spiritual man. You should prayfully read the new testament. You want to know who God is? This is the way...

We all have something in us that draws us to God. It was built within us...only men often replace this with the things of the world. I dont want you to think through this that I want to argue with you Itzomi...but I seriously do feel that your integrity is not all here as it was in the beginning. Are you truly seeking God or are you here for other reasons?

Are you saying that I'm lying when I say I once (years ago) truly desired to believe in the Bible? And were you under the impression I came here in the beginning to "seek God" and now I'm not? I've explained why I'm here - not to come back to "the fold" but to discuss things we do have in common but, as I said, I see that Undecideds aren't allowed to add to the discussions except in the Outer Court.

I'm not sure what you want from me, either. If it's supposed to be "accept Christ or shut up" then I guess I'll keep quiet.

It's not "accept Christ or shut up". It's never been that. I was never bothered that you didn't accept the explanation. I, in fact, speak to many atheists and unbelievers, and I am not bothered personally that they do not accept my message. Midway I just detected that something was wrong in here. This is mainly why I responded in the manner that I did. I don't want to say you're trolling around here but that's what I feel. If I am in error truly and genuinely pray for the light of God to shine on me and correct me.

I do not think you have carefully read what I have written to you. You have avoided many of my questions to you and have asked questions that shows me that you have clearly missed my points. Do not consider what I have written to you as coming from Felix. Just see and consider it within yourself whether what is written is true. For when you read it in the light that it came from someone you think about their motives and implications...and thus you never consider whether the words are actually reality or not. That is what I want since you asked "I'm not sure what you want from me, either". It's not "accept Christ or shut up" but to actually examine closely what I have written. Because each time you have responded you have not shown that you've acknowledged everything else but only certain parts in which you could respond to in a manner that would favor your position.

I'll just speak concerning what I wrote to you in the last response...Why did I say "You should prayfully read the new testament. You want to know who God is? This is the way... " This is the way to know God. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. This is how we know who God is. Looking at Jesus you see the Father. Jesus's human living shows exactly who God is.

Why prayfully? Prayer is an exercise of the spirit. The scriptures need to be received by the spirit.

Ephesians 6:17-18

and take the helment of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, with all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit.....

This is to get out of your soul and into your spirit...but praying and meditating on the word. I'm not just suggesting this to you Itzomi but all who read this. Whenever we come into problems with scripture this is what we should do; and by doing this we can receive revelations that fixes these inconsistencies and even more. More than all...the scriptures become our life and reality and give us revelations of our situations.

I'm just being honest with you Itzomi...I simply don't feel there is true integrity here. If you know in yourself that I am wrong then you'll have to forgive me and ask God to reveal my error to me. There is no other way.

[Itzomi]

I do not think you have carefully read what I have written to you. You have avoided many of my questions to you and have asked questions that shows me that you have clearly missed my points. Do not consider what I have written to you as coming from Felix. Just see and consider it within yourself whether what is written is true. For when you read it in the light that it came from someone you think about their motives and implications...and thus you never consider whether the words are actually reality or not. That is what I want since you asked "I'm not sure what you want from me, either". It's not "accept Christ or shut up" but to actually examine closely what I have written. Because each time you have responded you have not shown that you've acknowledged everything else but only certain parts in which you could respond to in a manner that would favor your position.

To be honest, if I don't respond specifically to something, I'm usually thinking, "Holy crap, what the -? I can't believe this person actually believes this!" By ignoring it altogether I am trying to be polite, or I'm just too baffled by the logic that I'm rendered speechless. I appreciate the responses, but sometimes I just think it's better if I don't comment. I'm not saying these responses sound stupid or whatever, but they pretty much satisfy those who are already inclined to believe.

I don't want to say you're trolling around here but that's what I feel.

I'm just being honest with you Itzomi...I simply don't feel there is true integrity here. If you know in yourself that I am wrong then you'll have to forgive me and ask God to reveal my error to me. There is no other way.

What do you mean by "trolling"? That I am lying about everything? If a troll is someone who tries to post where they don't belong, then maybe you're right. Even so, is it Christlike to turn someone away or to question their integrity when you don't even know the person?

[Itzomi]

It was probably a mistake for me to come here. I don't know where I fit in anymore. I'm not a Christian (but still feel like one in some ways) yet posting on an Ex-Christian board is even worse. They're very hostile towards Christians and the atmosphere feels poisonous. The New Age believers are too whacked out for me.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who was nice enough to answer my questions. God bless!

[felix]

By ignoring it altogether I am trying to be polite, or I'm just too baffled by the logic that I'm rendered speechless. I appreciate the responses, but sometimes I just think it's better if I don't comment. I'm not saying these responses sound stupid or whatever, but they pretty much satisfy those who are already inclined to believe.

No, the things you did not respond to were things such as the soulish man cannot receive the things of God. This is actually a verse. I can see how to first believe and then understand instead of understand to believe doesnt make logical sense but this is truly how things are. What is it where you say ,"Holy Crap! I can't believe this person believes that!". All my responses to you concerning your situation have been biblical as well as others. My original response to your question was reaffirmed by what Blindseeker himself posted and on Adam Clark. Being that I do not know these brothers personally how is it that we can come to the same conclusions?

About believing first so that we may understand...We are like children who don't know better. Like a child who sticks toys into electrical outlets...his father tells him not to but the child does not understand why. We must first believe and receive and then we may understand. If that child did not listen to his father and continued sticking toys in electrical outlets he'd be dead.

I believe if we had continued in the fashion that we did...you would never have been edified in any way. You'd still be in the same place as in the beginning. If what I said concerning you isnt true then you shouldn't be mad. Have I turned you away? I've been responding to you consistently except you just keep avoiding things. If you don't believe something I urge you to not feel the need to be "polite" and just ask away. This I would rather you do than avoid things altogether.

[felix]

It was probably a mistake for me to come here. I don't know where I fit in anymore. I'm not a Christian (but still feel like one in some ways) yet posting on an Ex-Christian board is even worse. They're very hostile towards Christians and the atmosphere feels poisonous. The New Age believers are too whacked out for me.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who was nice enough to answer my questions. God bless!

Itzomi and for everyone else...we cant look for places where all we hear are good-feeling messages and things that never offend us. Or places where all people do is agree with each other and praise each other and "love" each other. It is better to receive correction than praise. Some people are afraid to correct anything in the church because they do not want to offend anyone. And pastors definetely don't want to offend their audience...or else they'd leave and go to another church. When their congregation is in sin the Pastor bats a blind eye. So long as they don't leave the church. Unfortunately...God is not happy at all. Sheep are being slayed in churches all over the world.

Personally, when I receive and take heed of correction I experience more life than when I receive compliments and praise. And of course there are times when others may try to correct me even though I wasn't wrong in the first place. Yet there is more life in forgiving them than in justifying myself before them.

Itzomi...I already know where you should belong. You should belong in Christ Jesus. He in you and you in Him. On earth you would belong to the Church...the spiritual Body of Christ. Christ is the true rest. In Him is life, peace, and reality.