Works III - The Origin of Good Works

[PATrobas]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Yes.

I'll go through the proofs again.
1. According to the grammar on Chapter 5:1 our Lord was speaking to His disciple. "...  and He taught THEM
2. Jesus referred to MY, YOUR and OUR Father. He could only say that if the disciples had been born to the Father
3. The Lord spoke of the Kingdom. You are only eligible for the Kingdom if you are born again (Jn.3:3) and baptized (Jn.3:5)
4. The men knew Jesus during their lifetime - doing works in His name
5. The men had power to do Christ's works. This only comes from the receiving of the Holy Spirit economically* (Act.1:8)
6. One can only receive the Holy Spirit economically* after being Baptized (Act.2:38, 19:1-7)
7. Jesus did not deny their claims.
8. Jesus refused the Kingdom to these men based on works
9. Not the works were judged but the will of the Father
10. At the Bema only Christians will be present (Rom.14:10, 2 Cor.5:10)
11. The following verses show that Jesus spoke to those who "heard His Words"
12. The word "know" is "ginosko" in Greek. It means "intimate knowledge". This gives the reason why men did wondrous works in Jesus' Name and were not within the will of the Father.They did not sit at His feet to learn when to apply the works.

* The Holy Spirit is given twice to a believer. Once to impart the divine life and rebirth to the believer (Jn.20:22, 30-31) and Once for power to serve (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). God's work on earth needs men who have the divine life INTERNALLY (Jn.3:6) and who have power OUTWARDLY. The Greek word for God's work on earth is "oikonomia" meaning "household management" of "dispensing"

Hey brother,

I'm not convinced these were Christians. It doesn't say they did the works of Christ. It says they did things 'in His name.' There are many of the world who claim to be Christian and do things in the name of Jesus (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) that are not born again. Satan can do miracles and he gives power to humans to imitate God's works. 2 Thes. 2:9-12 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie::12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." So, I hear what you are saying, and maybe you are right, but I just also know that doing something that looks Godly isn't always of God. And saying what you do is OK if done in Jesus' name doesn't cut it either; think Crusaders.

 

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, PATrobas said:

Hey brother,

I'm not convinced these were Christians. It doesn't say they did the works of Christ. It says they did things 'in His name.' There are many of the world who claim to be Christian and do things in the name of Jesus (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) that are not born again. Satan can do miracles and he gives power to humans to imitate God's works. 2 Thes. 2:9-12 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie::12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." So, I hear what you are saying, and maybe you are right, but I just also know that doing something that looks Godly isn't always of God. And saying what you do is OK if done in Jesus' name doesn't cut it either; think Crusaders.

 

Thanks for your nice courteous reply. Your objection has substance. I will answer it anon, but first we must consider the Words of our Lord Himself in Mark 16:17–18;

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

It is not just a matter of doing things in His Name. It is a matter of "wondrous works" (Matt.7:22). Five works are listed and each one is attributed to a Christian. Most crucial are three of them.
1. Casting out demons. Satan would never do this as his kingdom would crumble (Matt.12)
2. Only Christians spoke with foreign tongues without prior ability or schooling (Act.2, 10 & 19). Others must learn these languages
3. The only man to take up a serpent, be bitten and survive was Paul. He was known to be a Christian but did not mention Jesus' name
4. The Greek rendered "deadly" is rendered "poison" in other translations. But it is incorrect. The word "deadly" means it causes death. It does not have to be poison. The only one who drank a "deadly" drink in the Bible was Paul. He had the blood of Christians on his hands. When he drank the cup at the Lord's Table he was guilty of "not discerning the Body" - except if he had been forgiven. Then he became a testimony of propitiation - a sign of a BELIEVER
5. Try to find a counterfeit who healed th sick in Jesus' Name

Truly, wondrous works in Jesus' Name are a sign of BELIEVERS ONLY.

But suppose I grant you that three of my twelve proofs are weak. It does not matter because all is established by three (2nd Cor.13:1)

I understand your reluctance to embrace the proofs. Centuries of teachers know only "saved or not saved." But the Lord Jesus is not deciding who misses the Lake of Fire. He is deciding who gets to be co-king with Him ON EARTH. Faith is not addressed. The works are not denied. But the issue is; have these men proven to unquestioningly do the will of the Father. The answer is that they disqualified themselves for rule with Christ by being loose cannons. They were Believers. They had power. But through failure to be intimate with Christ they did the words of Christ when THEY wanted to.

[PATrobas]

54 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your nice courteous reply. Your objection has substance. I will answer it anon, but first we must consider the Words of our Lord Himself in Mark 16:17–18;

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

It is not just a matter of doing things in His Name. It is a matter of "wondrous works" (Matt.7:22). Five works are listed and each one is attributed to a Christian. Most crucial are three of them.
1. Casting out demons. Satan would never do this as his kingdom would crumble (Matt.12)
2. Only Christians spoke with foreign tongues without prior ability or schooling (Act.2, 10 & 19). Others must learn these languages
3. The only man to take up a serpent, be bitten and survive was Paul. He was known to be a Christian but did not mention Jesus' name
4. The Greek rendered "deadly" is rendered "poison" in other translations. But it is incorrect. The word "deadly" means it causes death. It does not have to be poison. The only one who drank a "deadly" drink in the Bible was Paul. He had the blood of Christians on his hands. When he drank the cup at the Lord's Table he was guilty of "not discerning the Body" - except if he had been forgiven. Then he became a testimony of propitiation - a sign of a BELIEVER
5. Try to find a counterfeit who healed th sick in Jesus' Name

Truly, wondrous works in Jesus' Name are a sign of BELIEVERS ONLY.

But suppose I grant you that three of my twelve proofs are weak. It does not matter because all is established by three (2nd Cor.13:1)

I understand your reluctance to embrace the proofs. Centuries of teachers know only "saved or not saved." But the Lord Jesus is not deciding who misses the Lake of Fire. He is deciding who gets to be co-king with Him ON EARTH. Faith is not addressed. The works are not denied. But the issue is; have these men proven to unquestioningly do the will of the Father. The answer is that they disqualified themselves for rule with Christ by being loose cannons. They were Believers. They had power. But through failure to be intimate with Christ they did the words of Christ when THEY wanted to.

Thanks. Interesting argument. I will next re-look at "I never knew you" and it's implications/meaning. I know you addressed it already but I need to examine for myself. As to healing, I remember what the the sons of Sceva tried in Acts 19:11-17. Blessings.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, PATrobas said:

Thanks. Interesting argument. I will next re-look at "I never knew you" and it's implications/meaning. I know you addressed it already but I need to examine for myself. As to healing, I remember what the the sons of Sceva tried in Acts 19:11-17. Blessings.

A most mature approach. Bravo!

[steve morrow]

FAITH  AND  WORKS 

 

GENESIS 22:1  and it came to pass after these things that  GOD  did tempt Abraham and said unto him Abraham and he said behold here I am

--22:2-- and he said take now thy son thine only son Isaac whom thou lovest and get thee into the land of Moriah and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of 

--22:3-- and Abraham rose up early in the morning and saddled his ass and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son and clave the wood for the burnt offering and rose up and went unto the place of which  GOD  had told him

--22:4-- then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off

--22:5-- and Abraham said unto his young men abide you here with the ass and I and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again unto you 

--22:6-- and Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it upon Isaac his son and he took the fire in his hand and a knife and they went both of them together 

--22:7-- and Isaac spake unto Abraham his father and said my father and he said here am I my son and he said behold the fire and the wood but where is the lamb for a burnt offering 

--22:8-- and Abraham said my son  GOD  will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering so they went both of them together 

--22:9-- and they came to the place which  GOD  had told him of and Abraham built an alter there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar upon the wood 

--22:10-- and Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife to slay his son 

--22:11-- and the angel of  THE  LORD  called unto him out of heaven and said Abraham Abraham and he said here am I 

--22:12-- and he said lay not thine hand upon the lad neither do thou any thing unto him for now I know that thou dearest  GOD  seen thou hast not withheld thy son thine only son from  ME 

--22:13-- and Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son 

 

JAMES 2:22 seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect

 

--5:8-- though  HE were a  SON  yet learned  HE  obedience by the things which  HE  suffered

--5:9--  and being made perfect  HE  became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey  HIM

 

ACTS 5:32 and we are  HIS  witnesses of these things and so is also the Holy Spirit whom  GOD  hath given to them that obey  HIM

 

LUKE 11:13 if you then being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children how much more shall your heavenly  FATHER  give the Holy Spirit to them that ask  HIM

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST